Amanda Sherborne Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 Sorry to intrude on your forum but I'm hoping for some advice. I live quite rurally and a neighbour often flies his planes over the fields surrounding my property. I'd been in the garden for most of the day (this was yesterday) and he had been flying his plane directly over the house most of the morning. Around 3pm I went inside and left ehchildren in the garden when there was a huge bang and the kids all came running in. His plane had hit the side of the house quite low down and about 2 meters from where the children were playing. The rendering is cracked and has a half a meter scorch mark underneath it. I went into the garden and the plane was smashed to pieces on the ground. It's quite large (to me anyway) wing span that of a grown man. His friend came over to see if I had the plane and I'm not embarrassed to say I told him to get it out of my garden and what the hell did he think he was doing flying it that low over my house all day. I haven't seen the neighbour and he hasn't been round to apologise. What would be the best solution here given I have damaged render? Would you say it's his responsibility to repair or should I claim on my buildings insurance? Is it even legal to be flying over people's houses? I dread to think the outcome if it had hit the children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 Hello Amanda - and welcome. Firstly I am sorry you have had this experience and I'd like to reassure you that the vast majority of modellers pursue their hobby with care and due consideration of the law and their fellow citizens. To try to answer your questions: 1. The legal situation is quite complex. Under the Air Navigation Order 2016 there is legal requirement on all pilots - including those of model aircraft - not to endanger people or property by flying without due care. Prosecutions under this law can only be undertaken by the UK-CAA (Civil Aviation Authority) and/or the police. To be honest though, in the circumstances your describe, I suspect it would be difficult to prove endangerment via either willful or negligent actions to a sufficient level to succeed in a prosecution. The pilot would seek to defend himself by saying it was simply "an accident" he could not have reasonably foreseen and that he took all reasonable precautions. 2. You ask if it is illegal for him to fly over your house? This depends. In a "congested area" such as a town, or even a village, it certainly would be. However you describe the area as "rural". That being the case it is not automatically illegal for him to fly over your property I'm afraid. It may surprise you but we have no rights over the airspace above our property. However, having said that, repeatedly flying over property, especially of done at low level - could be viewed as unreasonable if not necessarily illegal. One qualification on this is that if his aircraft has a camera on board then he must not fly within 50m of any person or property not under his control. You do not state if the aircraft was equipped with a camera. 3. You ask about liability for damage. This is 100% his. If he is a reasonable flyer then, like the vast majority of us on here, he will be insured. You should therefore pursue him him for full redress of all your expenses in the matter and his insurers should deal with the matter. Most of us carry over £25m in insurance cover! If he is stupid enough not to be insured then he will have to pay for the repair himself. I would suggest that your first course of action should be to contact your neighbour. State that you will expect him (or his insurer) to pay for the damage. Further that while you recognise his right to fly his model you would appreciate it and be grateful if he would try not fly over your property. I definitely think this informal friendly approach would be the best starting point. If you can solve this amicably its definitely better foir both of you. If he seriously baulks at this I would report the matter to the local police - they have responsibilities in this respect due to an agreement between them and CAA - the police are unlikely to prosecute (for the reasons I gave above) but a quiet word from them to your neighbour, if he is being difficult, might just cause him to think and be a bit more co-operative. I hope this helps you. BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 Hi Amanda, I would echo BEB's comments and I too would like to say that i'm sorry that you have had this experience. The vast majority of aeromodellers are affiliated to the British Model Flying Association (BMFA) and operate in suitable locations, many as part of a club, in locations free from obstructions or people and structures, roads etc. It may be helpful for you to contact the BMFA, as they may be able to assist you. However, it is ultimately the pilots responsibility to ensure he fly's in a safe manner and initially I would suggest the friendly approach and go from there. If you have any questions or would like more information, please feel free to ask in open forum or as a 'PM'. CB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich too Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 Has he permission to fly from the field? Sending his friend is not a great sign, you are obviously not close neighbours. I would drop him a note explaining the damage to your property (and provide photos, which would have been better with the plane) and could he please arrange for repair. I would also state that you are considering legal advice. If you do not hear from him, get a solicitor to drop him a letter. I hope you get it sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Rich2 makes an interesting point I overlooked. While it is not generally illegal for him to over fly property that is not his, it is illegal for him to take off from it, or land on it, without the owner's permission. I assume he is taking off and landing on his own land? If not, then this is another issue for him. BEB Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 03/04/2017 00:06:45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stainforth Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 As often seems to be the case, the AMA is much clearer on this than the BMFA. AMA's Rule 1 for flying RC models is: "1. All pilots shall avoid flying directly over unprotected people, vessels, vehicles or structures and shall avoid endangerment of life and property of others." AMA Rule 3 (re "flight lines" would also rule out such flying. AMA Rule 6 would also preclude this activity: "...no powered model may be flown outdoors closer than 25 feet to any individual, except for the pilot and the pilot's helper(s) located at the flightline." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stainforth Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 I have just checked the BMFA rules, and rule (k) of Radio Control Flying Safety is very clear: "DO NOT OVERFLY houses, domestic gardens, car parks, traffic, railways, organised games or spectators. You may not be able to control people walking by at a reasonable distance from the take off/landing area but you should take care not to overfly them at low level". