Is the hobby dying/dead

Clarence Ragland · January 24, 2021

The Academy of Model Aeronuatics has lost 32 million dollars since 2004 - just on their magazine. I don't know how much money they have lost altogether.

Clarence,

I guess in a way I have given up a little bit on the survival of aeromodelling. However, I have sent your material to the president of MAAC.

I’ve been with MAAC now for forty years. I’m not sure that the hobby can be saved. The world is different today than it was in the 30’s when AMA was formed and in 49 when MAAC was formed. Today's generation are not exposed to aircraft the way that the traditional modeler, you and I (even though I don’t fly models) were. We watched movies with all the different types of airplanes flying in the skies, today it’s about the technology, the cockpit, on the outside they all look the same with different paint jobs. You can’t walk down the street by the local park and see model airplanes flying, you need to get into a car, loaded with your stuff and drive half an hour or more to the nearest flying site.

MAAC lost over 250 members at the end of 2018, another 250+ this year and we’re looking at another 250 in 2020. I did a count in July of the members 10,000 at the time and found that 75% of those members were over the age of 50. Not a good outlook for the future with 2500 people under the age of 50 coming along behind the traditional long-term member. AMA is not faring well either, their numbers are down, and they have cut staff. Apparently, the British aeromodelling association has experienced member losses as well.

Go into any hobby store or online and have a look at what they are selling. We are in a disposable world. Today's member is here for one to five years and then they are gone.

Don’t know where it’s all going in the end.

Linda Patrick

MAAC Secretary/Treasurer

Edited By Clarence Ragland on 24/01/2021 18:38:52

Tim Flyer · January 24, 2021

I got back into the hobby about 11 years ago . My kids toys made me want to have a look again . I couldn’t believe how easily their model helicopters flew and how much fun it was . I started with indoor micro helicopters and it progressed into planes. Since I was a kid and could only afford 2 channel /control line /boats, the whole model world has moved on a massive amount. I used to have a licence many years ago and I would say regulations haven’t got any more arduous.

The internet has made modelling and in fact all hobbies much much more accessible. Yes there might not be a local shop with someone to advise you but the internet is full of advice videos etc and it’s easy to find clubs and associations... that’s what I did ...

Viv Letherby · January 24, 2021

No more licences but a whole new raft of certifications to wade through!

Andy Symons - BMFA · January 24, 2021

Posted by Viv Letherby on 24/01/2021 18:57:52:

No more licences but a whole new raft of certifications to wade through!

No there isnt. There's 1 online multiple choice test that's free and gives you the correct answers at the end so you can get them right onyour next attempt if you fail.

Also if you are just starting out and being taught using a buddy lead you dont even need to pass that until you are ready to come off the lead.

Clarence Ragland · January 24, 2021

AMA industry incentive program

Locally, I will offer to give hobby shop or industry customers a free 30 minute RC flying test drive, using my LT-40 trainer

Is that something your local hobby shop is doing or would like to do?

GONZO · January 24, 2021

What an interesting read. I'll agree that the hobby has been dying/dead for some of the time I've been in it - 65 years approx. From my viewpoint it's only the last 20 to 30 years that I've been aware of such an attitude. From a free and easy activity with little to no restrictions it has now changed to one with a 238 page document (CAP722) governing ones activities. This, no matter what some may think and say, is a 'put off'. But, on the other side of the coin is the cheapness and almost certain success of current equipment. The main fly in the ointment at the moment and possibly going forward is not CAA regulation, remote ID, flying sites, cost of models, training or clubs, etc. IMO it is the new never ending and indeterminate policy of 'lockdown' along with the significant and substantial financial/economic consequences that are yet to fully manifest themselves.. We're now into the second year of what was 'just 3 weeks to flatten the curve' with as far as I can see no end in sight of more and more successive and longer lockdowns. The frustration factor when some one has invested time and money to engage in an activity just to have it removed at short notice for an indeterminate time will soon have people give up and leave or never start. Add to this the fact that many in the future will be struggling to feed themselves and pay the bills with no time or money to use in what is a discretionary activity. Given a sufficient gap in people(new and existing) taking part in the hobby it is not difficult to see that at a local level club membership could easily fall below critical mass and clubs become non viable. this situation could easily take a downward spiral locally and nationally. I myself took the decision not to re join BMFA or club until I saw the state of things after the current lockdown, which was extended whilst running. I now see the government have, by dictate, extended their ability to continue the lockdown to 17th July and I hear rumours that they want to go to September.

Stuart Z · January 24, 2021

Variou viewpoints coming through and understandable frustrations. As I see it, if we stand back and don’t support clubs etc leases might not get renewed and the when lockdown lifts there’ll be no club to go to. I belong to 3 clubs a mix of model flying and archery so it is quite a commitment but I’d rather try to help my clubs stay solvent.

Just my view.

S

Jan Luethje · January 24, 2021

Very interesting discussion, gents, some input from „across the channel”: Situation is quite similar here, in my club and with my 53 years, I do belong to the youngsters. And of about 70 members, there are probably just four or five including me who are still bashing balsa, the rest is flying ARTF’s.

