Flying height restrictions for planes under 7kg

[Simon Hall 2]

Looking at the CAA guide, it does not appear to give a restriction. Over 7kg is 400ft. I am very new to flying, but am now gaining confidence quickly and flying as carefully as I can and within my limits. I do think however that I possibly went over 400ft today. I am very lucky to have recently gained regular access to a very large area of agricultural land in a valley with great hillside launching on one side and a wide open huge flat field in the valley. I am far away from any houses, but the site is on route and within a few miles of a local airport. I fly a Parkzone Radian.

[Keith Simmons]

Hi Simon. Does the aircraft overfly your field on approach or take off from the local airport?, ie has it got a runway or is it a large open grass field where the aircraft take off & land into the wind? If yes then the height restriction will be lower than 400ft. Inquire at the local airport for the maximum safe height for your field.

Keith

[cymaz]

If you live in the area of an airfield open to full size aircraft then they should have a NOTAM about your activities.

[Malcolm Fisher]

Simon, much depends on just how near the airport is. From memory if you are over around two and a half miles away you should be OK unless as Keith says you are under a flight path.

Some years ago, the field I flew on was just outside this limit, but we informed the airport's ATC where we were and the times we were flying.

Sometimes light aircraft en route to the airport, where there was/is a flying school, came down quite low seeming to want to have a look at what we were doing. This usually generated a call from us to ATC and other planes made a detour round out patch. Presumably the instructors were told about our activities and avoided directly overflying our field. We always kept a lookout for such full size planes and came down low or landed whenever there was one about.

HTH, Malcolm

[John Privett]

Simon, in brief models over 7kg are restricted to 400 feet in uncontrolled airspace. In controlled airspace they may only fly if "the permission of the appropriate air traffic control unit has been obtained", and are subject to whatever height restrictions air traffic control specify.

Models under 7kg. do not have any specific height limits, however Articles 138, 166 and 167 of the Air Navigation Order do apply to models. Flying at an inappropriate height could cause you to be in breach of one or more of those Articles - eg. "A person must not recklessly or negligently cause or permit an aircraft to endanger any person or property." and "The person in charge of a small unmanned aircraft may only fly the aircraft if reasonably satisfied that t he flight can safely be made."

There's lots more detail in CAP658, which gives guidance on how avitaion law applies to model flying.

[Simon Hall 2]

Below is a Google Earth pic of my main flying site (bottom right, ringed in red) and the end of the Newquay Cornwall airport landing strip, top centre left. Planes will approach from the far right centre of this pic, so not directly in my path although I am sure they are certainly under 1000 feet. I just worry seeing them coming in to land when when I am flying at altitude.

Edited By Simon Hall 2 on 28/09/2014 22:32:52

[cymaz]

Simon, I know that area. And you're right planes are low when coming into land if the wind is from the west/ north west.

Do you fly on your own?? If not then it might be wise to have a look out.

I have flown with friends over by Bocconoc Estate by Middle TapHouse. We have to be careful sometimes with low flying helicopters or the occasional jet!

Just for piece of mind, though, get a spotter if you are worried. Any model would do serious damage to an aero engine.....I wouldn't want to pick up the bill

Edited By cymaz on 28/09/2014 22:50:52

[Dave Hopkin]

Posted by cymaz on 28/09/2014 22:44:32:.I wouldn't want to pick up the bill

Edited By cymaz on 28/09/2014 22:50:52

Or the potential prosecution under the Book of CAP Chapter 658 verse 138!!!

"Thou shalt not recklessly or negligently beget damage or bring peril upon an aircraft"

A near miss could be construed as a breach of 138

[Peter Jenkins]

Simon, it is not just a question of whether it looks like you are interfering with aircraft on approach. All aerodromes have an air traffic zone (ATZ) around them that extends from ground level to 2,000 ft for a distance that varies from 2 miles to much further. You, or your club, need to make contact with them to establish whether you are operating within their ATZ. If you have access to an up-to-date aeronautical chart this will also show the extent of the ATZ. Mu gut feel looking at your Google Earth post is that you are operating within their ATZ. So, it would be best if you contacted the Air Traffic Officer and discussed what you are doing to establish that they are content with you operating where you are. If they are unhelpful, then approach the BMFA for help in resolving the issue as we do have rights to operate model aircraft and they cannot just say no unless there are clear safety issues e.g. you are on the runway centre line and operating in the airspace through which a passenger carrying aircraft will be flying. Be absolutely clear though, that if you are operating within their ATZ you must speak to them as soon as possible to clarify the issue.

[Peter Miller]

When we set up our flying field over four years ago we informed Wattisham because we get a lot of Apaches training in the area. They said that theywould put out a NOTAM.

A recent check by one of our members could find no NOTAM. but presumably the helicopter pilots are advised.

90% of our flying is on SUnday anyway.

What we have noticed is that an awful lot of light aircraft seem to use our very distinctive flying field as a turn point. They come along and then turn over the field.

[Keith Simmons]

ATZ is a circle from the centre of the runway 2 miles out from the surface to 2,000ft plus a wedge from the runway ends projecting out for miles. I doubt you will be allowed to fly your models from your field at all.

you may be allowed to fly if it is at right angles to the runway with the pits to the direction of the airport at the edge of the ATZ, but you must obtain permission first

[Simon Hall 2]

Thanks all for your help. It does not look good though based on what has been said so far. I will try to contact the airport today. If anyone can find an up to date map of what would be the no fly zone, I can then look for an alternative as near as I can to my home.

