John Muir Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Well said Lee. The people who volunteer for these roles deserve our thanks. It's also worth remembering that they are hobbyists just like the rest of us and that setting the qualifying bar to serve in these roles too high could lead to an exodus of the current volunteers and a lack of new ones in the future. Certainly in an ideal world the examiners would be capable pilots and able to fly a test schedule at the drop of a hat, but it's better to have a less than perfect system which is functional and busy, than an idealistic one that can't function because of a lack of bodies or unrealistic standards. A small dose of realism and pragmatism needs to be applied. I do feel that deselecting volunteers by secret ballot is bit off though. Surely these chaps should at least know what they did wrong, or did to upset someone. How can they ever hope to sort the problem out if they don't know what it is. I'm not sure how this can be an elected role anyway. How can club members excercise any judgement in the selection process if they don't know the people they are being asked to judge. Or do they even get a say? Is the decision made at committee level? Also, how can anybody be sure that the delegates actually vote the way their club instructed them to if the ballot is secret? Dodgy system if you ask me. Why not just vote for somebody trustworthy to adminster the system locally then let him get on with it. He could be the Area Grand Examiner (AGE - appropriate perhaps) or maybe Area High Examiner or Grand High Examiner...........or something. Sorry, got a little carried away there, but you get the drift. By the way, I'm in Scotland and not a member of the BMFA so feel free to ignore these comments. Interesting topic though and a good debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 John, many of your suggestions are actually in place. Each area has a scheme controller and CE candidates have to submit a CV and satisfy the controller that they are a suitable person before the recommendation is forwarded to the BMFA for ratification.. Although the Area may have voted by secret ballot, I'd hope they would have discussed the matter fully before voting. Whether or not they voted impartially is not something to speculate on but some feedback might have clarified the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Muir Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Thanks for the clarification Martin. That does beg the question if there is a scheme controller, then why is there also a vote? Isn't that likely to cause conflicts? Is this normal procedure? As I say, I'm a member of the SAA so I have no personal stake in this, but I am interested. Hope nobody minds me sticking my oar in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 In my understanding, it's the Area's job to decide on the number of CEs needed and deal with any "political" or geographical decisions and the co-ordinator's responsibility to confirm the candidate's "technical" competence. There shouldn't be any conflicts - the referred candidate either comes up to scratch as a CE or doesn't and is rejected at the scheme co-ordinator stage for what should be sound reasons. You can read the complete procedure from page 58 of the BMFA Handbook... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extra slim Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Do you know what, members at my club in the north west have been trying to get me to go for my examiners. I'm early 40's, B cert, been flying for 30yrs....and all this type of nonsense, underhand political back biting, rule book quoting, points scoring is EXACTLY why it is the last thing on my mind... ...totally dissolutioned with the way our hobby is going at this level...... Edited to remove insulting language Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 09/12/2014 23:23:02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben goodfellow 1 Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 EXTRA SLIM couldnt agree more ,, i too thought this was a HOBBY we did to enjoy and relax.. i must be wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazza58 Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Ha ha ha Nice one Slim...best post of the thread. Still loving flying though Gazza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Gorham_ Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Well actually some of us find that helping other flyers to be a rewarding part of the hobby. Seeing someone who you have taught to fly master their model and then feel confident enough to tackle a test of their flying and then pass successfully is as rewarding for me as building or flying any of my own models. Hence we feel motivated enough to become examiners and/or instructors. Edited By Alan Gorham_ on 09/12/2014 21:53:10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extra slim Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Mr Gorham....WOAH. I've hooked a live one......I have probably taught as many people as you, teaching since the age of 11....and am an instructor..... Edited for insulting language Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 09/12/2014 23:25:02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Hardly! Becoming an examiner involves a single meeting with an ACE - all of whom that I've met are knowledgeable RC enthusiasts. The only reason an area - and please don't tar all areas with your mucky brush - can be operated by old duffers is if there's apathy within the membership. Have you considered doing something positive yourself? Edited By Martin Harris on 09/12/2014 22:36:44 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Gorham_ Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Or it stops people in your club from being able to take a test 'cos you're too selfish to put up as an examiner. The original point of the thread was for Andy to find out if people think that area chief examiners should be able to demonstrate the manoeuvres contained in the tests they are eligible to take. Since the BMFA area appoints or re-appoints the ACEs at the area AGM there has to be some process of accountability to all the clubs in the area who may need to call on the services of an ACE at some point (for example to test club examiner candidates that area clubs put forward). I'm totally disillusioned at the lack of engagement some model flyers show.