Legislation Proposal at last

[John Emms 1]

A massive thank you to those in the know who have added relevant links, and patiently added to knowledge.

I have sympathy with Matty's comments, and the fact we fly away from people does not help our visibility. BUT I feel we have a strong argument for pretty much business as usual, partly because of the wording about us by EASA, and partly because core skills and knowledge for the UAV industry comes from skills and knowledge gained ENTIRELY through model flying! Airframes for commercial UAVs are designed and built by model flyers. Name a UK UAV manufacturer and, at some point, they have probably phoned me for advice about electric power for UAVs, including BaE Systems.

I remember the massive impact that Martin's work had in getting our sport recognised, and Martin's definition was clearly important in this. In addition to that, the modern definition of sport is about the link between the cognitive and physical, and ALL aspects of our sport have that. There is conclusive medical evidence that developing an excess of cognitive ability (more than would be required simply to live a normal life), physical exercise, and social interaction, all help to put off the onset of dementia. Sandra and I have met a massive number of model flyers over the years, Sandra is now a specialist in dementia care, and we do not know of one single model flyer who has developed the onset of dementia.

The RAF, since the time of National Service, has encouraged model flying as a sport to build "air mindedness", and in later years Flight Safety, especially in those trades not directly associated with aircraft operations. Cross country slope soaring involved every bit of physical activity that military fitness tests involved, but with the added demands of being aware of the height, speed, and position of the model in relation to the next available lift.

Other benefits? Many of our great aircraft designers, notably Harry Hawker, have been model flyers, and I know young high flying engineers at Airbus who were enthused by aviation through being introduced to model flying, and continue to enthusiastic model flyers. In my own experience, I came very close to being one of the 50 and 60 plus long term unemployed, but I maintained a wide range of engineering skills through model flying, and I am now one of the people that the Government say are much needed, passing on skills and knowledge in Engineering education.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Can't fault a positive attitude John. What are the benefits of being recognised as a sport ?

[Erfolg]

It cannot be long before the next BMFA mag, with luck a few pages will be filled with respect to this issue. It may warrant more than a few pages. Although that would be a start.

There are  aspects of what has been discussed that affect FF modellers and how they undertake their sporting activities. We have mentioned Thermal Gliding, and its attendant height issues. Then there are our intrepid Slope Soarers, where sites are often not defined as club sites. Without delving into the implications of one fliers, childrens apparent flying toys.

The mag is an opportunity for Dave Phillips to tell us something that he wishes to air.

I would bet no one would dare say it is not worth reading, as there is never in it of interest or is relevant to themselves.

Edited By Erfolg on 05/12/2017 15:37:54

[Nigel R]

Fine post John.

[John Emms 1]

Posted by john stones 1 on 05/12/2017 13:17:17:

What are the benefits of being recognised as a sport ?

I hoped that Martin may come back and answer that one. I understand that the immediate benefit was that funding became available for those participating in International competition, but I understand that stopped a number of years ago (a friend was asked to compete in a world chaps recently, and the total costs of doing so came to over £6000). I know that the sport status has led to local authorities providing suitable facilities if existing facilities are lost. I guess that ultimately being a recognised sport, is a recognition of the value of the sport to society in general.

Further thoughts on the commercial value of Model Flying:

Do a search on military drone, and you will find far more manufacturers of model sized fixed wing drones than of MR drones, and thinking of the civil applications, any task that requires a loitering capability, or covering long distances is far more effectively done by fixed wing than by MR. So, any mapping or surveillance is far more effectively done with fixed wing. I supplied a number of airframes and power systems to provide a stable platform for filming wildlife over extended periods. The UAV climbing under electric power with the prop blades rotating as slowly as possible, and then filming during the glide.

As an electric flight specialist dealer, a typical commercial call would be about how to power a given size and weight of fixed wing drone, how to improve duration, and providing components for both prototype and production drones. It is also no secret that an engine manufacturer that I used to be a dealer for is doing considerable development and production of engines specifically for the fixed wing drone market. A call I remember well was late on a Friday when a drone manufacturer needed propeller blades for trials that were booked to start on the Monday morning - I was the only person with the required blades, and the manufacturer started the trials with the propeller blades they needed. The market for parts for prototype and limited production run specialist drones is so limited that it would not be possible to exist even as a hobby dealer for these parts. The UK drone manufacturers RELY on UK model flyers to keep model dealers in existence, so that the drone manufacturers have a ready supply of parts at low cost, but the drone manufacturers are of little to no benefit to the model flying dealers. Without the supply and support base for small drone development and manufacture, you don't build up large scale drone development and manufacture.

Edited By Pete B - Moderator on 07/12/2017 08:33:47

[Former Member]

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[cymaz]

For commercial use the drone pilot must have a NQE. So, how do the politicians square the circle about delivery drones working autonomously? Oh yes, I remember now...bribes and kick-backs...

[ken anderson.]

there wont be many drone deliveries with the winds we have today in ne..1 land and if this/last year windy weather is any thing to go by--the operators will all be insolvent asap.......

ken Anderson...ne...1....insolvent dept.

[Martin Dilly 1]

Benefits of our Sports Council recognition? Well, it’s been around 40 years or so since I was heavily involved in the negotiations and the organisation itself seems to have changed. For 3 or 4 years we did get a small amount of funding towards the out of pocket expenses of those selected to represent Britain at World Championships; however, after that it was decided that actual funding would in future go only to 22 so-called prime Olympic sports, with the result that the other 133 recognised sports, including model flying, got nothing.