[Dave Hopkin]

Simon you have probably heard it before but joining a club would give you access to a flying field and if its BMFA affiliated insurance too (and given where you have been flying near Newquay Airport NOT having insurance would be a big worry to me, there are a couple of clubs not so far from you

St Austell Club **LINK**

Truro **LINK**

It might be worth while contacting them?

[Simon Hall 2]

I probably will join a club at some stage, but fancied having a crack at it on my own first. I just like the idea that I can go somewhere on my doorstep, sometimes alone and without restrictions. It was originally supposed to be a casual fun thing, but I never realised there was so much to it. Still fun though! Anyway, just had a chat with a nice chap from ATC at Newquay airport. He gave me some useful info and advice. He flies model planes himself.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I'd be interested in some details of your ATC man's feedback. When our club was acquiring a new field within airspace controlled by a fairly large airport some years ago, they stated that they had no control over smaller models when consulted for their opinion, which backs up my understanding.

My interpretation would be that unless you have any reason to suspect that you are endangering aircraft you are free to operate. Assuming you are not close to the airport on the extended centreline and did so, then it would be sensible to adhere to the 400 ft AGL limit applied to large models out of controlled airspace which will give 100 ft vertical separation from any legally flown full size aircraft operating normally within the ATZ. With telemetry, this is now perfectly practical - I suspect most pilots' estimates would be fairly inaccurate.

You will know how much traffic is in your area but informing ATC of your operation seems a reasonable precaution which would improve your case in establishing that you had taken due care to ensure safe operation in the unfortunate event of an Airprox report.

[Simon Hall 2]

Martin, ATC basically said that they operated a 2.5 mile ATZ, but asked for my exact location. My flying area is 2.2 miles away and in a valley. He asked questions about the model of plane and my flying experience. He also took my contact details, which I was happy to give. I told him that I am observant of air traffic and use my smartphone as an additional aid to show domestic flight info. He mentioned the air ambulance helicopter which is stationed near the main runway and about other low flying craft to be aware of like the classic airforce etc. He seemed very knowledgeable of the area and said that if I wanted to fly there, I have to call ATC and advise of my planned start flight time and estimated duration each time. I was also told to contact them when I actually finish flying. I think he understood that I am trying to be sensible about this and he said that if I stay within 200 feet altitude at this site, I should be ok. He strongly pointed me in the 'join a club' area as well as the usual rules and regs for flying model aircraft.

[Adrian Smith 1]

All very interesting, however, I know this is a bit tongue in cheek but anybody tell how I can tell whether I am at 200 or 400 feet? I don't have any sort of telemetry gear, indeed I am not sure if it provides this info. Which makes this all very arbitrary and unable to confirm to the powers that be .

[Simon Hall 2]

Adrian, I was thinking the same thing about guessing the exact height, but I will try to use a rough estimate based on my surroundings. I think I can approximate a couple of hundred feet, but above that when the plane gets small I would have no idea. I was already considering buying one of those hobbyking altimeters just to see my altitude after flying anyway.

[Simon Chaddock]

Simon

I would strongly recommend the HK altimeter. Of course it does not give you a reading in real time but it can tell you vary accurately how high it actually was at every point in the flight.

I was surprised how small things are even at 400'. The highest I have got with a 60" plane is 1600' and at that height you really didn't want to take you eyes of it for even a second otherwise there was a good chance you wouldn't find again.

[Simon Hall 2]

Thanks Simon, I will buy this now. I am getting really hooked on this new to me RC flying hobby, it's taking over! Not sure if it's because the Radian is such a great and forgiving plane to fly for a total beginner like me. Today in particular gave me such a buzz flying. Perfect conditions and the plane was just hanging around for as long as I wanted with minimal effort and was so easy to control. After a couple of disastrous maiden flights in previous weeks, I now feel much more in control and have learned so much from this forum and the invaluable hours on the Phoenix simulator. Personally, I think wind direction and speed are two of the most important things for a beginner to understand. These translate a little different in real flying compared to simulation too.

Edited By Simon Hall 2 on 29/09/2014 20:44:29

[Simon Hall 2]

Just out of interest, I used the circle radius tool on Google Earth to show where the 2 mile (yellow) and 2.5 mile (red) ATZ zones are from the exact centre of the longest main runway. From what I have read, some aerodromes use 2 miles and some 2.5 miles. Newquay ATC said 2.5 to me. I wonder if I would have got away with 2 miles if it was another airport. You can see my flying site in red just on the line!

[John Privett]

Simon, now that I think about it, there's a club that operates near Heathrow. The nearest part of the area they fly in is less than a mile due north of runway 27R. But of course with the runway aligned E-W there should never be any full-size traffic into or out of LHR anywhere near where they fly. I don't know if they have a limit on the weight of models they fly, they do have a 200 foot height limit though.

[Dave Hopkin]

Simon

What doesnt help is your site is almost in line of the main runway axis

Plus I dont know if the ATC Zone is measured from a central point or from the perimeter.... I am guessing the perimier for the simple reason that if it were from a central point then some parts of the actual airport might well lie outside the zone!

BTW you can get a real time telemetry data feed from the aircraft to your RX - but at the cost or cost and weight

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Looking at the Googlemap view, it might be that aircraft taking off in Simon's direction would do a noise abatement turn away from the built up area - putting them quite close to his site.

There is definitely a site virtually next door to LHR (the Little Harlington club) - which illustrates the point that just because a site is within an ATZ, it doesn't mean that there is an automatic case of endangerment.

[David P Williams]

Simon - I reckon we probably flew over your field on our curving approach when I flew in the Classic Airforce Dragon Rapide at Newquay last year! This shot was later in the approach path.