Re: Death of IC

[Jon Laughton]

Andy C: what I want is to be allowed to enjoy flying responsibly with my ic fleet (& yes occasionally some electric models).

Technological developments may dictate the eventual death of ic but there are still plenty of people like myself and other above who are not so enamoured of electric power trains they want to want to give up ic altogether and we have every right to want to do what we do so any 'death' is going to take some time, probably longer than you think.

One thing that hasn't been raised here yet and which I have a 'professional' take on is the fact that some of the RC engine manufacturers are developing/have developed engines for the Commerical & military UAV markets and the level of demand for this is going to explode in the coming years. Yes there are electrically powered UAVs but right now they cannot compete on longer range / loiter requirements. Technological development will mean that IC engines in this market may also decline but there is still plenty of scope for petrol engines.

[Jonathan M]

Posted by Andy C on 01/02/2018 08:53:39:

My view is that most of you are looking at this the wrong way basing it purely on the here and now [...] For the future you have to consider where the investment is going....

Fair enough, but take the example of rubber: it is so 19th century, yet it remains - despite the presence of fabulously lightweight electrical technology - the dominant and thriving power-source for FF scale.

The hobby, even within just RC power, is a very broad church. Its okay to be an early-adopter of new technology, just as its okay to happily hang on to old-tech. But beware the investment in new-tech research and marketing - hence the dominance of electric in the magazines - doesn't overwhelm the interest in the older stuff.

[Jon Laughton]

On the question of favouring electric power over ic in RCME I'm not sure that this is really true as Alex W and B Winch are regular contributors. However I would prefer that reviews of new models, where there is a choice of power train, compared the two on a neutral basis but as the Editor is firmly in the 'electrickery' camp I guess that would be too much to ask?

Over to you Ed!

[Trevor Crook]

Regarding magazine reviews, I'm guessing that the mag reviews what the distributer sends them - I've never seen a review of one of the excellent little Durafly warbirds for example, presumably because Hobbyking aren't interested in providing one.

I think the mag reflects the current state of play. In both clubs I fly at, it's rare to see more than a couple of i.c. models (if any at all) amongst the dozen or more electric. I appreciate this ratio may be different in other clubs, especially outside the crowded south-east.

[Cuban8]

I can only relate my own experiences and of what's going on within the two clubs that I fly at.

New flyers present with with an electric trainer.

I'm not aware of any new purchases of 2S glow engines for ages

4S remains very popular, mostly glow but also a few petrol engines that have been variable in reliability. A steady number of new 4S glow purchases (just bought a NIB 120FS from BMFA classifieds myself).

Petrol 2S falling in popularity because of noise and the expense of after-market exhausts.

Three cell electric the most popular of the electric options.

Larger electric models not unknown but tend to be aerobatic types rather than scale.

EDF becoming popular, particularly the models with efficient fans that are very quiet.

[Bob Cotsford]

Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 01/02/2018 08:37:46:

Personally i like electric. I gives me ample opportunity to mock one of my club mates as he struggles to haul a hundred weight of leisure batteries down the long path to our field. :D

 

Now now Jon, no need to mock the afflicted. I do wonder why people buy huge leisure batteries which themselves need an overnight charge before a days flying instead of buying a few more LiPos to see them through a days flying without the hernias?

I have to admit to having less support tackle flying electric than ic. One ammo box containing 4 6S and 2 or 3 4S packs for larger models or half a dozen 3S packs for smaller v medium size flight box, fuel and starter.

Edited By Bob Cotsford on 01/02/2018 10:50:01

[Don Fry]

Posted by Nigel R on 01/02/2018 09:32:39:

Does anyone have the reverse experience with flight times on their electrics, to wit flying for longer using volts and amps?

"has anyone actuality done an environmental impact assessment for I/C and electric. "

Plenty have, if it is cars we are talking about.

IIRC electric comes out about neck and neck with existing petrol.

The picture changes, unsurprisingly, a lot if you are allowed to assume the car is charged from "green" power stations supplied by the magic electricity fairy. It'll be this second picture you are sold with the visions of silent tree hugging automotive nirvana.

