Dallas Crisp Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 Hi Phil Thank you for your reply. Attending a fly -in at the Orme is an event that I have always wanted to be involved in, but this coronavirus has a mind of its own. Have only used glass cloth once before and the resin I used had the consistency of honey , thus resulting in the model being too heavy, maybe my technique!! Fellow modelers told me that I should have thinned the resin with metho or denatured alcohol. I queried the suppliers on thinning their resin and they strongly warned me against this. Phil how would you describe the consistency of your skinning resin? Is it thinner than normal resin used in boat building? Glassing models is not one of my strong points. Have searched Australian Hobby Stores for Skinning Resin with no luck. Again thank you for your time Dallas Crisp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Gay Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 Dallas, I use West Systems 105 epoxy. It is not exactly cheap but has a low viscosity. A quick google search revealed lots of stockists in Australia. This random pick is in Queensland: http://atlcomposites.com.au/category/13/WEST-SYSTEM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Garsden Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 I use laminating resin which is the right consistency, or Finishing resin which is quite thin, and is made by Z Poxy - https://wheelspinmodels.co.uk/i/276692/?gclid=CjwKCAjwrvv3BRAJEiwAhwOdM8dZUXmYBbuc7q2IK04IDLIz6CILnWvT-0q855-2VrYLCMB-DFYvkRoC4rgQAvD_BwE. The reason you should never dilute resin with metho or acetone is that it increases massively the setting time and usually means it never sets! I did it once - never again - that may have been epoxy glue however. Best way to prevent the resin being too thick is to spread it with an old credit card as thin as you dare then dab the surface with Kitchen Towel. I use a Proxxon Shoe Sander to flatten out any lumps afterwards. Alternatively you can use Water Based Varnish but you need about 6 coats to fill the weave - I use Ezecote - https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/193477084239?chn=ps. That is what I have used before and it is very easy to apply with a brush. Edited By Peter Garsden on 03/07/2020 08:36:41 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Meade Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 All good advice men! The viscosity of the Gurit resin I use is around about single cream, if that helps. If thick like honey, you could heat it slightly to make it runnier, the corollary of that though is less working time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted July 3, 2020 Author Share Posted July 3, 2020 Yep, I use the fighter aces resin and 'single cream' is a good description on the viscosity. Straight out of the bottle mixed 1:2.5 and well stirred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Crisp Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Hi Martin, Peter, Andy, Phil Thank you for all your feedback, great advice. Will chase up the West System 105 and do some practice runs before I try to apply it to my F-86. Will let you know how I get on. Remember if you are ever in the Southern Hemisphere you have to come slope soaring with us, Norfolk Island is truly a most beautiful Island. Thank you all for your time keep safe Dallas Crisp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirk tinck Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 I googled Norfolk Island this weekend Dallas,and i must say that it's a beautiful place to go on vacation !Another thing on my bucket list ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted July 27, 2020 Author Share Posted July 27, 2020 Well, I'm back underway after a 2 week break from Sabre building spanned either side of the first PSSA event of the season, my first time out flying since October last year - which did me no end of good both mentally and physically! As the fuselage is still in final shaping and glassing around the complex bits, I've recommenced work on the surface finish prep for those parts already glassed and sanded. The wing, ailerons, tailplanes and rudder. Having discussed the benefits at length, I was keen on this build to try out the 'Freddy B's secret sauce' method as championed on this forum by fellow Sabre builder McG 6969. The aim here is to eliminate the need for either the second resin flow coat or deep fill primer to fill the weave, instead relying on the filling and sanding properties of talc and varnish with the benefits of reduced weight and ease of sanding. I followed the recipe to the letter and did some trials on scrap wood and then part of the glassed wingtip. The mix is about equal measures (on volume) of lightweight filler, Diamond Hard Varnish and Talc, all mixed up with a splash of paint for contrast and sufficient water added to thin it to a consistency of thick gloss paint. Heres my first trials piece, a length of light ply, not as pourous or grainy as balsa...slapped on thick here. And this is a thinner coat on the glassed and initial sanded wingtip, shown wet. Below it's dried overnight. It proved very easy to sand back with a fine foam block and its clearly done the job as intended - the resulting surface felt much smoother when sanded back to the glass. A second coat and resand I think will finish the job off lovely ready for final primer. I will weigh the wing before and after to see what the resultant weight gain is. I'll also change the paint colour in the next run as the grey/brown isnt contrasting enough with the glass on balsa so its hard to see how much is left in the weave when it's sanded back. Edited By Phil Cooke on 27/07/2020 12:37:31 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McG 6969 Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 Fine to have you back to the building board, Phil. ... and glad you decided to give Fred's Sauce a go. IIRC, the first one who tried it was Robert P. with his triple-engine Dornier seaplane and he ended up quite satisfied. Reading your first comments, your experience is appearing quite positive as well. I realize I'm a bit maniac - Iris would correct me with 'totally' - when insisting on contrasting layers, but glad you now realized it yourself. By the way, did you receive my PM reply? Looking forward to seeing your progression with the Sauce... Cheers & keep safe Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted July 28, 2020 Author Share Posted July 28, 2020 Hiya Chris, yes I read and understood your PM - many thanks for the guidance. I've given all the finshed parts a second coat of sauce, mixed with some red acrylic paint this time to aid contrast for improved sanding back - much easier visually! Tailplanes with a good second coat all dry and ready for sanding back - it sands very easily and quickly. You can clearly see the residual material filling the weave - even on the second coat. It's left a lovely smooth surface now ready for top primer and paint. Edited By Phil Cooke on 28/07/2020 12:46:49 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted July 29, 2020 Author Share Posted July 29, 2020 All sauced, sanded smooth and ready for the final primer... right back on with the fus glassing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirk tinck Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 I really want to know the result when the primer and paint is on for a week or three .From my automotive background i suspect every one-component filler from the fact , that they keep on drying for ages and thus keep sucking up the paint ! The quality of products surely has improved over the years , so your result could be as good as any !