Re: Death of IC

[eflightray]

People are free to build with whatever material they like, (the balsa vs foam argument), likewise free to use whatever power system they like.

But, when people say they like the sound of an IC engine in a scale model, have they not heard of sound systems in electric models ? There are plenty of videos of electric warbirds on youtube with sound modules if people want to hear a more 'realistic sound'.

For those that preferred 2-stroke sound compared with the sound track of an actual Merlin would seem a strange choice, but then people are free to use and fly whatever they want.

I have a scratch built SBD Dauntless, electric powered, fitted with radial engine sound module, and just to make a few purists wince even more, it's 95% built using Depron foam. It's what I like. I have no problem with others preferring something different, I just hope they at least are not too biased.

Ray.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by eflightray on 01/02/2018 19:36:20:

People are free to build with whatever material they like, (the balsa vs foam argument), likewise free to use whatever power system they like.

But, when people say they like the sound of an IC engine in a scale model, have they not heard of sound systems in electric models ? There are plenty of videos of electric warbirds on youtube with sound modules if people want to hear a more 'realistic sound'.

For those that preferred 2-stroke sound compared with the sound track of an actual Merlin would seem a strange choice, but then people are free to use and fly whatever they want.

I have a scratch built SBD Dauntless, electric powered, fitted with radial engine sound module, and just to make a few purists wince even more, it's 95% built using Depron foam. It's what I like. I have no problem with others preferring something different, I just hope they at least are not too biased.

Ray.

BEB

[Erfolg]

Whenever anybody tells me that the model IC engine sounds realistic, I know what they mean, just like a MZ at full bore, pity that is a million miles away from any of the IC aircraft engines.

The real benefit of IC and it still there it is the energy/fuel density of all of the liquid fuels.

But when we think, will the average person living near by or even passing a model field care if a model is IC or electric, many do, just because of the noise. Yes I know you can, if you really try make an electric model noisy, yet somehow, just it manages to be less intrusive than many IC engines, deemed to be quite.

The real benefits are with her at home.

There is another benefit, when compared to IC engines, people do not need to stand in front to start one, nor as with many of the older engines, put there fingers or arms near the spinning arc of the prop, for a variety of reasons. With electric most if not all set ups will have the modeller to the rear of the model, with no sensible reason to go near the prop. I know, I know, some one will know some numpty who cut their head and twp hands of with an electric. Many years ago when my daughter was in training in Edinburgh, she dealt with someone who stuck it would appear both hands in the prop of a large model. Apparently, the reason was it did not stop after doing whatever it did to one hand and kept on going for the second.It obviously did not obey the IC code, of I will stop when making contact with flesh. Apparently they were a real mess, which has lead to me having to adhere to low power set ups, to keep her happy.

There is a danger with electric, that contrary to opinion, many do stop, often quite easily, when stalled, then the risk is a fire. Like with IC it can be serious, in that the wallet is hurt, or very serious in that property or physical well being is put at risk.

Me I just admire my electric motor collection, brush the dust of the commutator, polish the case with some motors.

[Trevor Crook]

Regarding scale models, which is my preference, as said above the sound of a model engine, especially 2-strokes, bears little relationship to the full size.

It is also very difficult to hide cylinder heads and silencer systems in something like a Spitfire. My one below also flies nicely on a scale propellor.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

In terms of fidelity, in my experience only gas turbine powered models have ever sounded close to realistic - I've yet to hear an electric sound system that has convinced me (start-up and shut down sounds coming close, though).

I'm always a little saddened when debate comes down to EP versus IC though as at the end of the day, both alternatives are means to an end in achieving powered model flight and should be embraced by all of us - use of either being free choice and not subject to disparaging comments from bigots from either persuasion.

I enjoy flying my electric models but I don't think I would have the same enthusiasm for the hobby without my IC engined models. For me, there's a missing element when modelling an IC engined aircraft with an electric motor, although I can still enjoy flying them. I just wouldn't put a great deal of time and effort into building one. Conversely, on a day like today, EP models were my weapon of choice.

