Who said it would never happen in our lifetime

[kevin lane]

Latest from the Paris air show

[Nigel R]

what would never happen?

[Jon H]

He miss posted the link.

**LINK**

Looks great, but i think the cart is being put before the horse as it looks like its not even flown yet. Its also tiny so its more like a business jet than an airliner.

[Frank Skilbeck]

And Rills Royce are getting in on this too by acquiring the Seimens aerospace electric propulsion division.

[Jon H]

Oh im sure it will come Frank. But when you consider the amount of energy needed to fly an aircraft the size of an A350 or 777 from australia to new york or australia to london in one hit as quantas are going to do with their project sunrise set up electric just isnt there yet.

The zero emission thing is a load of marketing though. You still have to charge the thing up and just imagine the amount of energy required if all cars and planes were electric. Our grid would melt. You can build more power stations, but unless the power stations are something eco friendly all you do is move the carbon emissions somewhere else.

[Peter Miller]

The real problem is not all the emissions. The real problem is population.

Someone let slip on the radio the other day that the world population has DOUBLED since 1976

All those extra people want cars, heating, lighting, air travel (Well a lot of them) and all the goods.

Then we have the huge costs of making clothes unless we all turn nudist. This has been highlighted onthe radio recently

In short, as long as the population keeps growing at that rate there is NOTHING that will stop polution.and emissions

Never mind, we won't have to. Nature has a way of dealing with over population. A nice big plague will bring it down to civilised levels!

ME? I won't be here I am very glad to say.

[Andrew767]

Posted by Peter Miller on 20/06/2019 09:08:21:

The real problem is not all the emissions. The real problem is population.

Someone let slip on the radio the other day that the world population has DOUBLED since 1976

All those extra people want cars, heating, lighting, air travel (Well a lot of them) and all the goods.

Then we have the huge costs of making clothes unless we all turn nudist. This has been highlighted onthe radio recently

In short, as long as the population keeps growing at that rate there is NOTHING that will stop polution.and emissions

Never mind, we won't have to. Nature has a way of dealing with over population. A nice big plague will bring it down to civilised levels!

ME? I won't be here I am very glad to say.

+1

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Cuban8]

Posted by Andrew767 on 20/06/2019 09:21:31:

Posted by Peter Miller on 20/06/2019 09:08:21:

The real problem is not all the emissions. The real problem is population.

Someone let slip on the radio the other day that the world population has DOUBLED since 1976

All those extra people want cars, heating, lighting, air travel (Well a lot of them) and all the goods.

Then we have the huge costs of making clothes unless we all turn nudist. This has been highlighted onthe radio recently

In short, as long as the population keeps growing at that rate there is NOTHING that will stop polution.and emissions

Never mind, we won't have to. Nature has a way of dealing with over population. A nice big plague will bring it down to civilised levels!

ME? I won't be here I am very glad to say.

+1

Try putting the above argument (that I happen to agree with) to the politicians and various other agencies and you'll be tarred with the 'old anti civil liberties, it's my right to do as I want brush' and to hell with who has to pick up the bill or face the consequences. The finger is usually pointed at China's discredited one child policy and is used as a false trump card to stifle debate on population growth and any attempt at manipulating it in a positive way.

Well, I'd say that humanity has already been pretty good at manipulating its population through its abilities, on the one hand to wage war industrially, and on the other to reduce early mortality through treating infectious and chronic diseases to miniscule levels compared to the past (as a % of population) certainly in what we refer to as the developed world and increasingly in poorer areas.

As with many problems facing us today, the solutions to our ills are usually to be found on multiple fronts, but politicians and those who seek power tend to set the agenda as to what gets priority as it suits their short term political ends.

Simplistically, If your house is falling down and needs underpinning, you don't usually ignore it and concentrate on redecorating your front room.

Edited By Cuban8 on 20/06/2019 10:23:47

[Shaun Walsh]

Too true, humans are a virus that will eventually kill its host, pass the Soylent green please.

[Simon Feather]

Here you go: this is what powers the Alice, and suitable for retro-fitting to Otters and Beavers, they say, for ranges up to 1000 miles.**LINK**

[J D 8]

Peter is right, the real Elephant in the room is population growth. When I was born in the early 50,s there were some 2 billion people on the planet. Up from less than a billion pre industrial revolution.

Now in less than a  lifetime we are heading for 8 billion !

In the early 70,s The Club of Rome published "The Limits of Growth" that predicted the future of mankind. Very much poo pooed by leaders of the world at the time and ignored by those that followed.

We are very much on the track of those predictions of nearly fifty years ago despite many suggestions how things could be improved. All ignored because of short term greed.

I truly believe that those of us who were born or grown up in the latter half of the last century are the luckiest generation's

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By J D 8 on 20/06/2019 11:40:24

[Jon H]

Posted by Andrew Ray on 20/06/2019 10:14:18:

Posted by Jon - Laser Engines on 20/06/2019 08:32:28:

Looks great, but i think the cart is being put before the horse as it looks like its not even flown yet.

