The Gov't, CAA, BMFA & UAV legislation thread

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Erfolg]

John, it is not about punishment, it is about survival. If we just look at the BMFA, I expect some aspects are now running at a loss, in areas which are not core. BMFA general membership is for me a core area, the NFC is not, there could well be more similar areas for all I know.

I am continuously reading in the news about businesses which are shedding divisions and non essential activities. Cash calls are being made, loans taken out, calls to government for grants, all to survive, as a small enterty of what they were just six or so months ago.

With our age demographic, which has unfortunate impact on membership and the less than equivalent new participants in out hobby, repeated increases in membership charges, may not be a viable way forward.

I am now sensing that Covid will be effecting at least two years into the future. On that basis any decisions will be a judgement call on what is sensible.

What is important is that the BMFA focuses on any changes on how the hobby of flying models is regulated, to minimise the impact on what we do. To remain viable as the BMFA, the hobby cannot really afford any significant or even small numbers who fly models. Any changes in regulation may even have an adverse affect on Insurance terms and premiums.

I do not want to appear to be pessimistic, more, I want us to ensure that the hobby and modelling retails remains viable. There is a lot to play for. I want to look back and say it all was a storm in a tea cup, nothing has changed.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

It's about punishment, me, me, me, it's about constantly pouring scorn on people.

Your hobby needs support, you already downed tools and came in with doom n gloom..

[Peter Jenkins]

Posted by Erfolg on 01/11/2020 22:29:37:

BMFA general membership is for me a core area, the NFC is not, there could well be more similar areas for all I know.

I do not want to appear to be pessimistic, more, I want us to ensure that the hobby and modelling retails remains viable. There is a lot to play for. I want to look back and say it all was a storm in a tea cup, nothing has changed.

Erfolg, the BMFA News could be looked at as a considerable saving. Apparently, according to comments made on this forum, a good many throw the BMFA News in the bin without reading it. So, it could go on line and save a lot of money in printing and distribution costs. I would have thought that you might have picked up on that but no it's the NFC. Have you ever visited it? Have you seen the number of groups who make use of it and not all attendees are locals.

It is your opinion that the NFC is non core. Council, who took the decision, didn't think so. Can you imagine the row that funding a selected number of Clubs around the country to improve their flying sites instead of one BMFA facility open to all? Those who suggested that were mistaken.

The core business of the BMFA has to be to represent the sport to ensure that we get our views taken note of whenever legislation is proposed that impinges on our activities. I would say that the BMFA has done this with knobs on over the Drone issue. Having the NFC allows the BMFA to invite key people there to show them what model flying is about and why it is so important to the a significant number of voters. We are, after all, the largest single segment of the Air Sports grouping.

I do hope we'll be spared yet another long treatise on what the BMFA should or should not be doing.

[Erfolg]

Peter, I do not think or suggest that the BMFA is not doing its best with respect to the initial registration requirements, nor what is presently under discussion. I will remind people that we are already a long way from the position that nothing is going to change with respect to the then regulations. I was concerned by the statement, in that it seemed complacent. Although the the events at Heathrow had not occurred at that point.

IMO the threats to the viability of the hobby are still here, and could be a game changer, for the worse. I sincerely hope that nothing is imposed, and todays concerns are forgotten.

With respect to the NFC, I understood that there would not be any cross funding from the BMFA . That the accounts would be kept separate etc. We are where we are, from my perspective I would not want to see, that BMFA membership fees increasing to pay for any temporary or long term issues arising from the NFC, without the membership being aware of the situation and that any funding that was to happen, was not voted on by the membership, not area delegates or other similar method. I am more interested in the financial and continued viability of the BMFA, than the NFC. Perhaps my worries about these present times are unfounded.

I also am concerned that any who not yes men (people) are seen as loose cannons or anti something or other, rather than seeking to ensure that our organisation is serving its members interest. Members and their clubs are very important to me.

[Lima Hotel Foxtrot]

At the risk of moving away from that cherished, and oft repeated, NFC food fight... I renewed my operator thingy today via the CAA website. Easy, painless, quick. And if it contributes to the argument that we are a law abiding lot who register then so much the better.

