Model selection for "B" test

[Vic Clare 1]

I normally fly a Wot 4 Foam E, both the original and Mk2+

( not at the same time).

I'm working on a plan to regularly train for my "B" test thru the winter months rather than just stooge around when at the strip. I'd appreciate advice from you "B" ticket flyers and your thoughts on the suitability of both the Wot 4 foam E for the "B" test schedule or whether I should add an Acrowot foam E to the fleet to the mix.

Whats the conventional wisdom?

VC

[Denis Watkins]

Main advice would be not to fly the B with an unfamiliar model.

Have your routine, on the ground and in the air, totally familiar and comfortable

So if choosing models, choose one for your style and ability

[Jon Laughton]

Vic - whilst I prefer and fly mainly ic aerobatic models having a B certificate and having flown plenty of Wot 4 foamies I would say that it is a suitable model for the test and fully agree with Denis' comments about being familiar and comfortable with the model you choose to do the test with. Another idea would be to talk to your club examiner on what he recommends and thinks Is suitable as it will most likely be him and another examiner who take you for your test?

Good luck! Jon

[John Emms 1]

I took mine with a Gangster, and I consider that both a very nice model to fly, and an easy model to fly through the B.

After I flew the Gangster for the test, I then flew my Dactyl tailless, and it was suggested that I should have used the Dactyl for the test!

[Mr.B.]

Vic, Either model is capable of flying the schedule. Both are just over the minimum weight. Use a model you are comfortable with. I have found it can be difficult to get the foamy Wot4 to enter the spin but it can be done (having demonstrated the spin for candidates a few times). If you want a new model anyway I would suggest going for some thing a bit larger/heavier which will cope with weather a bit better.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

My personal opinion is that I would like to see a higher minimum size/wing loading requirement for the B to exclude it being taken with lightweight models or "fun-fly" types. This may be a little controversial and I realise that it's an achievement test rather than a "licence" but with its widely accepted status as being a suitable level for flying >7kg models and at public shows, demonstration of a certain amount of energy management is far more realistic with 2.5 kg and upward models.

[Cuban8]

Posted by Martin Harris on 29/09/2017 12:27:38:

My personal opinion is that I would like to see a higher minimum size/wing loading requirement for the B to exclude it being taken with lightweight models or "fun-fly" types. This may be a little controversial and I realise that it's an achievement test rather than a "licence" but with its widely accepted status as being a suitable level for flying >7kg models and at public shows, demonstration of a certain amount of energy management is far more realistic with 2.5 kg and upward models.

I agree with you Martin, and I'm surprised that the committee that is tasked with updating the achievement schemes hasn't addressed the issue. I passed my B well over twenty years ago with a kit built Acrowot powered by a .61 two stroke - UUW was around the seven pound mark. Nothing unusual about that, most candidates turned up for their B with a similar model. Much more of a challenge to one's ability than any of the foamy Wots with wing loadings akin to a glider and of course able to perform the manouvres in much rougher weather.

Anyway, good luck to the chaps taking the B, you have models that are deemed to be suitable by the powers that be - not trying to 'rain on your parade'.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Martin Harris on 29/09/2017 12:27:38:

My personal opinion is that I would like to see a higher minimum size/wing loading requirement for the B to exclude it being taken with lightweight models or "fun-fly" types. This may be a little controversial and I realise that it's an achievement test rather than a "licence" but with its widely accepted status as being a suitable level for flying >7kg models and at public shows, demonstration of a certain amount of energy management is far more realistic with 2.5 kg and upward models.

Subject that comes up often and gets discussed at workshops, and it's a tricky one to get right without excluding people or offending, some don't have the funds nor room to store larger models or maybe don't want them, who am i to tell you what to fly/buy ?

B test is not just about the flight, you're supposed to be a higher standard of safe n in control, you should be capable of judging for yourself if a models suitable for the test, you should be capable of handling it if there's some crosswinds, choice of model is yours, as is the responsibility for turning up with a suitable model, isn't this all part of what makes you a B flyer ?

[Tim Flyer]

I understand that in the A test if you do it with elec power that A is restricted to electric, but if you use IC models it covers both. I'm not sure if the B is similar? I did my A on a Wot 4 IC a number of years ago but I am hoping at some time to do the B . Hopefully either on my Wots Wot XL or one of my other sport planes. The B test needs 2 examiners i understand so it's not going to be easy at my club. That seems quite a harsh requirement.