But this Airbus electric plane has. Admittedly it is even smaller but look where electric model flight started and where it is now.

Yea the airbus effort is up there flying about and has been for a few years. Still cant buy one, although i think it was always intended as a tech demo for internal work.

As for the motor, sure it looks great and it might very well haul small to moderate aircraft around but its still a fair way off Sydney to London with 350 people in tow

I know all this electric transport stuff is very trendy but realistically its not viable yet, at least not for everyone. The infrastructure isnt there for it for a start. Tesla are going nowhere with their battery powered big rig and their cars arent doing brilliantly either.

It will all come in time and in the meanwhile its all about getting as much efficiency as possible from what we already have

[Nigel R]

Jon, it's an awful lot easier to put infrastructure in a few airports than it is to sort out the entire country with charge points. Range anxiety is not a factor in commercial aviation. After all fuel loads are only ever 'enough to get there plus safety margin'. Provided the battery gets you that, job done. Real problem is still weight as far as I know.

If I remember right, the electric Cri Cri beat the Airbus offering to the channel crossing by a few days/weeks/months?

Expect mixed mode propulsion to come to market before all-electric. i.e. turboprop + electric, where electric boosts takeoff power, possibly on the same shaft for smaller airframes, then the turboprop can run very efficiently at cruise. Or similar, even conventional IC + electric boost.

One of the considerations here is airport noise; the electric boost is less intrusive than only conventional. You might even see something like an electric prop nacelle plus a jet nacelle on each wing, where the prop is obviously of little help at cruise speed.

[Nigel R]

Incidentally the population growth topic, the more recent predictions are having human population level off. Particularly as third world countries approach a more first world type situation with health and lifespan.

[Jon H]

Oh for sure airports are easier to update than the road network. We would still be lacking the power generation infrastructure though.

I am not sure about the mixed mode power system as you need to carry a bunch of kit that is not doing anything most of the time. On a car they work well as you can use the electric boost for acceleration but aircraft tend to just cruise along.

I know that at one point easy jet were looking at fitting electric wheels to their aircraft so they can taxi over to the end of the runway and then fire up the engines. After all the required checks are complete its straight onto the runway and off. The fuel saving predicted was significant and the weight of the system was low enough to be offset by the saved fuel.

I wonder if they will try the same principals as a diesel electric train with two (for redundancy) small ish turbines generating electrical power. You could then live with smaller/lighter batteries and a smaller amount of fuel burn. This might work well if weight is an issue as the batteries are heavy and most aircraft can take off at higher weight than they can land. You can dump fuel in an emergency, but i doubt dumping batteries is an option.

In any case, the only way any airline will adopt any of this stuff is if its cheaper than what they have now. They only buy new aircraft like A350's because they use less fuel than a 747 doing the same job. Until its cost effective i suspect airlines wont touch it.

[J D 8]

Nigel, Latest predictions of population growth from those not afraid to tell the truth show it continuing to grow exponentially for the next fifty years and this despite a decline in output of necessary stuff like food and energy per person. Many more people will be just surviving not "living".

Life standards are already declining in many third and second world country's Re the large increase in migrants around the world looking for a better life as their own lands degenerate into conflict. Often said to be for religious or tribal reasons there is nearly always an underlying grab for resources

John.

.

[FilmBuff]

Before anymore nonsense is spouted about population growth (and its thinly veiled xenophobia) please watch this TED video by the late, great Hans Rosling.

Hans Rosling TED Talk

[Alex Ferguson 2]

Posted by Peter Miller on 20/06/2019 09:08:21:

The real problem is not all the emissions. The real problem is population.

The real problem is population.

Your problem is you didn't put that in bold type a mile high - YES, that is the REAL(TM) problem and no one mentions it. Why?

[J D 8]

SAVE THE PLANET is what people say.

The planet has existed for four billion years and will go on for about another four billion years until the sun runs out of fuel and becomes a red giant star and swallows up the earth.

IT is not the planet that needs saving. It is the human race and many of the creatures that live along side us.

But I guess " SAVE THE HUMAN RACE " does not have the same ring to it and is to close to the truth of what is about to happen should we fail to take action over pollution and population growth.

[Jon H]

Posted by J D 8 on 21/06/2019 08:31:30:

SAVE THE PLANET is what people say.

The planet has existed for four billion years and will go on for about another four billion years until the sun runs out of fuel and becomes a red giant star and swallows up the earth.

IT is not the planet that needs saving. It is the human race and many of the creatures that live along side us.

But I guess " SAVE THE HUMAN RACE " does not have the same ring to it and is to close to the truth of what is about to happen should we fail to take action over pollution and population growth.

very true JD. If we wipe ourselves out the planet will be just fine. Look at the area around Chernobyl. Nature has reclaimed most of it already and will continue to do so.

How long have humans been on earth? about 200,000 years? 200,000 out of a planetary life span of about 9 billion. The dinosaurs came and went in about 180 million years. We are not even the blink of an eye in terms of this planet's history.