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extra slim Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Many many times Martin, but am continually faced with edited highlights of this post, and fellow senior members who have tried, failed, got all the T shirts, got all the sad similar stories to these two poor guys. I love my flying, but I won't move house to a different area!...I'm not naive enough to presume it is every area....my posts are a bit tongue in cheek to emphasise a point, and I'm not ageist as I have learnt and continue to learn from my peers....but there is a face fit, old boys network, trouser leg rolled up, right surname, etc etc....and I would rather not set myself up to be treated as these two guys. I'll stick to my happy place....teaching...flying...HAVING FUN and relaxing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Well, I can't see any reason to get involved in politics in order to be an effective club examiner. Your club nominates you and once you've passed with a ACE as long as your club wants you, there's little reason why your rating shouldn't be renewed. At the end of the day, it really depends on your and your club's requirements and your personal circumstances. If you have enough examiners within the club, then just carry on with the rewarding work of instructing and enjoy your flying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Can new posters, possibly not familiar with the tone and rules of this forum, please bear in mind that no matter how strongly you disagree with another person's or group's point of view your counter argument needs to be in temperate and reasonable terms. Insulting and disparaging remarks - aimed at any group, right or wrong - will not be tolerated. A full version of the forum's code of conduct can be found here. Thanks for your co-operation. BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avtur Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Unless I'm much mistaken this entire thread arises from a decision made by secret ballot, without that decision being made I'm not sure the OP would have had cause to make the first post. Personally I find the idea of a secret ballot rather unpleasant, it detracts from accountability and since there appears to have been no subsequent explanation as to reasons behind the decision it becomes a situation that is likely to arouse some peoples suspicion, which indeed it has done. It also appears that different areas approach decision making in different ways, that the secret ballot is not used everywhere, should that inconsistency be a cause for concern? Clearly this thread has exposed some strongly held views on the matter of an ACE's ability to 'demonstrate'; may be it s good to have the discussion, time will tell. Is there any chance that the root cause, the secret ballot and resulting decision, will ever be explained to BMFA members, I think that would help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn K Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I have written to the BMFA asking why on this occasion a secret ballot was held. It will be interesting to see what the reply will be. I have also asked for a copy of the minutes of the meeting Martyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Marshall Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 A very interesting thread. I thought I would answer Andy’s original question from the point of view of someone working his way up. It is my plan to get my heli B ASAP and then on to club examiner, as the club I am in has none at the moment. (They are encouraging me in this pursuit- it is not for personal reasons that I am doing it.) It seems to me that there are three very different skill sets involved here, and I think this differentiation is true for all sorts of activities, and is not in any way unique to model aircraft. Those skills are piloting ability, the ability to teach piloting, and the skill to assess ability, not only of piloting but of safety and correct behaviour in a club environment. These three skills are by no means mutually exclusive, but they are completely separate, and I do not think that you cannot teach or assess without possessing the skills themselves. Nor is possessing that ability at any level sufficient in itself to allow adequate execution of the other two. Without getting bogged down in the details of specific examples I feel that there are plenty of other activities that support this view and which seem to have a working system based on it. Having said that I think that there are benefits to instructors and examiners having reached a reasonable level of competence at some time, but I don’t think there is a necessity for them to maintain it. I do not know Andy personally but all the evidence points to him being one of those rare people who can do all three to a high standard. That someone like him can apparently be summarily de-ratified without explanation or opportunity to defend himself is worrying. I think that with the system as it stands the distinction between instructing and examining is not well enough defined. I am surprised that ACEs also hold the post of ACI. There is no reason why they should not but it should not be automatic. Andy, I would support you 100% on a requirement for regular re-assessments of ACEs and AFIs. Those being separate assesments. And examiners at all levels come to think of it. I do not however, think that test demonstrations should necessarily form part of this, particularly for examiners. The abilty to instruct or to