I do wonder how many people will not bother re-registering due to not seeing any immediate material change to their flying activities? And if any resulting revenue difference will result in a higher fee next year?

[MattyB]

Posted by Peter Jenkins on 02/11/2020 23:48

...Having the NFC allows the BMFA to invite key people there to show them what model flying is about and why it is so important to the a significant number of voters. We are, after all, the largest single segment of the Air Sports grouping.

Has that actually happened though? I would have thought if it had would have been some publicity associated with the visit via the BMFA News and website. Personally I highly doubt the CAA would conduct such a visit given a) the long-standing working relationship they have with the BMFA, and b) the fact it is highly unlikely to teach them anything they don’t already know.

[MattyB]

Posted by Lima Hotel Foxtrot on 03/11/2020 14:49:23:

I do wonder how many people will not bother re-registering due to not seeing any immediate material change to their flying activities? And if any resulting revenue difference will result in a higher fee next year?

I agree, especially given the upcoming lockdown which will prevent most of not all flying. Certainly if my Op ID was up at this point I would be waiting to see what the operational authorisation From the BMFA included before renewing in the new year when things are hopefully clearer.

[Peter Jenkins]

I will do what I did last year and pay my additional £9 when I pay my Club Subs in Dec/Jan.

[cymaz]

Posted by Peter Jenkins on 03/11/2020 23:45:56:

I will do what I did last year and pay my additional £9 when I pay my Club Subs in Dec/Jan.

I will do the same. My club has approved , by the committee, if you pay your club subs by 16 January the club will pay the CAA fee for you. We have some money spare in the bank which is doing nothing. After 16 January the member pays.

[Peter Christy]

Posted by MattyB on 03/11/2020 22:45:41:

Personally I highly doubt the CAA would conduct such a visit given a) the long-standing working relationship they have with the BMFA, and b) the fact it is highly unlikely to teach them anything they don’t already know.

I'm not so sure how knowledgeable the CAA are on modelling matters. They seem to rely heavily on the BMFA.

A few years ago (before drones became an issue), I was helping out on the helicopter flight-line at the Nats. A party of VIPs from the CAA was being shown round, and I was asked to give them some info on RC helicopters. Their first question was "How far can they go?", and they were quite surprised when I told them that the limitation was not radio range, or even eye-sight range, but how far you could see it well enough to maintain control. This distance is significantly less than it is for a fixed-wing aircraft. A fixed-wing aircraft will almost always be going the way it is pointing. A helicopter can be pointing one way and flying in a completely different direction! This means that the pilot must have a far better view of it to maintain control than for fixed-wing. ie: It needs to be kept closer!

The CAA bods were smart enough to see this once it had been pointed out to them, but you could tell that it was something that had never occurred to them previously.

Whilst model flying and full-size have a lot in common, there are significant differences. The CAA may well be experts in the full-size world, but have no doubt, there are big gaps in their knowledge of model flying. To fill those gaps, they must rely heavily on the BMFA.

And this is before we even consider political decisions that are out of their hands!

--

Pete

[Cuban8]

Posted by MattyB on 03/11/2020 22:48:32:

Posted by Lima Hotel Foxtrot on 03/11/2020 14:49:23:

I do wonder how many people will not bother re-registering due to not seeing any immediate material change to their flying activities? And if any resulting revenue difference will result in a higher fee next year?

I agree, especially given the upcoming lockdown which will prevent most of not all flying. Certainly if my Op ID was up at this point I would be waiting to see what the operational authorisation From the BMFA included before renewing in the new year when things are hopefully clearer.

I think that these are very important points and as the years tick by and IMHO, we'll find ourselves pretty much carrying on as usual without the skies over our flying fields turned black with thousands of commercial drones delivering Pizza 24/7 .......what then? How long do we wait before someone comes forward, Oliver Twist style, and says "please sir, where are all the drones that we are supposed to be such a menace to"?

We are where we are now, fair enough, and we've seen a few technology demonstrators of specialist systems that may or may not prove their worth in the fullness of time. Let me put it like this - if in five years time, UK airspace is still pretty much as it is now as regards commercial delivery drones (pre Covid of course) and we've been relieved annually of our CAA fees five times over, will we be within our rights to question the worth of five years of 'putting the cart before the horse' and how long it might continue?