Will IC die? For me, no - not while I can still buy or continue to run them. Will newcomers learn almost exclusively with EP? Probably. Will any of them embrace IC? Possibly - especially if they see more established modellers enjoying success and good performance. My suspicion is that 2 stroke glow engines will continue to drop in popularity while there will be a steady demand for 4 stroke glows and petrol engines for many years to come.

Edited By Martin Harris on 01/02/2018 23:27:41

[cymaz]

You’ve only got to look on YouTube and see the hundreds of videos about fuel engine runs and start ups. There is something that appeals to me about hearing a nice purring 4 stroke or a radial. You don’t see many videos about the sound of an electric motor running on 4s...

Every model flier should have a choice of what engine to stick in the airframe. I prefer using IC despite some headaches now and again. With everything it’s care and preparation, clean fuel, looking after the engine post flight. To me it’s all part of the fun of the hobby. I may have an electric powered model one day. Possibly when I’m old and doddering around the appeal of just plugging it in and flying my appeal...but not just yet.

[Cuban8]

If you've had the February BMFA Mag, the back cover has an ad from LogicRC with a range of .40 size kits from Great Planes. The GP website has quite an extensive range of .40 kits and ARTFs so there's hope yet. Having said that, GP is a Hobbico company, so where that leaves them, given that firm's recent problems is anyone's guess.

BTW, BMFA mag is not too bad this time

 

Edited By Cuban8 on 02/02/2018 08:11:09

[Jon H]

Posted by Trevor Crook on 01/02/2018 22:39:15:

Regarding scale models, which is my preference, as said above the sound of a model engine, especially 2-strokes, bears little relationship to the full size.

It is also very difficult to hide cylinder heads and silencer systems in something like a Spitfire. My one below also flies nicely on a scale propellor.

I had one of these. Looked lovely, really well designed, flew ok, sold it because it was boring. The fragility of foam was also annoying and although this model wasnt too bad i often find foamy models all floppy and unpleasant to fly.

In any case, It just didnt give me any buzz or satisfaction when flying and it just sat unloved in the corner. It was also far more hassle to get in the air than my i/c stuff due to the time taken to charge enough batteries for a decent session.

Even ignoring the convenience factor i just get so much more enjoyment from my large V twin powered warbirds.

It could of course be considered that i am doing things somewhat against the grain as a 50-60cc glow engine is far from the norm, but you couldnt pay me to swap them for a 2 stroke petrol.

Which brings us nicely back to square one. We fly what we choose to. My only complaint is when those choices are made due to misinformation.

[The Wright Stuff]

Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 02/02/2018 08:36:12:

Which brings us nicely back to square one. We fly what we choose to. My only complaint is when those choices are made due to misinformation.

Yes, agreed with all that, but isn't the thread about what will happen in the future, rather than what we do now? The fear is that we will eventually lose the choice that you so appreciate having!!!

[Trevor Crook]

Indeed, Jon. Unfortunately neither of the clubs I am in can cater for a 50cc i.c. powered model due to noise and space restrictions. My primary enjoyment from the hobby has always been the flying side of it, in latter years with trying to fly my scale models in a realistic way.

For me, a flying session is half a day, and because of the smaller (up to around 60" models I fly, I can normally fit three in the car. I take 10 or so batteries of assorted sizes for the models I take, no charging equipment, and find that gives me plenty of flying time, allowing for a bit of socialising. So electric power is absolutely perfect for me.

Incidentally, I did have a couple of Lasers in my i.c. days, a .50 and a .75. Great engines.

Edited By Pete B - Moderator on 02/02/2018 09:27:46

[Jon H]

Posted by The Wright Stuff on 02/02/2018 08:39:42:

Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 02/02/2018 08:36:12:

Which brings us nicely back to square one. We fly what we choose to. My only complaint is when those choices are made due to misinformation.