So what to do? How to attract the kids to the hobby again? Honestly, I don’t see a chance, but:

I think, it could be worth a try to focus on people, who are a bit older, let’s say 35 and above. Quite a few of them seem to be tired of the cheap benefit that online games, etc. offer. The instant-gratification-thing is starting to look pale and shabby, especially now, after about 12 months of Corona, full of incredibly boring “skype parties”, zoom meetings, etc. People do start to understand, that virtual reality will never ever be a replacement for real adventures and encounters - and for things, you do actually make by yourself.

May be, these older novices will not embrace to scratch-build a Spitfire. May be, they’d rather prefer to spend time and money on a solar power-driven high tech-glider, that offers a calm sort of recreational experience. But I do feel, that our hobby could offer something to them. And if so, they might even trigger their kids …

Roger Jones 3 · January 25, 2021

Posted by leccyflyer on 24/01/2021 09:50:11:

The chance of an impulse buy of a flying model that will actually fly is much higher these days than previously. The traditional (as in past 30 years way) of having to go to a model shop, buy a kit, an engine, a set of radio gear. spend a couple of months building the kit, finding a club field and learning to fly with a .40 sized trainer, with or without a buddy box. In contrast today- guy sees You Tube video of model flying, thinks -"That looks cool" - googles for models, finds an ebay listing and clicks Buy It Now and a few days later has a flyable model that he can take to his local park with a chance that he will be able to get it in the air.

Now if he's doing it properly he will have insurance, BMFA membership, CAA registration etc- for which all the information is a mouse click away - but intrinsically the ease of getting a flyable model into the air quickly is much improved over the months of building a traditional model aeroplane. The more modern trainers are stable enough and with the technological aids available such that a buddy box is not a necessity and the chances of learning outwith a club environment is massively improved by the existence of these models.

What you say is broadly true but the number of beginner questions on this and other toy plane forums belies it somewhat.

I started in about 1957 with a 10 inch span KK Cutie 'push together' chuck glider, followed by a 17 inch KK Gremlin stick 'push together' rubber model, almost all of their three and sixpence scale rubber models and some Veron ones too, Then the usual KK Cub, Invader, and Chief gliders, plus Jetex stuff including their heli. Also a scale Crusader (Jetex Jetmaster) boat from a Model Boat plan.

Several competition level Wakefields..

First power model was a KK Ranger , followed by a Veron Cardinal and a Debutante from an APS plan,

Radio from single channel , though F&M 'Matator/Midas' 10 channel 'Multi' to proportional with a DeeBee Quadruplex (I purchased it new in 1963), Sampey 404, Bonner Digimite, all from Henry J Nicholl's '308 Holloway Road' who was the official importer of those three proportionals.

I've done it all. And never any instruction.

Today the near total concentration on r/c and the availability of ARTFs, and particularly foamies, means than come to 'aerodynamics', or a problem, or a crash, many flyers are totally clueless. So it can be HARDER for them,.

Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 08:26:44

Andy Symons - BMFA · January 25, 2021

Posted by GONZO on 24/01/2021 22:06:59:

From a free and easy activity with little to no restrictions it has now changed to one with a 238 page document (CAP722) governing ones activities. This, no matter what some may think and say, is a 'put off'. But, on the other side of the coin is the cheapness and almost certain success of current equipment.

It is just this type of over exaggeration around the regulations that will put people off more than the actual regulations.

The Article 16 authorisation that the majority of BMFA members will be operating under is only 14 pages long, its formatted with a huge amount of 'white space' too. See **LINK**

The BMFA Guide to Article 16 which has quite a bit of extra explanation in is only 12 pages long. See **LINK**

and there is the quick start guide which is only 2 pages. See **LINK**

The thing is, apart from the minor irritation of having to register with the CAA its mostly what we have always been doing.

Let's be honest, the regulations will only put people off if we use them to put people off. We are still very lightly regulated. I received an email last week from a potential new model flyer who had been speaking to someone who had told him the regulatory burden was high, thankfully he took the extra step of getting in touch to find out more, once advised of the real situation he is now raring to go, has already contacted a club and arranged some trial flights once Covid regulations permit.

If everyone directed energy to giving just one new person some model flying experience every year our sport would grow massively, and giving experience flights is one of the most rewarding aspects of what we do too, it's win win!!

Brian Cooper · January 25, 2021

Bring back the Sleek Streak.

That simple, slot-together, rubber powered, pocket money model did a fabulous job of getting kids interested in model flying.

They could be ready to fly in under a minute, and they all flew really well. . Instant success and powerful fuel for a child's imagination. . Plus, they allowed us to experiment and learn about trimming an aeroplane before aspiring to bigger and more sophisticated models.

David Holland 2 · January 25, 2021

Oh, Andy, please don’t ruin a good whinge thread by using rational argument and, heaven forbid, actual facts.

