A certificate

[Kevin 216]

I have only been flying since Jun last year and have passed my clubs proficiency test which allows me to fly without an instructor at out field. I would like to do my BMFA A certificate but I have been told by a senior club member that my e-flite Apprentice is not a suitable model to take the test. I replaced the original gyro assisted receiver with a standard Spektrum AR400 4-channel receiver 5 months ago, so no assistance from the SAFE mode.

I intend to do the A certificate test at another club can anyone offer advice as to the suitability of my Apprentice.

[J Moyler]

I would go to the BMFA website and download all the information about the A test. Your plane should be suitable the only thing I had to check was the weight of the plane as the BMFA says that the plane has to be weigh more than 1Kg, but from the eflite specs the Apprentice is heavier than 1 Kg.

JM

[Erfolg]

I would be surprised if the club requirements are any less demanding than the requirements of the "A" test. My interpretation is that it is an indication of being able to operate safely and with positive control of your model.

My clubs requirements are much higher than the "A" test, in demonstrating control, in circumstances which are quite demanding. In this case IC models have the edge, in that their duration is much higher and the added weight improves the dead stick landing, in windy conditions, the model will penetrate much easier.

Other than that any model including the Apprentice will do,with the caveats that Mr Moyler noted, over 1 kg and no auto stabilisation etc. Perhaps some are better than others, although the straight "A" test, requires nothing special.

The only use the "A" test has in my opinion is the universal recognition (by most) clubs when visiting, such as Greenacres fly in. I can see the benefit is that no longer should some people be nodded through to solo flight. Although I expect all clubs to ensure all members operate safely, certificates or not. I remain critical of the increased specific requirements, such as, a race track figure of 8 is no longer acceptable. The emphasis I presume, is to highlight control, I would not hope precision in a schedule type way.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Same advice as always, read the rules for yourself rather than listen to someone else Kevin, the guidelines are clearly set for Examiners. If your model fits within them good luck with your test.

John

[Kevin 216]

Many thanks JM and Erfolg - The club of which I am a member distinguishes between IC and Elect, however I have weighed the Apprentice, using a fishing scale and strops with flight battery fitted it indicates 1.39kg.

[John Privett]

Kevin, I would ask your "senior club member" why he believes the model is not suitable. Though really it's the examiner that has the final say - any rejection of a model should however be based on a sound reason and explained to you.

The BMFA site contains all the guidance notes for the tests, I assume you've read them? The model must weigh at least 1kg with batteries. It must have any gyro or autopilot disabled (and proved to be disabled) and it must be capable of taking off from the ground (ie has an undercarriage!) although the examiner may permit a hand-launch if the flying strip conditions make a take off impossible. But the model must be capable of taking off from the ground - it's the strip conditions, not the model, that might mean a hand-launch is permitted. Other than that, the model must be capable of flying all the manoeuvres required by the test, and of course a buddy box is not permitted!

[John Privett]

Posted by Kevin 216 on 18/04/2015 10:49:45:

The club of which I am a member distinguishes between IC and Elect, however I have weighed the Apprentice, using a fishing scale and strops with flight battery fitted it indicates 1.39kg.

Your club might distinguish between electric and i/c (in what way?) but the A test does not. The test requirements state that;

"The test can be performed with virtually any powered fixed wing model, i/c or electric. It is not expected that the test will be taken with an electric powered glider, however, as the Silent Flight Electric ‘A’ Certificate would be more appropriate to that type of model."

Other than not using a powered-glider (you're not) there is no real difference between electric and i/c for the A test.

[Kevin 216]

Hi John,

My club is not BMFA affiliated. I only joined the BMFA this year and have read the test schedule for the A certificate. I have configured the Apprentice to meet the schedule but was confused as to why it was not suitable, I will certainly ask the senior member the next time I am at the flying site. As my club has no BMFA examiners I hope to take the test a another local club.

[Erfolg]

If the issue is the Apprentice is electric, then I can reassure you, that flying a IC trainer is much easier.

I took my "A" test using a IC model a DB Mascot. I had to borrow the model from the club and beg the use of IC flyers equipment to get me started. I just supplied the Fuel.

I will admit that my two "A" tests were full of events, on reflection amusing.

I did learn one important lesson, inconsistent running, is almost certainly the plug when using modern synthetic nitro fuels. That a brand new, but old Taylor or OS (un opened packets) plugs do deteriorate after 30 years, even though I understood the filament is Platinum. Oh, and the other thing, you must tighten the plug up, quite tight, not just nip it up, that is if you do not want it to come out.

Personally I would not expect passing the "A" test to be any obstacle, having passed the "Club Test".