examine correctly should be checked. I would like to see more transparency in the whole process of examiners. When investigating the path to becoming an examiner there was little guidance on the BMFA website, either of how the examiner system is structured, or how one progresses through it. I have also received conflicting information from different sources. If the whole process is clearly laid out on the BMFA website it should stop accusations of secret cabals and rolled up trousers. Maybe the information is there but I haven’t managed to find it. Edited By Chris Marshall on 10/12/2014 14:57:35 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Page 57 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dickw Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Posted by Chris Marshall on 10/12/2014 14:38:17: ............... When investigating the path to becoming an examiner there was little guidance on the BMFA website, either of how the examiner system is structured, or how one progresses through it. I have also received conflicting information from different sources. If the whole process is clearly laid out on the BMFA website it should stop accusations of secret cabals and rolled up trousers. Maybe the information is there but I haven’t managed to find it. Edited By Chris Marshall on 10/12/2014 14:57:35 It is all in the BMFA handbook of which every member should have a copy, and is also available on the BMFA website for those who have lost theirs or need online access:- **LINK** If that direct link doesn't work the handbook and latest updates can be found on this page of the website:- **LINK** Start on page 58. If you don't think it is clear enough what is required then let the BMFA know how you would like to see it. I am sure they would be only too pleased to get some feedback. Dick OK, Martin beat me to it! Edited By Dickw on 10/12/2014 15:27:40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 hello Chris......good luck on your attempting to become club examiner......the bmfa book which is what all members work off states that anyone who is up for the post of area chief examiner must have long term knowledge and experience about the discipline's that he is going to look after ..no more or less....... and again going back to the original posting that Andy set off(where are you Andy)......really we need to hear both sides of the story-but if it was done behind closed door's - I doubt we will...so I suppose we should declare if we are for or against his idea of the ACE.....been able to fly the schedule? .. ken Anderson...ne...1 ...ACE dept. Edited By ken anderson. on 10/12/2014 15:39:14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extra slim Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 BEB, apologies, fair do's, if aimed at me. Martin H...fair point and nicely put. Mr Gorham....You appear disillusioned by lack of modeller involvement, yet by calling me and by inference all B certs who are not examiners selfish for not putting up for examiners!....well you have just answered the reason for your own disillusionment. 30yrs + of enjoyment and teaching in the hobby I love, an opinion expressed based on an all too familiar personal experience of the higher echelons of the hobby, and I'm called selfish......Martin....how can anyone given this type of view be tempted into trying to be more positive?..... But back to the crux of the thread....two sides to every story of course...these guys who have been binned off without a reason, leaving people who cant fly to fill the gaps....Not a clear cut case by all accounts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 hello extra slim-a man after my own heart-I've been flying since the latest model kit's were the Kiel Kraft spits etc ...and were the latest affordable models...and even then you had to save your pocket money until you had the dosh......and since taking up radio modelling 25 years ago...... I've thoroughly enjoyed it and the best part...been in the same club BVRMC is passing on all what I have been taught to other's and seen them flourish(a young goodfellow comes to mind) ....so you are not alone by a long chalk...in fact I would say you are probably the norm.........our club which a lot of people who are members of this forum are also members of--has always been known for its friendly and welcoming atmosphere..........and probably will be when I part company to greater places etc....sorry for going off topic mods ...back to the debate- but well done to E/Slim..... ken Anderson......ne...1 E/S dept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 This is just a story of my/our club, (we are in the Northern Area) a few years back we had 120+ members so the club decided to put 2 more of our lads forward for the Examiners test..... Bring some young un's through.... Both had been instructors a fair time, both well liked and respected. Both passed, both have moved on to pastures new. One has now moved on to F3a and he's doing well the other has left school, got a job and a girlfriend, he was only 17. Hopefully like Arnie he'll be back. John P.S before anyone one asks, Yes the tests where conducted to a very high standard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Marshall Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Thanks to those who pointed me to the handbook. I guess I should have looked there in the first place. It's not that I never refresh my memory of the handbook, just that I haven't looked at that part for quite a while. Everything I was looking for seems to be there including a definitive statement of the point on which I have had conflicting statements. I think that I would withdraw the last paragraph of my first post, it is not valid, I was just looking in the wrong place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 anymore news on the matter...developments? .. ken Anderson...ne...1 ...... curious dept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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