[John Emms 1]

I have a few .25 size, 3S electric aerobatic models. They are a convenient size, but there are many reasons why they would not be the models that I would use to re-take the B - and Martin's comment is only one of them.

My favourite model of all time is the now discontinued 1.5m Okapi that I fly on 4S. The model is flying at a little over 2kg. Taking a test today, that would probably be the model because I am familiar with it.

If the Acrowot excites you, how about a real, electric, Acrowot? Or how about a real, electric, Wot 4? (one of my 5 most favourite of all time models - though I like it BECAUSE it is reluctant to enter a spin!).

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Timothy Harris 1 on 29/09/2017 13:07:23:

I understand that in the A test if you do it with elec power that A is restricted to electric, but if you use IC models it covers both. I'm not sure if the B is similar? I did my A on a Wot 4 IC a number of years ago but I am hoping at some time to do the B . Hopefully either on my Wots Wot XL or one of my other sport planes. The B test needs 2 examiners i understand so it's not going to be easy at my club. That seems quite a harsh requirement.

Not at all, Timothy - the A &  B power tests covers either power source. If there's any problem getting hold of the required examiners at your club you could always enquire with your area scheme controller and either visit a suitable club by arrangement or request an ACE to come out to your club if you cover their costs.

Edited By Martin Harris on 29/09/2017 13:18:01

[Ron Gray]

So the bait has been dangled and I can't resist going for it. This whole thing about weight is irrelevant to either the A or B (apart from the absolute lower weight of 1Kg of course). The actual wording of the scheme for the B is:

The 'B' Certificate is “designed to recognise the pilot's more advanced ability and a demonstrated level of safety which may be considered by an event organiser as suitable for flying at a public display.”

As an Examiner, therefore, the level of competence required from a candidate should firstly be based on the question; 'has this person demonstrated their flying ability and safety to me in a satisfactory manner’ and, secondly, ‘how do I feel about them appearing in public, possibly at a large display, on the strength of the certificate which I may be about to award them'.

The humble WOT4 foame has the ability to fly in all weather conditions and it excels in strong winds but, as others have pointed out, doesn't like to spin (add tail weight?!!). And as to the comment that a heavier model is harder to fly and can handle rougher weather - pish. It is well known that those with aerobatic tendencies prefer larger models because, generally speaking, they are easier to fly than their smaller counterparts.

So back to the OP, fly with whatever you are comfortable with be that a foame WOT4 or a 60 powered plank of wood. At the end of the day it is you who is flying and showing that, on the day, you are good enough.

 

Edited By Ron Gray on 29/09/2017 13:42:19

[Cuban8]

Have to disagree with you Ron, why bother to have a weight minimum at all, when you could in theory, complete the required schedule with a 50g indoor model on a flat calm day?

[Ron Gray]

Simples really, you wouldn't see your 50g indoor jobbie at 150 feet and therefore wouldn't be suitable for the test😉

[Don Fry]

I may be thick, and I am certainly well out of date. But I seem to recall that the bloke at the model show, tasked with safety, will:

1 Require a B piece of paper.

2 If he does not know the pilot, require bits of paper, i.e. A log book, to satisfy that the pilot is safe and familiar with a model of the type and weight proposed. I.E. no experiments in public.

If I am wrong, I don't want to be there when the bloke who does the B with a horse power aircraft, suddenly decides that he does a big turbine powered job at a show.

B piece of paper is a B piece of paper. It's value is you have demonstrated a knowledge of safe crashing. It is not something that makes you a junior God.

To answer the original post, use a machine you are happy with. If it won't spin, correct its trim, or use something else.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Don Fry on 29/09/2017 17:12:33:

...the bloke at the model show, tasked with safety, will:

1 Require a B piece of paper.

2 If he does not know the pilot, require bits of paper, i.e. A log book, to satisfy that the pilot is safe and familiar with a model of the type and weight proposed. I.E. no experiments in public.

My interpretation is that:

the bloke at the model show, tasked with safety, may:

1 Require a B piece of paper.

2 If he does not know the pilot, may require bits of paper, i.e. A log book, to satisfy that the pilot is safe and familiar with a model of the type and weight proposed. I.E. no experiments in public.

The point being that it is his responsibility to ensure that any pilot is competent - this may start from requiring a B (probably more an exercise in showing evidence of some measure of diligence) and may well involve a demonstration of competence if the pilot is unknown to him.