Yes, agreed with all that, but isn't the thread about what will happen in the future, rather than what we do now? The fear is that we will eventually lose the choice that you so appreciate having!!!

I think ic has a while left yet, or at least i really hope so!

Certainly our sales figures show that up to 30cc is where glow is still attractive and while some are still happy to fly our larger glows i think most would rather they were petrol, which is what we are working on.

While some engine manufacturers have gone to the wall new ones have popped up and while they mainly focus on a certain part of the market, and are usually a pretty penny, they are selling engines.

for Laser the issue is having the right engines for the current market. Our old Laser 61 was a revelation at the time, but now we look at it and shudder. We would recommend 20% castor at that point, now we recommend 10% synthetic oil and i would like to bring that down to 5 after more testing.

Trevor your comment is interesting as it highlights the assumption that a 50cc model would be noisy. While it would clearly be noisier than an electric model, my 50cc twins are easily drowned out by a dle55 or similar on its stock muffler. I have never actually noise tested my model as our club has no requirement to do so but next time i fly it will see if my high quality free noise meter app gives me any useful information.

[Piers Bowlan]

I am surprised you don't noise test your engines Jon and publish the results on your website. I would have thought that this would be quite a selling point in this noise sensitive age we live in. Many people may not appreciate how much quieter your glow four strokes are (on stock silencers) compared with the (Chinese) petrol two strokes on the market currently.

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 02/02/2018 11:28:46

[Tim Flyer]

One thing I would remark on is that it’s a shame Thunder Tiger stopped making their Ready “trainer”. That was/is the favourite ARTF for lots of guys at my club plus many experienced flyers had one, and I’m surprised if it wasn’t selling well. The strong (and heavy!) plastic body was very easy to clean and it made it a good winter plane too. I see from RCM&E magazine that Ripmax have updated the Wot Trainer, and obviously there is still the Boomerang too to keep that market supplied. We still have quite a number of 40- 60 glow 2s flyers as well as 4s in 70-150 sizes.

[Jon H]

Posted by Piers Bowlan on 02/02/2018 11:27:15:

I am surprised you don't noise test your engines Jon and publish the results on your website. I would have thought that this would be quite a selling point in this noise sensitive age we live in. Many people may not appreciate how much quieter your glow four strokes are (on stock silencers) compared with the (Chinese) petrol two strokes on the market currently.

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 02/02/2018 11:28:46

The problem is we do not have the facilities to really test it. I can nail an engine to my steel test stand and run it in a concrete courtyard surrounded by walls but that is not very representative.

Also the choice of propeller, the airframe and other factors can massively impact the noise of the engine and this alone means that any figures i give would be essentially meaningless unless my exact setup was copied.

I would like to be able to promote the softer noise of 4 stroke engines, but its something that is actually quite difficult to do.

[Phil 9]

Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 02/02/2018 08:36:12

Which brings us nicely back to square one. We fly what we choose to. My only complaint is when those choices are made due to misinformation.

or even worse. when choices are limited by others

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

The softer tone/noise of 4 strokes is pretty much accepted as a fact among i.c flyers, shouldn't need much promoting I reckon.

[Jez Saunders]

I have not read all of this thread but I believe the fairly recent technology that has enabled the ease using electric motors in model aircraft has greatly increased the take up of the hobby. I wonder how popular it would have been with out ?. There will always be a draw to the ic glow engine because that's part of the magic of a proper model aircraft, that's not saying that electric arn't magic but an ic engined one is a little more so !☺

[Jon H]

Posted by john stones 1 on 02/02/2018 12:04:09:

The softer tone/noise of 4 strokes is pretty much accepted as a fact among i.c flyers, shouldn't need much promoting I reckon.

Some of the new 50cc+ class motors are a touch shouty as they have no muffler at all. The torqpro 70 comes to mind as being really loud in its out of the box form but sounding quite nice with a decent exhaust on it.

In general though i agree with you, 4 strokes tend to be far less offensive and cause far less irritation. 

