Newbie advice

[ian barnes 4]

I am considering a quadcopter for a specific task.

It needs to be able to carry about 12 to a max of 16oz about 300m at a height of about 20-40ft outdoors (sometimes in light breezes).

I do not need a camera.

A release system would be nice but I could rig up a weak link to do this if a release system is expensive.

I have no previous experience so it needs to be user friendly.

It will only be used a few times a year so needs to be not to expensive (if this is possible)

Thanks in advance.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Are you happy to build it yourself? If so a DJI 550 hexacopter will do that. Cost about £350 for the kit - that includes a NAZAN V2 flight controller and a GPS system. Regarding a battery - a 4s of a 5000mAh works well with that set up.

If you wanted a bit more "umph" - the F550 would do it - but it would be close to its limit - then you could move up to something a bit bigger - but ready available MR's bigger than that tend to be quite a lot more expensive at £5-800.

One quick point - you mention "release gear" - are you planning to drop something? If so you need to consider the legal restrcitions the ANO places on dropping anything from an aircraft?

BEB

[KingKade]

A little about you?......

What you dropping?.....

[Simon Chaddock]

Ian

Just for reference the relevant Air Navigation Order states:

166 (1) A person must not cause or permit any article or animal (whether or not attached to a parachute) to be dropped from a small unmanned aircraft so as to endanger persons or property.

[Bob Burton]

That makes it sound OK to drop an article (or animal !) as long as it does not endanger persons or property.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Well not really Simon - that is a shortened version in the specifically UAV section. The full version is art 129 which states:

129 Dropping of articles and animals

(1) Articles and animals (whether or not attached to a parachute) must not be dropped, or permitted to drop, from an aircraft in flight so as to endanger persons or property.

(2) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), articles and animals (whether or not attached to a parachute) must not be dropped, or permitted to drop, to the surface from an aircraft flying over the United Kingdom except under and in accordance with the terms of an aerial application certificate granted under article 131.

(3) Paragraph (2) does not apply to the dropping of articles by, or with the authority of, the commander of the aircraft in any of the following circumstances:

(a) the dropping of articles for the purpose of saving life;

(b) the jettisoning, in case of emergency, of fuel or other articles in the aircraft;

(c) the dropping of ballast in the form of fine sand or water;

(d) the dropping of articles solely for the purpose of navigating the aircraft in accordance with ordinary practice or with the provisions of this Order;

(e) the dropping at an aerodrome of tow ropes, banners, or similar articles towed by aircraft;

(f) with the permission of the CAA, the dropping of articles for the purposes of public health or as a measure against weather conditions, surface icing or oil pollution, or for training for the dropping of articles for any such purposes; or

(g) with the permission of the CAA, the dropping of wind drift indicators for the purpose of enabling parachute descents to be made.

(4) Paragraph (2) does not apply to the lowering of any article or animal from a helicopter to the surface, if:

(a) there is a certificate of airworthiness issued or rendered valid for the helicopter under the law of the country in which it is registered; and

(b) that certificate or the flight manual for the helicopter includes an express provision that it may be used for that purpose.

(5) In this article ‘dropping’ includes projecting and lowering.

As you can see Bob this answers your point - part 2 bans the dropping of anything - whether it endangers someone or not!

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 21/12/2015 22:44:02

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[KingKade]

We've been here before!

1 posting, no intros, to create a stir!!

Yawn....

[mightypeesh]

Just out of interest - how do 'toffee bombers' at shows get around the red tape?

[AVC]

Posted by KingKade on 22/12/2015 13:18:48:

1 posting, no intros, to create a stir!!

With everything that's going on, the "drone psychosis", the threat of terrorist attacks etc, and suddenly someone makes a single post about a quadcopter to drop almost half kilo of "something", somewhere, and to be used just occasionally...

I remember many years ago a couple of guys that joined the club with a big trainer (similar to the T240), and they were just interested on learning to take off. Once they learnt to do so, they never came back. Some month later the police contacted with the club chair asking for these two guys. When it was clear that nobody in the club knew them before they joined, the police told us that they had been caught trying to cross over the Gibraltar strait from Morocco to Spain, with an rc model, and 3/4 kilos of cocaine within. Since then, we changed the rules in the club to ask for at least two referees to join the club.

[ian barnes 4]

Thanks for the advice so far & just to let you know this is not a wind up post.

I want to drop a 4-8oz fishing bait plus a 6oz weight (hence the 16oz max although an extra bit of oomph wouldn"t go amiss just in case I find I need to use heavier weight) approximately 300m offshore from a headland.

There will be no people or animals anywhere near me or the drop zone.

It will only be used occaissionaly as the target fish are only in the area a couple of months a year plus I need the correct tides & light winds to coincide to make it viable .

What sort of force (in lbs) does this sort of quadcopter develop in forward thrust as if it is enough I could attach the bait & weight to the underside with say 3lb breaking strain monofilament & just let this snap by stopping the reel spool that is paying out the fishing line which will be 30lb breaking strain when at about 300m distance.

