Re: Death of IC

[Geoff S]

Posted by Percy Verance on 05/02/2018 15:12:55:

Hi Geoff

If Alex Whittaker is to be believed, then the secondhand engine market - particularly two strokes - has hit something of a low. I reduced my collection about 18 months ago by shifting a shed-load of them - including 14 unrun examples - through my LMS. Some of them reached my expected asking price, others fell short by some way.

I don't have a local model shop any longer. All the ones I used to use have closed - the last was the Hobby Stores shop in Beeston, Nottingham and that wasn't all that convenient but both my brother and sister lived fairly near so I could kill 3 birds with one stone on a visit.

Really, I've had my fun out of them and they're just taking up space. I think the best are a couple of Irvine Q40s which were always the best of the pre-metric engines IMO. Rather like 4 strokes with quiet running and enough torque to turn larger props than normal 40s. Really I'd just like them to be used.

I got a lot of advice from one shop (Wayland's in Heanor) when I first started as a mature modeller in my mid 50s. There's just the internet now which I suspect is useful but not like face to face, especially Wayland who was running the shop more as a pastime. I don't think he needed the money so was happy to break even.

Geoff

[cymaz]

It’s always puzzled me why you should fit a sound board to an electric model to make the sound of IC.

We had a modeller in our club who put a Merlin Engine sound board in a Spitfire. Very nice on the ground..he never got it loud enough to hear it in the air.

Can someone who has done recently enlighten me. I would be interested to see/ hear a video

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Trevor Crook]

I would agree that fitting a loud sound system if you are flying at a noise sensitive site is illogical, although if you have a choice of sites it can always be switched off. But there are several other good reasons other than noise for powering a scale model electrically.

It's much easier to make a neat engine installation - much less cooling airflow required, and no protusions like cylinder heads and silencers.

The model can be flown on a scale or near scale prop.

The reduced chance of unexpected power loss. I know plenty of people will argue with this, but my observation is still that there are many more cries of "dead stick" with i.c. This reliability is particularly welcome with multi-engine types.

[The Wright Stuff]

I think the above 9 pages pretty much demonstrates that we can't answer the original implied question: "Will I.C. eventually die, and if so, when?" through personal experience and preferences alone. More data is needed.

One method might be to correlate age with probability of flying only I.C. or only electric, and then propagate forwards in time so see if a point is reached when the demand won't sustain the industry. Short of doing a 2 dimensional poll on here, I don't see how we can easily get those numbers.

So back to sound boards and sausages....

[Andy Blackburn]

Posted by MattyB on 05/02/2018 15:51:55:

... I know a few enthusiastic glow heads, but I don't know anyone who has bought a new 2S glow in the last 5 years as there is such a healthy supply of cheap unused/nearly new engines available on the secondhand market.

Um. Yes, you do...

I bought a couple of ASP 25s from Just Engines a couple of years ago for a scale twin (production of which has now been pushed to much later this year); I thought about making it electric but on balance, I find IC scale a bit more exciting. No idea why, probably something to with the noise, or the risk of an engine failure...

[Jon H]

the biggest reason by far for dead sticks is engines not set up correctly in the first place as very few people have actually been taught how to set up an engine properly.

There is also the feeling that any engine tuned for maximum performance is 'lean' and will melt as soon as you leave the ground. This is not the case as a lean engine is past the point of maximum performance.

This and other items of modelling folk lore usually lead to excessively rich fuel mixtures which dose a number of things.

Reduces reliability, especially the dreaded cut on throttle up just as you go to take off.
Increases fuel consumption and thus operating costs
Splatters unburnt fuel all over the model, which evaporates to leave an oil slick
increases the chances of corrosion within the engine.

The 4 things above are probably the main complaints people have about glow engines and 90% of it comes down to poor set up along with the choice of old/out of date fuel mixtures like duraglo.

Much of the modelling press and info dished out by the BMFA do not help as the information they publish is often out of date. i have contacted a model shop in the past on behalf of laser when they recommended an unsuitable fuel to one of our customers. I have no doubt that the shop in question (Steve Webb) believed it was the right fuel for the job and they were very apologetic. I forget who i spoke to but he said he would inform his staff to make sure their customers get the right gear for the job. It was the perfect response and the problem was solved.

Multi engine models are another example where people are horrified by the chance of an engine out. Again though, if the engines are set correctly they wont stop i the first place, and even if they do a twin will fly on one engine if handled correctly. The often promoted cut and glide being probably the worst thing you can do.

In any case, this sort of misinformation is what i referenced in a previous post and im sure it negatively impacts on the image of i/c as a whole and forces people electric through fear, or gives an exaggerated impression of the work involved in maintaining an i/c engine.

The issue, as i have found out, is changing these perceptions. Even with 'Laser engines' in my name here on the forum anything i say about this stuff immediately causes one debate or another with anecdotes from the 1970's saying 'synthetic oil killed my mates engine and its 20% castor until the end of time' or arguing the toss when i recommend a method of running in for ASP/SC engines that works better than the old they copied from a 1980's set of OS instructions.