[Kevin 216]

Posted by John Privett on 18/04/2015 10:59:59:

Posted by Kevin 216 on 18/04/2015 10:49:45:

The club of which I am a member distinguishes between IC and Elect, however I have weighed the Apprentice, using a fishing scale and strops with flight battery fitted it indicates 1.39kg.

Your club might distinguish between electric and i/c (in what way?) but the A test does not. The test requirements state that;

"The test can be performed with virtually any powered fixed wing model, i/c or electric. It is not expected that the test will be taken with an electric powered glider, however, as the Silent Flight Electric ‘A’ Certificate would be more appropriate to that type of model."

Other than not using a powered-glider (you're not) there is no real difference between electric and i/c for the A test.

Basically if I take the club test using IC I can fly IC & Elect, but if I take the test using Elect I cannot fly IC, as I did not intend to fly IC I never asked for an explanation, I will certainly ask the question.

[fly boy3]

Hi Kevin, as well as weight, I think the model must have u/c to allow take off and land. If you have passed the clubs require ment to fly alone, the A will be a dodle for you. Cheers ps sorry, John Privett has already mentioned u/c.

[Dave Hopkin]

Hi Kevin

Your club is entitled to apply any rules it chooses to apply, thats down to the individual clubs and its members - but the BMFA (and as far as I know) the vast majority of clus make no differentiation between IC and Elec as far as the A or B test is concerned

But as your club is not BMFA affiliated you wont be able to take the A test there, you will need to take it through an BMFA affiliated club (and it would be quite reasonable for that club to require you to join them too)

The A test is principally to ensure you can fly safely and not create a risk to yourself, other flyers or the great unwashed public - so IC or Elec has no bearing at all

It also puzzles me why your senior member thinks that passing a test of IC makes you safe in handling Elec, while being tested on Elec doesnt make you safe with IC - I personally would be asking why?

Being proficient in grovelling in the grass flickinga prop repetatively and cusing the oily lump that wont start doesnt mean you understand how an Electric plane works does it - though I guess it will increase your cursing ability

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Dave Hopkin]

Posted by Percy Verance on 18/04/2015 12:26:57:

Now that's an interesting point Dave. What about these various model flying schools you sometimes see advertising in the mags? They offer those whom wish to, the opportunity to take their A, B, C and Examiner tests. One wonders if they're registered as affiliated clubs with the BMFA?

Not looking for an argument you understand Dave, just wondering a bit here......

My own club is affiliated by the way, and I'm a registered Examiner with them.

And incidentally, I've met a fair few folk on flying fields who've not taken any sort of test, but their cursing ability was seemingly well up to the mark.......

Edited By Percy Verance on 18/04/2015 12:28:28

Good point Percy....

Guessing here - But I dont recall seeing anywhere in the BMFA that an registered instructor or examiner is not allowed to take payment for services & expenses.....

[David P Williams]

I don't think you have to take the test at a BMFA affiliated club. I've seen people take B tests at the RC Hotel on Corfu, with two examiners who just happened to be on holiday there too.

( Oh and one of the examiners was the BMFA Acheivement Scheme Controller, so I guess it was all legit.)

Edited By David P Williams on 18/04/2015 13:12:03

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Delta Foxtrot]

Kevin,

Good luck and my advice if it has not already been given is to read the BMFA rules over and over and practice the A test a lot so that you will not be nervous and can fly it will in any reasonable winds.

[gangster]

Kevin sounds like you have certain members who are dinosaurs and are not accepting that times and the hobby have changed and still regard electric models as toys. In terms of performance chances are that an electric model will outperform its ic counterpart Like others I can see that the BMFA do not differentiate . I feel it is wholly inappropriate that individual clubs should put their own slant on the national bodies achievement standards. Previous posts on here suggest that the standards required are not consistent , eg suggesting that the B test can only be taken with pattern ships,ie some examiners requiring perfect completion standard manoeuvres rather than safe ones within the capability of the model.

Both electric and ic models both have specific safety issues in their starting and handling and it seems your club regards that if you understand ic you will be fine with electric. More the other way round I would say. In over 40 years of modeling I have never seen an ic engine suddenly start in the pits or when being carried back from the strip dead stick. I have however seen electric models do just that on a number of occasions .

I took my A test (decades ago) with a 60 sized aerobatic model , in some respects I could say that should have been inappropriate because it virtually flew itself and would be far easier than a trainer to fly. I am flying an electric version of the same model that is way lighter and with much more power and so much faster ,in the view of your club it seems that that would be regarded as a toy and not appropriate for the A cert

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Bill_B]

You can't 'insist', and thus discriminate just because a candidate prefers to use a pattern ship. Not kosher I'm afraid as long as the aircraft meets the criteria laid down.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Well, clubs are of course perfectly allowed to make their own rules about their own tests. But what they should not do is pedal nonsense about the BMFA's tests! A couple of points - some new, some supporting statements by others!