[Erfolg]

I do intend renewing via the BMFA.

Why, I do not see the cancellation of the scheme any time soon, say 5 years. I also envisage that the CAA will have allocated funding based on data inputting, system maintenance and management of the scheme. There will have been a projected income based on a number subscribers. I do not know if this figure was reached during the first year of its life. What will happen is a review of the present numbers and the initial re-registering, any short fall will almost certainly result in a increase in fee.

Why am bothered about any increase? The principal reason is that it could be a cause some to reevaluate their commitment to flying. It could also discourage people who are considering joining our hobby as new or returning modellers.

I do recognise that our hobby is relatively cheap compared to Golf Club fees, that my wife pays. Yet there is no hassle with Golf, the retail trade is still relatively buoyant. Yet Golf no longer has the waiting lists to join clubs, nor are the young attracted as they were.

In our case it is presently about conserving the modelling movement, that is in decline.

One up is that 20 years back i was a road cyclist, in a club, we did Sunday runs (70 or so miles), booked club time at the Velodrome, the future looked bleak. IMO (at the time) the future was at best MTB and BMX. I was unaware of the Lotus bike, that Chris Boardman would win gold at the 1992 Olympics nor that the staff at the Velodrome were both plotting and carrying out a UK cycling revolution, that has resulted in a lot of Gold Medals. At present I cannot see a similar path for us, and I did not see anything remotely possible as had happened in cycling, I am obviously Myopic about the long term.

Edited By Erfolg on 04/11/2020 13:05:46

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Barrie Lever on 04/11/2020 13:24:35:

Erf

You would not be my choice of buddy to be stuck in the desert with or marooned at sea with !! Optimism does not flow from your posts !!

B.

Lol.

Let me try cheer you up a bit Barry, we lost no members over the £9 at our club, numbers went up, life goes on.

[cymaz]

Posted by john stones 1 on 04/11/2020 13:34:44:

Posted by Barrie Lever on 04/11/2020 13:24:35:

Erf

You would not be my choice of buddy to be stuck in the desert with or marooned at sea with !! Optimism does not flow from your posts !!

B.

Lol.

Let me try cheer you up a bit Barry, we lost no members over the £9 at our club, numbers went up, life goes on.

Same at our club, I’d swear if it wasn’t for covid there would be 4/5 extra members. We’ve had to suspend new membership at the moment. The introduction of limited flying times and slots has meant extra pressure on available time

[Erfolg]

I am suggesting that there could be adverse consequences from not paying the registration fee. Any reduction to the income of the CAA will not be welcome.

Increasing membership to both the hobby and the BMFA has to be welcomed. Are these one offs, or due to some fundamental, that could be repeated.

In my case I would be more interested on leaving a desert or reaching land, alive and safely than social aspects. But hey, there you go.

[philip pember]

i got the E mail from CAA to renew my registration which i did, suprised it was still £9 to be honest, what i don`t understand is why are they changing registration No`s next year, i have kept mine untill i renew next November2021, once registered surly it would keep costs down to stay with that No like with car registrations.just a thought.don`t think £9 should cause anybody to give up hobby, it might be used as excuse to leave but £9 come on.

[Erfolg]

I agree Philip, once you commit to pay £9, nothing material changes. Likewise, for £9 why with hold payment because you are unable to fly, be work load, illness or the restrictions of Covid. As I wrote I will keep on paying. When a price increase occurs, as it will, be it next year, or 10 years from now, there will be a reason given. It could be the effect of inflation, the existing charge at the time not reflecting the costs of operation.

On that basis my argument is why not pay, do not provide an excuse down the line.

IMO this system is with us for some time.

My main concern now is the transducers (or what ever they are) and the various implications that might flow from them.

That is why I believe the BMFA has to keep on working for the best out come they can get.

I do not kid myself that what ever is arrived at, may impact on the future of the hobby, hopefully not. To achieve the best outcome, the BMFA needs to keep focussed on what could be the most important requirements to us and the hobby.

[MattyB]

Posted by philip pember on 04/11/2020 19:32:28:

i got the E mail from CAA to renew my registration which i did, suprised it was still £9 to be honest, what i don`t understand is why are they changing registration No`s next year, i have kept mine untill i renew next November2021, once registered surly it would keep costs down to stay with that.