If the hobby as a whole will not listen to new ideas/recommendations when it comes to operating i/c engines then they are dead, and they will have been killed off by a stubborn determination to ignore ways to improve them and get the most from them. Equally manufacturers need to produce the correct engines for the current market and update their recommendations to dispel the myths and update everyone on what is now acceptable. To me this means they need to use lower oil content, certainly no more than 10% in a glow with testing on lower. They need decent exhausts and we need to move away from short bore/stroke ratios to reduce rpm and allow the use of large, efficient props which will also look nice. I also think that the days of the two stroke for fixed wing are numbered as 4 strokes are now far more affordable than they used to be 30 years ago and are putting out higher power than ever. Modern 4 strokes are a far cry from the old OS61 open rocker or the first OS 40 stroke that were great in their day, but now would barely pull the skin off a rice pudding.

Sorry if this seemed like a rant. Its just that from my perspective its extremely frustrating to see the same bad advice and incorrect information continually quoted. I know some will think im just trying to help my business and that my argument is self serving but i dont care about that. My goal is to give accurate information on the current state of i/c engines and allow people to make an informed choice about their powerplant and not be frightened off by out of date information.

[Andy Blackburn]

Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 06/02/2018 09:06:08:

...

Sorry if this seemed like a rant....

Well, it was a bit...

But it probably needed saying.

A.

[Andy Blackburn]

Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 06/02/2018 09:06:08:

...

Sorry if this seemed like a rant....

Well, it was a bit...

But it probably needed saying.

A.

[Nigel R]

Jon - well said.

 

Percy

You've mentioned Mecoa a few times now.

"although looking at the mecoa.com site it appears the i.c. engine scene is thriving in the US."

A few searches for peoples experience of Mecoa (say, on RCU or RCG) would show that Mecoa's MO appears to have been - buy up a brand, both trademark and stock, sell the stock, move on.

"The words: Flying Dragon, Model Engine Enthusiast, Engineland Museum, HP, Twister, Greenhead,
Gold Cup, Silver Star, VT, Veco, Torpedo, Stallion, Tornado, Supersonic, I4C, Fuji, IBS, Merco, Mammoth, K.61, RJ Elf, Atwood, Wen-Mac, Anderson Spitfire, Aurora, C.I.E., Conquest, Sky Devil, Kalt, Kustom, DEW, Blue Streak, Holland Hornet, Forster, Remco, Zeus, HGK, Johnson, Cunningham, MERCO, HB, Snipe, Huron, Atwood, Shriek, Fury twin, Sky Fury, Sea Fury, Ultrapoxy, Superpoyx, CB-TATONE, CB, and TATONE "

Do any of those sound current and/or available?

 

Edited By Nigel R on 06/02/2018 10:08:57

[Erfolg]

Trying to come to any conclusion with respect to a snap shot of the USA is almost certainly going to be misleading.

An example would be to conclude that large scale models are the norm in the USA based on RC Top Gun.

If we take the RCM&E we may conclude that big models are universally the dominant RC Model, complete with +£500 engines based on a few reviews.

Personally I see IC going the same way as horse in the community, hardly ever used for commercial activities, mainly seen at Blackpool pulling tourist, on the race course and ridden for fun.

In the case of IC, mainly at the big shows, in big models. As everyday club power plants, they will continue as long as there are limited noise restrictions and the current ownership has them already in their possession. There after the massed produced suppliers will have turned to making widgets. This will leave the relatively small quality producer, who is not trying to make a fortune, whose passion is in what they are doing.

For the rest, mainly electric. On the other hand a lot of my predictions are either completely wrong or in detail. At present I am convinced that a Manchester Club will win the Premier League.

[Martin Dance 1]

For the rest, mainly electric. On the other hand a lot of my predictions are either completely wrong or in detail. At present I am convinced that a Manchester Club will win the Premier League.

Erfolg, You sound like my sort of gambler, each way bet on the boat race!!!

[Nightflyer]

Well said Jon - especially the first five paragraphs in your last post. I have lost count of the number of people who either fail to understand how to set an engine up - even after having been told, shown or had engine tuned properly. Usually in the case of the latter the person tends to be a habitual 'twiddler'. Sadly it is this aspect that either puts people of model flying or focuses their interest on electric power. My club has even had people (inc. Neil Tidey) give talks on engine tuning.

While engines do evolve their design seems to be stable and also engines do last a long time when well treated. These may be some of the many factors that affect sales. Though without sales manufacturing will reduce.

Electrics do have their own issues - namely ongoing technology evolution, which has seen some step changes over the years to motors, controllers, and cells. What seems to also leap out is that the market is more of a disposable market. A problem with a motor or ESC usually means that it is consigned to the bin and then possibly the replacement of one might (but not always) lead to having to replace the other.