No, for our long suffering stuff. Anyway, if no ne can do me the Grand National result, I'm bored, and will start to get my Khama tight for the rugby.

[Simon Chaddock]

I think it has been touched on but we should not forget the economies of volume production.

If popularity of any "device" falls there is a critical point where cheap volume production is no longer economic so the unit cost rises and demand fall still further an increasing rate.

This could certainly happen to IC as engines are relatively expensive to make and assemble when compared to a brush less motor.

The rest of electric's components (ESCs and batteries) are machine assembled anyway so will continue to be "cheap" providing there is the demand volume..

IC will of course remain, particularly in the larger sizes but it is likely to become increasingly expensive to do.

So keep hold of your "old" IC engines!

.

[gangster]

I am not sure if this is an isolated debate. Perhaps it is connected with the whote picture of the state and future of the hobby in the first place. I am a a modeller in his seventh decade and I suspect the majority of traditional modellers are also up there in their 5th 6th or 7th.

Perhaps that could be an interesting poll, unless we have already had it!

The world has changed and I suspect the way we are introduced to the hobby has also, Electric RTF, BNF and ARTF must have been the introduction to the hobby that many people have had in the last decade or so, probably just as well as the country is shrinking and there is less opportunity for flying noisier models, and in that I include all ics. The park flyer may be the only way for many and the market was there to supply that need.

Responsible established modellers may have also realised that building has got ever nearer to their field and electric is the way to go to avoid noise complaints.

Whilst "death of IC" might be slightly premature it was a brilliant title to start this debate and a visit to the 2017 nationals might have justified it. How many IC engines were for sale, very few compared with say 10 years ago, apart from a very few specialised engines. It would seem if you wanted a 40-90 sized 2 stroke you were left with a very few dealers selling a very few OS or SC/ASP engines.

Slighty off topic but just how do people get an introduction to the hobby, when I was a lad you could buy model aircraft kits in any small town, sports shops, hobby shops, bike shops etc. Every medium sized town had a model shop that had all an rc modeller could need, these started dying out about 20 years ago. We now have a very few specialist model shops, surviving on mail order, probably mostly from us established modellers, and hiding away on industrial estates.

The man in the street now seems only to have a few drones and basic park flyers to tempt them whilst out shopping from the likes of Argos Maplin and gadget shops. Not a path to IC methinks. It will be interesting to see what BMFA membership looks like in 10 or 15 yers.

[Nigel R]

I should relate a conversation my dad had with a shop owner some short while back, to whit:

Dad - "Sold many engines lately?"

Proprietor - "No."

Which matches what I see - almost all of my club are flying electric in small foamie though to 40 size airframes. A smattering of glow power remains.

Yes, lots of IC stock out there.

Yes, "Sunday best" (Laser, OS/Saito) are out there and doing nicely.

Yes, the guys who are doing the mass production thing best (ASP) are still there.

The volume of drivetrain sales is with electric.

Like most things, people go with whatever is cheapest and easiest (buying and use). For the average club model with the average club flyer, that's electric.

[Erfolg]

Yes it is the age of electric power, for almost everything.

I have a modest collection of IC motors, a Albion, 2 * ED Racers, AM 25, Paw 1.5, Enya 19, OS 25, A number of Merco, my proudest being a Profi 60.

Yet my favourite being my small but beautiful collection of old electric motors, a Tayco Meteor and Supermarine, a VIP Mighty Midget, a 005 Mabuchi. Far to few, I know. In years to come when all the IC collections are consigned to the recycling bin, silly prices will be offered for these collectors motors.

There is a major advantage with electric power that no one has as yet mentioned. Your spouse will permit the models to be stored inside the living areas of the house.

There is also the advantage that testing the motor set up in the garden does not arouse the ire of any neighbours. I have run the motor at full power, noting amps drawn and watts, noting the revs. Then taxied the model, checking ground handling, even a short run as if taking of. Non of which has been noted by anyone other than myself.