Presumably as a sop to the devolutionists, there now exist Sport Wales, Sport Scotland, Sport Northern Ireland, Sport England and UK Sport. Are you keeping up…? Some of these organisations do fund some aspects of the other recognised sports. I’m a bit rusty on the details but the various Sports Councils’ list of some of the benefits of recognition of national governing bodies like the BMFA may help:

a) Association with their respective Sports Councils, for instance through the use of the Sports Council logos on the NGB website (please note that the UK Sport logo may only be used for Olympic and Paralympic NGBs); and

b) A need to regularly review governance and ensure minimum standards are kept in line with the recognition review process in place.

The benefits of recognition for sports participants and other stakeholders include:

a) Detail on the organisations with which the Sports Councils choose to have dialogue for a particular sport;

b) Clarity on the NGB structure and how the body operates and governs its sport, with some consistency in terms of the recognition application and recognition review requirements (for instance geographical jurisdiction, development plan, competition structures etc.);

c) Improved governance, sharing of good practice and an emphasis on sporting development which should also contribute to the quality of the sporting experience for participants; and

d) Access to potential funding. For instance many funding programmes list recognition as the first eligibility criterion for applicants.

Clearer now? One benefit of being on the list of recognised sports, quite apart from funding, is that local authorities must at least consider providing facilities for model flying where possible, rather than just dismissing it out of hand as just another pastime. Another is that, as a recognised air sport, BMFA members who are under 24 are eligible to apply for funding from the Royal Aero Club bursary scheme. More info here: http://www.royalaeroclubtrust.org/bursaries.

[Erfolg]

I am not at all clear if there any or even a singular tangible advantage in being considered a sport.

Earlier in this thread i understood that the BMFA argued that a case can be made that in being defined as a sport ther is real benefit in being defined as a sport in that LA were required to raise definable reasons not to grant planning permission for suitable flying sites. At one time it was argued that LA were obliged to find suitable locations within their jurisdiction for clubs to undertake the sport of model flying.

Now it seems that the benefits are anything but clear cut.

Although anything that at least applies moral pressure or a need to demonstrate that efforts have been made by the LA is better than having no requirement, with respect to suitable facilities.

My main concern is the much trumpeted UK legislation that both Newspapers and the BBC have referenced being at least passed in 2018 if not instantly implemented. Both types of media outlets have indicated far reaching restrictions. The descriptions have a strong broad brush aspect, although when read carefully, it becomes less clear what will be implemented and who must comply.

I do not blame the BMFA for what is happening or is purported to happen. All I desire is that we, who will potentially be affected are kept informed by The BMFA. If the BMFA knows nothing, just tell us. It could be that they also have been kept out of the loop. If they are informed, I would very much doubt that they are silenced by the "Official Secrets Act", as these issues are very unlikely to jepardise national security.

My own view is as a modeller I would much rather fail in safeguarding our sport or hobby after trying to defend it, than regret sitting on my hands, as it could be seen as rocking the boat.

[Cuban8]

Quote...........

"There is concern, especially amongst hobbyists, that by falling under the prototype regulation (which will become an actual regulation at some point and thus directly applicable in the UK, at least until Brexit) first person view (FPV) model aircraft and the like would face restrictions on whether and how they could fly that would in effect make it impossible for them to pursue their hobby as they do now.

How many more times?.............model aircraft are not drones.....................repeat please..................model aircraft are not drones................repeat please.....................repeat please............................

[Former Member]

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[Graham R]

How about either:-

1) Any UAV with more than two horizontal mounted props.

or

2) Any UAV with more than two vertically mounted power units

[cymaz]

Posted by Graham R on 10/12/2017 11:10:48:

How about either:-

1) Any UAV with more than two horizontal mounted props.

or

2) Any UAV with more than two vertically mounted power units

I don’t think that would satisfy the powers that be, it too vague. Any model aircraft eg Lancaster bomber would be classed the same as as a quadcopter?

Better to say something like.... “any single or multiple span rigid/ fixed wing aircraft and/or with any propulsion system either by props or fans fixed into the wings or front/rear of the fuselage”....it’s a bit of a dogs dinner but it tries to cover everything. Gyrocopters have motors on the fuselage so that covers them.

Someone else have a go, my head hurts

Edited By cymaz on 10/12/2017 11:26:26

Edited By cymaz on 10/12/2017 11:26:50

[Ron Gray]

Drone - any multi rotor UAV whose primary propulsion is vertical. I know this would encompass helicopters but got to draw the line somewhere!

Edited By Ron Gray on 10/12/2017 11:33:48

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Graham R]

or

Any electric powered UAV with more than 2 vertically mounted power units (ie output shaft in the vertical)

[Ron Gray]

@Steve - Drone

Edited By Ron Gray on 10/12/2017 11:35:41

[cymaz]

Tail boom- fuselage.Prop at rear of fuselage, maybe?

What wouldn’t you describe it as ? Looks like a helicopter shape though others might disagree

[cymaz]

Posted by Steve J on 10/12/2017 11:32:33:

How would you classify the HEF 32?

Steve

Helicopter

[Former Member]

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[cymaz]

What do you class them as, these are definitely drones! Fixed wing or multi rotor?

Edited By cymaz on 10/12/2017 11:58:05

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Ron Gray]

Isn’t the distinction made by the use of the word airplane rather than aircraft for fixed wing jobbies. In the case of a multi rotor, it is not an airplane but it is an aircraft.

The problem is that the general public picked up on the word drone to describe a multirotor and that’s what has stuck. We too in our generalisation coin the word drone for quads. So most people know what you mean when you say drone, it’s the powers that be who have screwed it up!

[Ron Gray]

dupe posting

Edited By Ron Gray on 10/12/2017 13:31:17