Eric Brown

[Andrew Price 2]

So. Someone please tell me. Why no knighthood for Captain Brown? Would his naval rank alone, or the some of the specific positions he held before he finished, normally have ensured him of one. The unprecedented test flying should have ensured recognition, after all almost all of the politicos that made the decisions we abhor were, I expect.

[Simon Chaddock]

If my memory serves me correctly the Wilson government was given a stark choice by the IMF (and the Americans) - cut spending or face devaluation and rampant inflation.

The fact that a large proportion of our remaining military spending would have to go 'across the pond' was not lost on the Americans even if they did give us a good deal on Polaris - and even that was probably to their advantage as they politically needed a second strong 'independent' but secure nuclear equipped voice at the international table.

Personally I suspect the M52 would have struggled to go truly supersonic, at least initially, not because of the airframe (which was remarkably well designed for supersonic flight) but simply due to the limited thrust from the Power Jets W.2/700. Effective after burning took some time to develop.

As for Eric Brown a truly remarkable career. A case of the right man at the right place at the right time. A situation that is most unlikely ever to be repeated. 2407 deck landings Wow!

[Peter Jenkins]

BEB, I think you are comparing apples with oranges in your depiction of modern combat aircraft and the M52. You really need to read Eric's book on the M52 since he was closely involved in the project from around 1944 till the project was cancelled. I was shocked when I read it! The specification for the M52 was written in 1942 (!) and, had the funding request in 1946 been met, the M52 was scheduled to fly some 3-5 months later i.e. still in 1946. The design speed was 1,000 mph and as was shown by the one successful flight of a 1/3 scale M52 which reached just under 1,000 mph, the design was right and Farnborough was wrong in the assessment of supersonic drag. The guy who was going to risk his life in flying this aircraft was confident in the design and shocked when it was cancelled and has shown that the reasons given were wrong. The proof of the pudding was the speed achieved by the 1/3 scale model.

At that stage, only the British had a design of a jet engine with a reheat capability that tests showed could achieve the required thrust for going supersonic (albeit in a shallow dive) and then continuing up to the design speed. I would disagree with Colin's point about wing sweep as clearly there is significant more wing sweep on the aircraft you have pictured all of which were designed from the late 80s onwards - almost 40 years later than the M52. What about the F104 Starfighter see below:

Not anything like as swept back as an F86 or Hunter but still capable of Mach 2 +. And yes, you can poke fun at the crash rate for the Luftwaffe F104s but the USAF didn't suffer the same attrition rate. The Starfighter, like the M52, worked on the basis of a very sharp leading edge with an attached shock wave to reduce supersonic drag.

It was not until the mid 50s that the Fairey Delta 2, a highly swept delta wing planform, was able to exceed 1,000 mph and take the world air speed record. Consider what progress might have been made had the M52 project been funded to first flight and further development in the light of the German swept wing programme taken on board. By the way, the FD2 programme included modifying one airframe to test the ogival wing planform that RAE proposed for Concorde while the other one was used to correlate the actual supersonic flight performance with that of the model in the Bedford supersonic tunnel. That information was subsequently used as the baseline for the Typhoon aerodynamics - an excellent return on the investment in the FD2 programme. Just think what the M52 programme might have led to. I am not being blindly patriotic in thinking that with a little forethought and funding the UK aerospace industry would have had such a huge advantage in supersonic fighter design that we might still be in the forefront of the fighter business. However, politicians are really only focused on a 5 year horizon (often less) and so it's more appealing to pour millions into dead end industries like shipbuilding and steel making as that employed more people than the then aircraft industry and look where that got us. Despite that, aerospace is the UK's second highest export earner after the Pharmaceutical industry. Just think where we would have been if we had fielded a 1,000 mph fighter by 1949 - quite a realistic timescale for those times.

[Peter Jenkins]

Simon, just spotted your post. Remember that the M52 was cancelled in 1946 and that Harold Wilson had his problem with the IMF in 1963 ish (I think). Not that the UK wasn't broke in 1946 either!

I'm not sure what grounds you have for disbelieving Eric Brown's view on the available power from the Whittle engine. Have you read his book on the topic? He seemed satisfied that the power was available provided that you augmented it by entering a shallow dive to go supersonic, thereafter, the drag was less and so the Brown thought it would reach the design speed. Of course, we'll never know for sure now.