Just to finish of I have a Tayco Meteor on display in the lounge, which often draws favourable comment from visitors. Whereas the my very early Diesel was more often than not greeted with disdain as being ugly, environmentally unacceptable, before being banished by my wife to the dust bin as junk.

[John Stainforth]

Electric RTF foamies may be a good way of "getting people into the hobby", but will it keep them in? I personally started aeromodelling in the late 1950's and 60's for the challenge of building the planes and then the challenge of flying them. It had nothing to do with the ease of building or flying. I am grateful for ARTF's for getting me back into the hobby when I didn't have enough time to build models, but now that I have retired I have gone back to building because, after putting many ARTFs together, that gets rather tedious.

I worry more about the damage that RTF electrics are doing to the hobby than the demise of i.c. engines. Many people who buy "park flyers" take them out to a local park, without joining a club, and crash them or lose interest in them very quickly. It would be interesting to know what the average number of hours (or minutes) of flight time is on all the electric RTFs that have been sold. This particularly applies to camera-bearing drones with gyro stabilisation and GPS. I have one that I bought a year ago, and it's amassed a total of about half an hour of flying! It's wonderful technology, and if I was using it of commercial purposes I would love it. But flying it is pretty dull. To land it, you hit a switch and it flies back until it is overhead and than lands at one's feet. Miraculous, but about as interesting as turning off the TV with the remote!

[Nigel R]

"I worry more about the damage that RTF electrics are doing to the hobby "

About as much as buying an kit, radio and engine, realising you can't build and have made a rubbish job of it, aren't that interested in fixing it, have no idea how to operate any of the stuff, make a half baked attempt to fly from some local football pitch, binning the lot, used to do. I imagine.

At least with the BNF park flyers there is a reasonable chance of getting airbourne and seeing what flying is about.

[John Stainforth]

Erfolg,

I guarantee that a Laser V in your house (yes, in the living area of the house) will induce gasps of praise and admiration, at least from the male half of the species. By comparison, electric motors in the vicinity are likely to be more or less ignored, like unwanted wallflowers!

BTW cupboards in the house are ideal places to store model planes, and after a bit, you never know, your wife may come to appreciate the pleasant faint aroma of glow fuel. (She may even take up the hobby.)

[The Wright Stuff]

Posted by John Stainforth on 01/02/2018 12:25:41:

I worry more about the damage that RTF electrics are doing to the hobby than the demise of i.c. engines.

Has anyone stopped to ask the question: "Why is there no I.C. RTF mass market?" Presumably the rise of RTF and the demise of I.C. is correlated to some extent...

[Nightflyer]

Wow, my initial post has started a good debate. I have to say that I agree with some of the points Jon and Nigel R highlight.

Definitely the view that electric is simple is not true. With such a variety of motors, kv ratings and all the rest, it makes it hard for newcomers to make a selection which is where the ARTF market helps them.

For me the days of taking electric power to fit in between my i.c. flights and help maximise airtime has changed with the fact that where I fly is solely electric these days. As far as models are concerned I have converted a number of i.c. ones to electric over the years with varying levels of performance success usually due to the technologies available at the time. Though I would say that these days with motors and cells available that the chances of success and good performance are significantly improved.

I think though that the variety of options for powered flight is great as it allows one to experiment etc. But, for a newcomer it must be very bewildering.

[Nigel R]

"Why is there no I.C. RTF mass market?"

The answer for novices should need no further explanation?

For pilots with some experience, I thought there was a mass market of glow airframes?

[John Stainforth]

"Why is there no I.C. RTF mass market?"

Isn't this because the profit margins for the manufacturers and distributors are way higher on RTFs (plastics and foamies) than balsa and ply ARTFs? In America, the distributors are reducing their lines of ARTFs for that reason. And you can't hang an I.C. engine on a foamy too easily. So perhaps the relative increase in electrics is being driven partly by the supply side rather than the demand side.