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASH. Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Amanda, reading your post makes me really angry. Your chidren could have been seriously hurt by this idiot. And he didn't even have the decency to come and face you. A lot of names for him come to mind !!! I would have kept his bits and pieces and let him come forward. May I suggest you take this all the way and teach this guy a lesson. He's totally out of order! (He's probably scared right now and/or thinks he's got away with it.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Yes John, that maybe a BMFA "rule", but it's not the law, it only has the status of "guidance". You cannot be prosecuted, nor seek legal redress for failing to follow the advice of a private body! BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosco Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 It may be a little late now but personally, I would have taken some pictures before moving anything. Now that the pieces are gone he can quite easily deny everything. Insurance companies can be difficult to deal with especially when there is no proof of anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cymaz Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 If you know the pilots name, you may wish to contact the BMFA yourself to see if he has insurance. All members will have the appropriate cover. I think no onee here would stand for stupid behaviour like that, it breaks Air Naviagation Orders 270 & 271. These are regulated by the CAA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braddock, VC Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Hi, Amanda. If I were you I would completely ignore the well meaning advice offered above and go directly to the police. After all it's what you would do if some crashed into your house in a car, isn't it. It's also their job, not yours, to ascertain whether or not an offence has been committed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ashby - Moderator Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Some irrelevant posts removed. No speculation or silliness please folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wright Stuff Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 In that situation I would definitely attempt to sort it out in a civil manner if possible. He was in the wrong, and it's frankly appalling that he hasn't already offered to pay for the damage, but he will continue to be a neighbour and it's probably better to avoid escalation if possible. It could be that he will refuse to address his responsibilities towards your property, but it could also be that he is embarrassed by the incident. If it's uncomfortable to address it face to face, I'd write a informal, polite but firm letter, stating the damage to the property and the cost to fix it, with an invitation for him to pick up the bill. If the response is negative, or there is no response, then yes, time to involve the police. Whatever you decide Amanda, please do update us here on the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyB Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 I agree with the posters above that this was very poor conduct on the behalf of the model pilot, but if he denies the incident happened and you did not take photos of the plane in your garden it will be very difficult for you to get the police interested in investigating - its basically only your word against his. For this reason I agree you are best to take the non-combative route. Take photos of the damage, get a quote for putting it right and drop these round to him with a note stating your expectation that he pays for the repair; you may even be able to talk to him face to face, but do not put yourself in any personal danger. If you are lucky he will offer to make it right, but if he does not you are left with only two options - report to the police (and be prepared to have to fight really hard to get them interested given the absence of any hard evidence) or forget about it and move on. Edited By MattyB on 03/04/2017 14:37:43 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Symons - BMFA Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 I am not going to get involved with discussions about liability etc as I don't have enough information and this isn't the place either, I would suggest the OP calls the BMFA office and asks to speak to Manny Williamson who will be able to offer correct advice on how to deal with this. Tel No is 0116 244 0028 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Skilbeck Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 The pilot might not think there's any damage to the property, in the original post Amanda told his friend to take the plane and go and not to fly over her house again (or words to that effect). So the model flyer might think that was the end of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piers Bowlan Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 'Cracked render', 'Half a metre scorch mark', 'Wing span that of a grown man'. Just what type of a model was this? Turbine? Large petrol? What was he thinking of, flying over her property? If he 'often flies his planes over the fields surrounding my property' he is likely to do it again if he thinks that is the end of the matter. Perhaps taking photos of the damage and visiting his house to discuss this incident, might be one option if you were comfortable doing this. This might depend on how well you know him and what sort of person he is. As he has demonstrated, by not apologising, that he thinks nothing of crashing into someone's house, reporting the incident to the police might be the best option. They may not 'take action' but they may go and have a 'quiet word with him' if they believe his behaviour was reckless and a nasty accident was narrowly avoided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Any update or thoughts Amanda? Cheers CB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 There was a similar post some months ago about horse riders being overflown IIRC. There was never any feedback or reply following the OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyB Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Gentlemen, not everyone lives on the internet - yes it could be a journalist seeking material, but it could also be a genuine post by someone seeking information who has not had chance to come back and look at the responses since posting. Children take up a lot of time, and we know the OP stated she had more than one of those (guess why I am still up and posting at 2am, there might be a link there...!) Once thing is for certain - whatever the intentions of the OP, badmouthing them and using bad language does not paint model flyers in a good light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ashby - Moderator Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 This thread is now locked, I'm sure Amanda has received plenty of help here from which to make an informed decision/s. Edited By David Ashby - RCME on 04/04/2017 07:44:46 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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