[Simon Chaddock]

Peter

I was not lumping Harold Wilson with the M52 only the need for the severe cost cutting that afflicted all UK governments post war and still does!

I don't doubt the M52 was seen as unnecessary research into true super sonic flight when the more pressing issue was to overcome the problems of flying a 'practical' fighting aircraft in the transonic region.

The American of course could afford to do this sort of research with the Bell X-1 series which incidentally used aerodynamics not that dissimilar to the M52.

I would not question Eric Browns view that with the design thrust the M52 could have gone super sonic but simply whether the W2/700 would have been capable of produced it in 1946.

The Bell X-1 had a similar all up weight with rocket motors that not only produced 50% more thrust (6000 lbs) but that thrust would be little troubled by the effect of supersonic flight, unlike an air breathing turbo jet.

Question. Has a centrifugal compressor jet engine ever flown supersonic in level flight?

[Colin Leighfield]

For me a swept wing is one in which both leading and trailing edges are swept back. I don't count a wing with sharp taper on both LE and TE as a swept wing. A delta is something else and I accept that. Perhaps the most prolific fighter in the last 30 years, still in production, is the F16 and to me that is a straight wing aircraft, I've never seen it described as anything else.

Simon, I don't know of any centrifugal jet engine that has gone supersonic in level flight, but that's because the second generation more powerful jets were going the axial flow route anyway. There's no reason why a centrifugal motor couldn't do it and the developed Whittle engine with after burning would have done that. Bearing in mind that the the later in air model tests showed that drag on the M52 was significantly lower than assumed in the numbers used for the performance calculations, pretty much confirms that the expectations were realistic. As first flown in 1946 the full power engine would not have been used and supersonic flight would have only occurred in a dive. The full power engine was intended to take it through Mach 1 in level flight. As far as I'm concerned, Eric Brown is definite about all of this and that's good enough for me. 1000 mph might have been 1947/1948, but how much more useful would that data have been than was produced from a totally untypical rocket powered special operating in the stratosphere and incapable of getting up there without an air launch.

It's all speculation anyway now, but there's no harm in giving credit where it's due and the recent publication of this book on the M52 with information that hadn't been released before is quite a revelation. It's clear that Eric Brown wanted the record putting straight while he was still able to do it. As far as I'm concerned he has far more credibility than me or any of us commenting on this forum and that's good enough for me, I don't think you'd disagree with that.

[Cliff Bastow]

I agree with you colin. Look at the starfighter above, its a straight wing with a taper not a swept wing.

I think people are confusing a swept leading edge with a swept wing and the two things are different.

A swept wing has both leading and trailing edges swept back ie Lightning and Hunter.

I must agree about Eric Brown, what a career. Idont think we will see the likes again.

[Terry Mills]

re Eric Brown

from the 2007 paperback - page 108 - photo of Me 163b

caption : "flown in towed and gliding flight by the author, the Walter rocket motor having been removed and an auto observer installed in its place to record test data"

There is a Desert Island Disc program available still where Cecil Lewis, early pioneer and author of Saggitarius Rising, reminisces on his life.

Deifinately worth a listen.

[Andrew Price 2]

Terry.

Read on a couple more pages and he will describe to you, in some detail, his Me163 powered flight

[Piers Bowlan]

F-16, F-18, = cropped delta plan form - not swept.

I am glad Eric has put the record straight with his 'M.52 Gateway to supersonic flight' a very interesting read and a sad indictment of British politicians past. Recommended.

Also essential reading if you are into Aviation history is Empires of the Clouds. Pity politicians don't seem to learn from their mistakes. TSR2, Fairy Delta, Fairy Rotordyne - all cancelled, to name but three. Great decisions like giving Whittle's Powerjets engine technology to the Americans under the 'Tizard Mission' and later Lord Attlee/Lord Stokes supplied a number of Nene engines to Stalin's Russia. I bet the Americans loved us in the Korean War when there Sabres were up against Nene (derivative) powered Mig.15s! Rant over, I promise!