The change is so that all states currently in the EU have the same, universal number format for Op IDs. Whilst the UK will not be part of EASA next year all current EU law will be incorporated into UK law before we leave to prevent a hole in the statute book. Since the registration requirements became law last year (with a date to be implemented of in late 2020) we are still moving to the universal format. It does make sense - without this model flying in any other EU country as a guest could be problematic.

[Cuban8]

This is not about money or the additional cost to us to satisfy the requirements of registration IMHO - but how worthwhile and effective the registration system (at least in its present guise) is seen to be as time and developments go on.

A similar issue that we all have to endure if you drive a car, is the increasing cost of keeping a vehicle on the road due to road tax hikes and changes to the MOT etc. Unless one is coming to the end of their driving through old age or illness, I doubt that there are many who will get rid of their cars solely because of the rises in costs of ownership. We shrug our shoulders, grumble, pay up and carry on. We've all paid for road tax and MOTs, we're used to them and can see, reluctantly perhaps for some , why they exist.

Give it time, five years or ten years or whatever, and I'm certain that this whole drone/model registration malarkey as it affects the hobbyist will be found out and shelved.

In the mean time, we've more than enough to worry about, but let's not ignore what's being done to our hobby by the regulators and stay on our guard.

 

 

Edited By Cuban8 on 05/11/2020 09:42:13

[Erfolg]

I had thought a little about cost and the impact it has on individuals, in a relatively casual way. Going shopping today (as I do the cooking) I was reminded of an observation my mother made when i used to take her for her shopping, that some older people could be seen to count almost the pennies that they were spending.

Today i saw a couple who obviously were doing pretty much the same. Those who do not presently have to do such a thing are lucky

This has made me stop and think, that not all pensioners have a private pension, and are often totally dependent on the state pension. One of daughters is furloughed and the current situation has had an impact on her in many ways. Yes, I do thank my lucky stars.

Just because many modellers are able to afford or are prepared to spend a small fortune on large petrol or perhaps a jet, not all can afford such levels of expenditure. Of course many of us have no interest such models. But there is a limit as to how much I would spend on a hobby, although not there yet, and hope never to be there.

In a way I do gravitate to wanting to keep both bureaucratic and financial requirements low to attract new members into our hobby. From this standpoint I am keen that everybody does not see BMFA membership fee as an obstacle, and particularly want to keep the CAA requirements to the minimum in both testing and charges etc.

Although I have said many times that the BMFA should be seen as more than an insurance broker, I have increasingly seen this aspect as fundamental to model flying. When encouraging newcomers into the BMFA I do see it as a major selling point. All the other things that I see as the major benefits, are probably lost and unappreciated when selling the BMFA.

I am not keen on stopping the magazine on the ground of cost, I do read it though, I have also railed about blow, by blow, accounts of various competitions. Other than those with niche interests, no one else can bothered to put pen to paper. As contributors do not get paid, as a read it is not bad, when all is done from contributors good will. I can envisage that it will gravitate on line, which could help in the BMFA having up-todate Email addresses, rather than those from 10 years back, or non at all. As ell as reducing cost.

[SR 71]

I feel ok about all the rules and regulations now, i quit the hobby and im doing something else, much happier as a result

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

You're certainly entitled to use your own time as you see fit but to be honest, the changes so far have cost me £9 and a few minutes of my time - mostly in printing off a few sticky labels!

In terms of flying my models with their labels attached - it's had zero effect whatsoever!

Yes, I have a few concerns over future changes but I'm pretty confident that the BMFA et al are busy negotiating to mitigate many of their effects.

[Cuban8]

Posted by Martin Harris on 06/11/2020 00:23:07:

You're certainly entitled to use your own time as you see fit but to be honest, the changes so far have cost me £9 and a few minutes of my time - mostly in printing off a few sticky labels!

In terms of flying my models with their labels attached - it's had zero effect whatsoever!

Yes, I have a few concerns over future changes but I'm pretty confident that the BMFA et al are busy negotiating to mitigate many of their effects.

Exactly - a storm in a teacup if ever their was one. As with storms in nature, this one will eventually blow itself out.