Otherwise i would need some sort of release system.

This is the only way to present the bait in the area as you cannot cast a small whole Mackerel plus lead weight 300m.

[AVC]

So, do you intend to go fishing with a drone?? That in itself could be a different hobby (aerofishing??)

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

He's gonna need a bigger boat

3lb mono takes some force to break as you know and 300m of mono will be an awful lot of drag.

John

[ian barnes 4]

I will not be fishing with the drone just using it to deliver the bait to the target area.

The drone will not be towing 300m of mono out it will be towing 300m of braid (.26 thou of an ich) which is much lighter & thinner than mono which for the same breaking strain would be about twice the diameter so more drag & heavier.

I could use 2lb breaking strain mono or tie the securing knot in the 3lb mono weaker so that it would fail at less than 3lbs but either way the weak link would need to be greater than the weight of bait & fishing weight being carried.

So I would guess at least 1.5lbs probably 2lbs to build a safety margin in.

Edited By ian barnes 4 on 22/12/2015 14:55:46

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Read BEB's part 2 again Ian

John

[ian barnes 4]

So I can"t "drop" a dead Mackerel into the sea from a quadcopter but I can legally "drop" a dead Mackerel into the sea by casting it ?

What is the difference ?

I can only cast a deadbait about 100m max otherwise I wouldn"t need to use a quadcopter.

[John F]

Most people use fishing gear to drop bait, Ian.

To be fair the idea, in principle, might be good but the weight of the line as it extends would give an ever increasing amount of drag. Couple that with the problem of how to detach and land safely you're probably going to lose more multi rotor machines than fish you catch!

[Don Fry]

Have you considered a bit more low tech, a kite or a boat, or model boat,  even a firework rocket or mortar. A drone is a complex solution with considerable maintenance, and at that size, training requirements. One mistake over the sea and no drone. Dropping bait only needs a servo, and release hook.

Edited By Donald Fry on 22/12/2015 15:28:03

[Simon Chaddock]

ian

As BEB has pointed out what you propose is technically not allowed by Article 129 of Air navigation Order 2009.

ANOs are part of the UK legal system.

With the current public interest in the whole aspect of drones maybe now is not the time to undertake such an activity.

[ian barnes 4]

I would be using fishing gear just not casting to the spot which would be the only difference.

As to the weight of line 300m of braid only weighs a couple of ounces so as long as there was little wind drag shouldn"t be an issue.

As I would be on an isolated headland with no animals or people anywhere near I would have thought that it was pretty safe & in fact safer than me mis-timing a pendulum cast on a beach, getting a crack off & sending a 6oz lead projectile across the beach at over 100mph at head height.

[ian barnes 4]

Posted by Donald Fry on 22/12/2015 15:27:22:

Have you considered a bit more low tech, a kite or a boat, or model boat, even a firework rocket or mortar. A drone is a complex solution with considerable maintenance, and at that size, training requirements. One mistake over the sea and no drone. Dropping bait only needs a servo, and release hook.

Edited By Donald Fry on 22/12/2015 15:28:03

Kite fishing is practised abroad but for it to work the prevailing wind must be in the right direction & the area I want to fish it is not.

a model boat could not be launched or retrieved where I want to fish.

A firework rocket would be extremely difficult to use due to the heat generated.

I would imagine that a mortar would disintegrate the bait on firing due to the extreme acceleration from static.

I just thought that with the ever increasing availablity of quadcopters at cheaper & cheaper prices that it might offer an option to me that is otherwise unavailable.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

It's probably a no but i'll ask anyway is a rc boat an option ?

John

Ah already answered

Edited By john stones 1 on 22/12/2015 15:43:00

[ian barnes 4]

No problem guys if it is against the law then I will leave it.

Wouldn"t have been like I was dropping a pound of semtex though, just a dead Mackerel.

[Don Fry]

Re a mortar, a bit of bubble wrap, egg box between propellant and load reduces G force by orders of magnitude. Think of ejector seats. About 50 years ago, conducting illegal experiments, the load for trial runs was no more than a pound of sand, taped up in a plastic bag. And it rehit the earth in one piece. I suspect a mackerel would me good. How practicable the system would be I have no idea. We no longer live in innocent days, and even big fireworks need paperwork today. Evil thought, how about a crossbow, truck spring size. Also 50 years ago, the one I built would do what you wanted. Even today you may need no paperwork but be careful. Anything what can throw any weight and line that far, and even the fishing line itself, is dangerous.

[AVC]

Hi Ian

I understand that your hobby is fishing, not flying RC models, drones etc. You have taken the right approach asking to the experts (not me, btw) and you have received some good advices here already.

In case you decided to go ahead with this or a similar idea, I would recommend to have a read to this thread or this one. They can give you an insight of what's going on with rc planes in general and drones in particular.

Good luck on finding a solution!