[The Wright Stuff]

Posted by John Stainforth on 01/02/2018 13:28:23:

"Why is there no I.C. RTF mass market?"

Isn't this because the profit margins for the manufacturers and distributors are way higher on RTFs (plastics and foamies) than balsa and ply ARTFs? In America, the distributors are reducing their lines of ARTFs for that reason. And you can't hang an I.C. engine on a foamy too easily. So perhaps the relative increase in electrics is being driven partly by the supply side rather than the demand side.

Exactly!

[Erfolg]

John

If only you had experienced the positive comments from fellow Engineers, those with artistic inclinations, where a range of reactions are encountered, some appreciating the Electrical Engineering, others the form, the mix of materials.

Some have passed the odd positive comment with respect to the Profi, its mix of colour, some speculating about materials. It is the engine on the right now cleaned up and mounted on a perspex block.

What has surprised me is the general acknowledgement that the person in the street seeing that electric is the future. That IC is about as relevant as a Steam Engine in this age.

I know many wives will not allow those "smelly oil dripping things" in the house, the models often banished to garages and sheds. Whereas we have a Gee Bee standing on the coffee table (electric of course). At Christmas at a little neighbour get together it really was a hit.

Edited By Erfolg on 01/02/2018 15:17:39

[Erfolg]

I thought a picky of our coffee table would be nice.

[John Stainforth]

Erfolg,

You will be glad to know that I am very interested in Electrical and Electronic Engineering and actually went to Leeds University to study that subject in 1969 (though I changed to Earth Sciences later because I wanted a more "outdoors" job). In the early 1960's I made single channel radio gear (TX and RX and Galloping Ghost) from scratch, etching printed circuit boards, and all the mechanical parts of the TX as well. For the transmitter joy sticks I used Woolworth screwdrivers with the handles rounded down. It is not that I don't like electrics, it is just that I prefer flying i.c. powered models - although I do have several electric ones.

I also think that i.c. is still relevant today, especially as scale models are all of full-size aeroplanes that are powered by i.c engines. I have given my word to several people that I will move over fully to electric powered models the day that all the Rolls Royce Merlins in vintage Spitfires etc have been swopped out for big electric motors.

Also, I fly in full size planes about forty times a year - and I am off to Arabia tomorrow in a typical modern airliner (787) - so i.c. engines are still relevant to me and quite a lot of other travellers.

Remember too that the aeroplane owes its existence to the invention of the i.c.engine, so surely i.c. is somewhat relevant to our hobby.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Don Fry on 01/02/2018 09:23:18:

Any of you future gazers care to tell me who's going to win the FACup, Grand National, so I can win a few bob. You pay for the bet, bet, I take the winnings.

PS, has anyone actuality done an environmental impact assessment for I/C and electric. Flat ascertions are acceptable in politics, but we are better than that here.

Spurs for the FA Cup, Bookies to win Grand National.

I cause just as much pollution driving to field, whether I take i.c or lecky and brexit means brexit.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Nigel R on 01/02/2018 11:47:53:

I should relate a conversation my dad had with a shop owner some short while back, to whit:

Dad - "Sold many engines lately?"

Proprietor - "No."

Which matches what I see - almost all of my club are flying electric in small foamie though to 40 size airframes. A smattering of glow power remains.

Yes, lots of IC stock out there.

Yes, "Sunday best" (Laser, OS/Saito) are out there and doing nicely.

Yes, the guys who are doing the mass production thing best (ASP) are still there.

The volume of drivetrain sales is with electric.

Like most things, people go with whatever is cheapest and easiest (buying and use). For the average club model with the average club flyer, that's electric.

Define "average club modeller" most at our club are i.c, newbies included.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Lecky made big inroads at our club myself included, and rightly so, it's very good, very few stopped flying i.c altogether, some who started lecky now fly i.c as well or even i.c only. Biggest upsurge has been petrol models though of late, more big models than ever, 20cc models are almost as common place as the 40-60 glow models once where. Glow got squeezed at both ends of the scale plus in the middle. Is it dead ? No it'll outlive us easily.