Edited By Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 02/02/2018 13:34:17

[John Stainforth]

I don't think it would be too difficult to compile a table of "typical noise levels of Laser engines" at 7m (i.e. according to the BMFA 7m test). All you would have to do would be to ask for volunteers to bring their Laser-powered models up to your local flying field to be tested. You could insist on a few standards such as APC props. Maybe you could get several clubs involved. I think it would be very useful, because some clubs are pretty fussy about noise.

[ChrisB]

You can’t beat a nice 4 stroke purring away in a scale model. IC won’t die, electric has its place, as does IC. It all depends on the model.

[Chris Walby]

So are we saying the death of IC will be the direct result of noise legislation?

Each to there own and most people fly both ic and electric, electric has a place, but so does ic

How about each of us run our IC up on a test stand and measure the noise level, then once built into a model measure again. Publish your results and we can pick over the bones!

Perhaps we have missed the point...what we need is sound absorbing airframes for both ic and electric (edf's)?

[The Wright Stuff]

Posted by Chris Walby on 02/02/2018 14:32:05:

So are we saying the death of IC will be the direct result of noise legislation?

Not directly, no, but indirectly, yes.

I can only speak for myself, but I am saying that the death of IC will be a result of the suppliers no longer wanting to supply, due to margins being too much lower than for electric, and lack of a big enough demand. Noise legislation is one contributing factor to the latter.

However, I think that time of death is several decades away, yet!

[Cuban8]

For what it's worth, my MO when it comes to keeping model engine noise acceptable is to adequately power the model in the first place and then use as large a diameter prop as is practical to keep the revs down but also maintain good flying qualities and performance, so a little experimentation might be called for. Not difficult to do.

My heart sinks when I see and hear a fourstroke powered 'plane WOT all the time, revving its nuts off and with the prop tips howling like a banshee but then not going particularly fast .

Edited By Cuban8 on 02/02/2018 15:12:23

[Trevor Crook]

Despite being an electric devotee, I feel i.c. will be around for a while yet for all but the smaller sizes. If Jon's business is healthy now hopfully it will continue to be so.

Jon, remembering the days of us noise testing our engines, I completely agree that there are so many installation variables that it would be impossible for an individual manufacturer to present meaningful figures.

Four strokes have two advantages - they only go bang every other revolution, and they tend to deliver power and torque at lower revs, which reduces prop noise.

I remember my Laser 75 easily meeting our club's noise limit with the standard, not very big, silencer.

[Erfolg]

Without immediately trying to draw any conclusions as if and when IC will become a minority preferred power source, some understanding of the current manufacturing scene would be helpful.

For instance diesels appear now to be a niche area in the UK. I can only think of PAW manufacturing any serious amounts of the devices.

With respect to Glow engines, many of the quality European manufacturers seem to have departed the scene. I am thinking of Super Tigre, HP, Irvine. Even some of the once famous Japanese manufacturers have either gone, or out put seems limited, Fugi, Enya. What has happened is that many of the up and coming economies have dabbled, such Thunder Tiger and a few more. They seem to abandon model engines as if they were a means to a more profitable ends.

Four strokes do intrigue, as so many seem to come and go, I am thinking Webra, plus a few more that for the moment allude me. I am not at all sure that there is one at my present club. For me the irony is, most of the manufacturers were and probably are producing a pretty classy engineering and aesthetically pleasing product. Are these IC engines made in pretty small numbers , because of their precision and perhaps the reflective cost.

When I started the use of large engines, typically a 50ccc Chain Engine were not common. there was nothing exotic available then. Now at my present club, there are numerous, although I do not think they are powertool engines any more. But my God are they noisy. You cannot think because of the racket in the pits. In the air, they seem more bearable. This is an area where the numbers must still be pretty small? I suspect that these are the engines that my daughter thinks are unacceptable, due to the immense damage that careless handling etc can cause.

It would be interesting to have a numerical and a financial feel as to the size of each section of the market, and who makes what.

Edited By Erfolg on 02/02/2018 18:52:50