1. If your model weighs over 1Kg, has an undercarriage and can take off from the ground, and has all artificial stabilisation aids disabled and/or removed, then there is absolutely no reason what so ever why you can't do your A-cert with it.

2. A BMFA examiner is a BMFA examiner, and they can conduct the exam anywhere they wish. They could, for example, come to your club and examine you there. Although given what I've heard of the state of wisdom of some of the "senior members" I doubt they would want to!

3. As long as you have insurance, most clubs will be only to happy to welcome you along for the day to do your test. I can't speak for all clubs, but mine would certainly not require you to become a member for this - and I think that is true of most clubs.

4. I am completely baffled as to why Erf thinks the test is easier with an IC model than an electric? I have instructed both, flown both, demo'ed the test on both, and generally I can find no difference that is due to the system of powering the model. What I would say is that, generally speaking, the test (like flying in general) is easier with a larger and heavier model. So a 3Kg wooden trainer is easier to do the test on then a 1.4Kg foamie. But - when you compare like with like - say a Boomerang that is IC powered and Boomerang that is electric powered - I fail to see any difference in terms of the test what so ever!

5. As for those who feel that if the test is passed with an IC model that clears you for IC and Electric - but not the other way round. Amazing! What makes flying larger models challenging is "energy management", by which I mean the handling of the interchanges between potential and kinetic energy. That is the reason for the 1Kg limit on the A test - less than that and you don't learn to manage the aircraft's energy to: slow up, speed up, climb, dive etc. But its got nothing what so ever to do with where the thrust is coming from! With regard to your club's view on this I can only say that they are of course entitled to their opinion, even if it is wrong!, and note that in history the dinosaurs did eventually become extinct of course,....

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 18/04/2015 16:45:35

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Bill_B]

Ah, I understand now Percy.

I wonder if anyone has done their 'B' with an EDF model yet?

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Erfolg]

BEB

You cover one aspect as to why I believe that the average IC model is easier to use on the test. That is the ability to penetrate without power, all the KE, from the heavier weight of the beefier build, big lump of metal upfront, makes the dead stick landing a lot easier.

With respect to a dead stick landing, having been principally a glider guider, teaches you a lot about landing. It is partly that every approach to land is a landing. This teaches a lot about lifting the nose to slow down and sink, push the nose down slightly, and you will keep coming relatively, at the cost of duration time. You also learn to "S" turn if much to high, as this also looses height due to all the drag that is induced. On that basis,On this basis I do recommend a bit of experience with a big glider, bigger than 2m preferably bigger than 100".

The advantage that the IC models have on a site such as club No.2 is that, it is a non standard test, with greater content than the "A" test requires. The reason for this, is the site is a tough on to fly from. Just to get into the test circuit at the correct height (on most days) requires about 2-3 minutes. With the additional manoeuvres, including low passes, double loops, takes precious additional minutes. With my electrics, I only have 6-8 minutes (timer set to 6 minutes). My "A" test took 15 minutes for the first part and probably 10 minutes for the second part. IC aircraft have the reassuring duration capability.

The only aspects I do not like about IC relative to electric are a few issues. The model is covered in gunge at the end of the flight. Then I do not like being in front of the model to start it. Then I do not like the old IC engines portioning of the needle valve, just behind the propeller. I certainly do not like taking the glo driver of the plug. I found it a fine dance about the model, until I could release it from the restraint.

As others have pointed out, electric safety is different. You should sensibly arm the model from behind the propeller. The model should only be armed immediately prior to flight, followed by the system check. If you are delayed, you must disarm. Similarly on landing, the model must be disarmed as quickly as procedurally possible.

The safety issues and means of dealing with the two systems is different. Although with electrics there does need to be more thought on model specific issues. These could be where the hatch for the Lipo is situated, and how you safely manipulate the model. Does the model have an arming plug. The variations make writing a single all encompassing procedure that is relevant to all electric set ups difficult. Although the principles are the same.

In many respects this has been my whinge about the fixed wing "A" test, it has been written from the perspective of a IC model, and then attempts to amend the process, with the idea, that both methods of powering are the same in principle.

As for taking the "A" test, I still believe that the "A" test reflects the minimum requirement for understanding the legal aspects, safe operation and control of a model, in most non public circumstances. I would expect a club test to be no less onerous, and potentially exceeding this minimum requirement as is necessary for the location.