Regarding Ron Gray's observation on larger modes being easier to fly, this is true in terms of smoothness, visibility and positioning but with the larger size comes an exponential increase in mass which introduces a whole new dimension to handling and recovery from unusual situations as well as reducing margins for error.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Ah buts eh.

Ah but, n what if a show/fly in organiser only requires you to have an A or like our club n others requires nothing ?

We've had many guests over the years, i haven't a clue who had what bit of paper.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by john stones 1 on 29/09/2017 17:42:43:

Ah but, n what if a show/fly in organiser only requires you to have an A or like our club n others requires nothing ?

Then he's the one who may have to answer questions in the event of something unfortunate happening. As I think I alluded to, there is no requirement for any particular qualification but there is a duty of care on the organiser to ensure that his pilots are competent. The B can simply be used by him as a tangible demonstration that he has set a baseline standard.

P.S. Can of worms time...

The new handook references out all aspects of display organisation to the Display Organiser's Handbook 2016...which states that CAP 658 effectively requires (terminology states "should" but not "must" all display pilots to hold a B...but there's no reference that I can see in CAP 658 to this requirement!

Edited By Martin Harris on 29/09/2017 18:41:37

[Ron Gray]

@Martin - I suggest that a sub 7Kg machine flying at speeds approaching 200mph requires a lot more 'skill' (term used lightly) than a >7Kg floater flying at, say, 10mph! Which is exactly my point about the weight being largely irrelevant.

But continuing down this line takes us further away from the original post!

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Organiser is responsible for his show, no argument from me, piece of paper from a voluntary scheme won't take away responsibility either.

What is a public event ? National centre only requires pilots to hold an A to turn up n fly, baselines been moved maybe.

F3A only require an A for clubman class (correct if i'm wrong) if i'm right where's the baseline ?

Dodgy ground when a B cert is used in these discussion.

Yep i'm way off topic..sorry mods.

Edited By john stones 1 on 29/09/2017 18:31:31

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Ron Gray on 29/09/2017 18:20:46:

@Martin - I suggest that a sub 7Kg machine flying at speeds approaching 200mph requires a lot more 'skill' (term used lightly) than a >7Kg floater flying at, say, 10mph! Which is exactly my point about the weight being largely irrelevant.

But continuing down this line takes us further away from the original post!

Quoting extremes is rather wandering from the point too. Very few foam Wot 4s etc. fly at these speeds. Perhaps a kinetic energy limit might be more representative at the extremes but not very practical - no doubt such factors were taken into account when setting the 7 kg (and earlier 5 kg) cut-off point to encompass the majority of models likely to be flown at a typical event or club setting - both coming under the overriding control of the organisers or club?

Edited By Martin Harris on 29/09/2017 18:50:33

[Cuban8]

Posted by Ron Gray on 29/09/2017 16:34:41:

Simples really, you wouldn't see your 50g indoor jobbie at 150 feet and therefore wouldn't be suitable for the test😉

They don't call me 'cat's eyes Cuban' for nothing .

Some have said that model weight is not an issue for any of the tests. OK a 50g model would probably be out of the question, but there are plenty of other low powered lightweight models available that are no where near 1Kg but are physically similar in size to the Wots and could perform the schedule equally well on a suitable day. Taking and passing the test with one of these would really be outside the spirit of the B's achievement level IMHO and are not permitted under the present rules, anyway.

I think what's clouding the issue is that whilst the B (and the achievement scheme as a whole) is pushed as essentially a personal target for improvement (which it is) and not a licence to fly a certain type of model, A and B tests are used by many clubs exactly like a flying permit (usually a solo rating).  Flying in front of the public at a show will almost certainly require one to be B rated.

Because of the unofficial 'licencing' side to the qualifications that has developed over the years, I think that the current range of models that one can pass the tests with is a little too accommodating and could do with a rethink to keep the B test (if nothing else) fit for purpose.

 

 

 

Edited By Cuban8 on 30/09/2017 10:32:31

[Don Fry]

But the point is, it is not a licence. If you want a licensing scheme, do one. I would point out, when you pass a moped test, that does not get you into the cab of a 44 ton truck.

Edited By Don Fry on 30/09/2017 10:36:44

[Ron Gray]

Maybe these discussions should come under a new topic - Achievement Schemes, what do they achieve?

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]