[Tony Bennett]

read "project canceled by Derek Wood," ok it only goes up to the 70's but you will be surprised by the amount of technical information we "gave" to the Americans with nothing back from them in turn.

[Andrew Price 2]

Colin. It was interesting to see the comparison of German and US experiences with the Starfighter. Was there a similar disparity in the operation of the Sabre in the US & UK?

What do you mean Piers "in the past"? They are still at it. They always will be. Look at all the wastage and controversy surrounding the new carriers and their aircraft. Scrapping Arc Royal and Harriers then getting involved in the tactical bombing in Libya. They the combination is tailor made for the current ops over Iraq.

[Piers Bowlan]

Well yes, Andrew, I did think of that and I could have gone on and on ad nausiam but I thought I better keep my rant short for fear of getting in trouble with the Mods!

[Andrew Price 2]

Piers,The mods and I are probably amazed that this thread - started as a heads up for a Desert Island Discs episode has developed sure long legs. I was going to mention some other things such as the Rotadyne which was an obvious dead end. I saw it at Farnborough and I'm sure my ears are still suffering. They much preferred to be deafend by the Vulcan!!

I've scurried along to eBay to see if copies of Mr Woods words of wisdom are available there. Some clown in Bath is asking £55 for a musty smelling copy. Two others are £30 which is more than I'm prepared to pay. I'll play a waiting game methinks.

By the way. It was not only the USA that benefited from gifts of the free transfer of first class UK research & technology. The withdrawal of funding for the FD2 lead to an offer from that nice M. Dassault to make his test excellent facilities available. Hes been selling loads of his excellent delta winged aircraft ever since!!

[Tony Bennett]

you can borrow mine if you like.

[Andrew Price 2]

Thank you Tony A truly amazing offer which I'll be so pleased to take up, thank you again. Will pm you.

[Piers Bowlan]

Fairy Rotodyne - obvious dead end! Couldn't let that stand! Although horrendously noisy a bigger issue was probably the political one. The government of the day (bless em!) wanted to rationalise British manufacturing. Westlands were favoured by the 'top neddies' in Westminster and so swallowed up Sanders Roe. By denying Fairy funding and sales by cancelling orders it was able to subsequently absorb Fairy too.

Westlands funded by the UK government bought heavily into Sikorsky helicopter technology in the form of the American Sikorsky S.51 Dragonfly. The piston engined S51 carried a pilot and three passengers sedately along at 80kts. The Rotordyne in comparison carried two pilots and 40 passengers at 166kts. BEA ordered 12 provisionally and the RAF 20. An American company in New York had options for a number as well as the American military were interested in building 200 Kavan licence built models. It was not to be. BEA cancelled as the Rotodyne was 'not big enough' (a larger one was on the drawing board) and so did the RAF. The American interest dissolved when the project lost government funding. In those days people were satisfied if an aircraft could safely take off and then land in another part of the Empire. Noise pollution is a modern concept!

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 17/11/2014 14:01:54

[Andrew Price 2]

Thanks for that piers. Very interesting.

Also interesting is to be reminded of BEA/BOAC and their ability to have manufacturers produce a/c to spec's that were virtually unsalable elsewhere. VC10 to name a few?

[J D 8]

Black Arrow was another project canceled just as it was reaching fruition,an orbital launch platform, "what's the use of that putting things into space."There are about 2400 satellite's in earth orbit and someone was payed to put them there.

[Andrew Price 2]

Black Arrow. I feel another crumble coming on. Don't get me going!!

[Tony Bennett]

go to the isle of wight and see all that remains of the rocket testing facility they built.

 

 

Edited By Tony Bennett on 17/11/2014 15:47:42

[Andrew Price 2]

Was on docu on TV a short while ago with pics of it in it's hayday. Mutter mutter,

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

passionate thread lads

John

[Dave Hopkin]

Blue Steel II cancelled in favour of Skybolt

But its not just us who get stitched up by the Septics there's the Avro Canada Arrow.......

Bath water and babies springs to mind............

[kc]

Couldn't the moderators separate the " Lost Causes of British Aviation" discussion from the Eric Brown part so that the heading reflects the current discussion? There could be many more people who want to discuss cancelled projects and I predict this will go on for months!