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted July 30, 2020 Author Share Posted July 30, 2020 Hi Dirk, I'm hoping this works well too, my first trial with this method but it comes very highly recommended and proven. Its certainly sanded to a lovely smooth finish with very little weight gain, now ready for primer and paint. Perhaps I will give the primer a real good drying period before top coat, to mitigate your potential risks?? This weekend I am building the fuselage stand as you did to aid with glassing and painting! I do love all this joint method development, sharing of ideas and improvement generation! Edited By Phil Cooke on 30/07/2020 20:03:35 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted August 1, 2020 Author Share Posted August 1, 2020 Final shaping and prep for glass - I thought I'd follow Dirk's lead once again and build myself the rotating fuselage jig he'd devised which will be a massive helping hand throughout both glass and paint! The baton wood I had in stock, it did cost me a trip to B&Q for some wing nuts and threaded rod (which they no longer stock!) so I had to use 120mm M6 bolts to the same effect. You can adjust the fuselage position on the bolts, about 30mm sticks into the fuselage front and back through 6mm holes drilled into F1 and F10. A silicon washer behind the big metal washer stops it spinning with just enough grip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McG 6969 Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 ... superb as usual, even if you 'copycatted' Dirk's concept. I guess I will have to do the same, even if I have some 6mm threaded rods available... Cheers & be safe all Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Crisp Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 Hi Phil Top idea, will also copy Dirk's painting and sanding jig. Stay safe, Dallas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Garsden Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 You can also use that to hold the fuselage if you are going to make a lost foam version like I do occasionally. Edited By Peter Garsden on 03/08/2020 20:19:51 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted August 15, 2020 Author Share Posted August 15, 2020 Another break period from the Sabre around our annual trip to the Lleyn peninsula which - due to light winds and high pressure, meant we did little flying and much sun bathing! Anyway I'm slowly moving the Sabre forwards again, now the event has been slipped to May '21 we can afford to take this at a pace which remains enjoyable!! I'm at that stage where every job involves sanding... either final shaping prior to glass, final glass sanding ready for primer, or final primer sanding ready for paint... sanding, sanding, sanding! The fuselage is very nearly there ready for some glass... just a few minor areas still a little proud to the touch as we try to remove all the '50 pence' edges off the planking. I've noticed the fus gets a little 'squishy' now between the formers just ahead of the tail, meaning I can't afford to take much more off! Quite happy with the planking and the sanding, it's never perfect though and I'm sure the primed glass will highlight more work ahead! The tanks and pylons are now all finished ready for final primer. The pylons were glassed and got some sauce in the remaining weave, the tanks themselves were filler primed and any blemishes taken out with some red-spot. The wing looks like it's been skinned - literally! Having sanded back the glass I've just mixed up some more sauce with a few splashes of red acrylic to visually aid the sanding back. This is a quick process and the wing will very soon be ready for final primer and paint. Both the wing and the tanks still require some fins or fences making and fitting before then though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McG 6969 Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 Nice and neat progress, Phil. Even at your 'enjoyable pace', you'll be priming soon now. If I'm allowed a suggestion > you seem to have some substantial brushstrokes showing with the Sauce. Maybe you could use a 'softer' brush to apply it. I always use the softest I have at hand, close to 'silky' soft. Cheers & stay at enjoyable pace Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted August 16, 2020 Author Share Posted August 16, 2020 Hiya Chris, Yes the brushstrokes are very evident, my brush isnt the best quality, and there is a real technique to applying it. In this case I have added 2 thin coats now, I will just have to sand through the excess where any local ridges have been left by my brushing, but as you know, it sands very nicely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McG 6969 Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 No worries, Phil. ... and indeed, Fred's Sauce is sanding down just like butter. Nothing to compare with P88 or even build-up filler... My best (read 'easiest) results were when I 'crossed' the layers , i.e. waiting for the first one to dry up a little and then applying the second one at 90°. Then sanding down when dry and applying the second layer (or third and fourth, if you prefer) the same way. Here also, I guess...' practice makes skills'... Cheers & keep cool Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirk tinck Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 Maybe try a spunge roller to apply the sauce? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted August 17, 2020 Author Share Posted August 17, 2020 Yep - thats a good idea - I'm all done now on the wings, tails and flappy bits, I'll consider using the small roller when we get to that stage on the fuselage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McG 6969 Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 Hi Dirk & Phil, I never tried a foam roller for the Sauce but that seems to be a great idea. Or a combination of the two, brushing on the Sauce and then 'level' it with the roller... I'll have to try it out when at that stage later on. Cheers & keep cool, gents Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Cooke Posted August 17, 2020 Author Share Posted August 17, 2020 Well the wing is now all sanded back having been brush painted with 2 thin layers of the sauce. The completed wing before any sauce application weighed in at 507.7g. With 2 coats of the sauce added this increased to 530.5g. After a good sanding back, with the sauce now just filling the low spots in the glass weave, the total weight has reduced to 516.5g, meaning the 'flow coat' has only weighed in at 8.8g. I'm quite pleased with that, and the surface feels really good to the touch - it's finished all over now ready for top primer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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