Matt Carlton · January 25, 2021

The biggest problem I have had with trying to encourage the younger generation to get involved is that it takes more effort than sitting in front of an Xbox. As they are so immersed in virtual life, they don't see any difference between the real and the simulated. So, in their eyes, why bother buying and risking a model when they can fly a real plane from the comfort of their gaming chair.

Plus, the quest for instant gratification means that the prospect of not being proficient right off the bat is anathema to them.

The licensing and CAA argument is a red herring. It's very simple, very easy and no barrier whatsoever. Yes, the regulations might be wordy, as all of them are, but we don't need to know the nitty gritty any more than we need to understand the minutae of the road traffic act in order to drive.

Clarence Ragland · January 25, 2021

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 25/01/2021 09:21:03:

Posted by GONZO on 24/01/2021 22:06:59:

From a free and easy activity with little to no restrictions it has now changed to one with a 238 page document (CAP722) governing ones activities. This, no matter what some may think and say, is a 'put off'. But, on the other side of the coin is the cheapness and almost certain success of current equipment.

It is just this type of over exaggeration around the regulations that will put people off more than the actual regulations.

The Article 16 authorisation that the majority of BMFA members will be operating under is only 14 pages long, its formatted with a huge amount of 'white space' too. See **LINK**

The BMFA Guide to Article 16 which has quite a bit of extra explanation in is only 12 pages long. See **LINK**

and there is the quick start guide which is only 2 pages. See **LINK**

The thing is, apart from the minor irritation of having to register with the CAA its mostly what we have always been doing.

Let's be honest, the regulations will only put people off if we use them to put people off. We are still very lightly regulated. I received an email last week from a potential new model flyer who had been speaking to someone who had told him the regulatory burden was high, thankfully he took the extra step of getting in touch to find out more, once advised of the real situation he is now raring to go, has already contacted a club and arranged some trial flights once Covid regulations permit.

If everyone directed energy to giving just one new person some model flying experience every year our sport would grow massively, and giving experience flights is one of the most rewarding aspects of what we do too, it's win win!!

One has to wonder why hasn't everyone brought in one new person? I mean, most people have friends, relatives and people they may meet socially. Just bring up your hobby/sport to as many people as you can. At least you would be planting seeds about the hobby. You'd be surprised at just how many people may be or actually are interested and/or curious, but didn't know who to ask or just a bit afraid of getting into the hobby, but just needed a little push.

Lima Hotel Foxtrot · January 25, 2021

Posted by Matt Carlton on 25/01/2021 09:44:11:

The biggest problem I have had with trying to encourage the younger generation to get involved is that it takes more effort than sitting in front of an Xbox. As they are so immersed in virtual life, they don't see any difference between the real and the simulated. So, in their eyes, why bother buying and risking a model when they can fly a real plane from the comfort of their gaming chair.

Plus, the quest for instant gratification means that the prospect of not being proficient right off the bat is anathema to them.

Anybody who tars all games and all gamers with the same brush should try playing some of them and employing a bit of unbiased critical appraisal. Yes, some are simplistic but there are a lot where the learning curve is incredibly steep.

Instant gratification? Nope. Not always. Some of these games are savage.

I've been playing (a.k.a. mostly getting killed by 14 year olds a lot) Fortnite, and the level of situational awareness, rapidness of control moves, ability to hit the right switch at the right time, mixed button presses, operating mouse and keyboard at the same time and ability to set up so the game runs well is almost exactly like... (drum roll) getting a model plane to fly successfully.

Not all games are the same, in the way a Junior 60 plan is not the same as a Wot 4 Foam-E: Different approach, different methods to get a similar result, same level of satisfaction and enjoyment.

The real difference beween when most of us started and now is that now kids will be communicating with each other as they play, they will watch youtube videos and visit forums for inspiration, hints, tips and discussion... which is almost exactly like... (drum roll) what all of you are doing right now!

It's one of the reasons Flite Test have been so successful. Low cost, easy to put together, good flying planes from the off, a massive internet support base, lots of youtube inspiration, all presented with a degree of unbridled enthusiasm and a "just go for it" spirit which you rarely see in this country and is certainly lacking on this forum.

Why would a kid (or their parent) want to stand in a field with some of the misery guts you get on here and dip their toe unless they already have an interest in aviation?

The issue is not the lack of models or equipment, both of which are freely available, at (generally) decent quality, nor is it the lack of model shops or flying clubs, it is the attitude of modellers. If you want youngsters to give this a go, stop putting them off by being so proscriptive about what is "good and proper" and what is "not how I did it in my day." Modellers, your day has gone, the world has moved on and you may not like it but you can't do anything about it so stop being intellectually lazy and try engaging on their level. You may even get a new club member or two.

Edited By Lima Hotel Foxtrot on 25/01/2021 10:23:14

Cuban8 · January 25, 2021

Posted by Brian Cooper on 25/01/2021 09:30:14:

Bring back the Sleek Streak.

That simple, slot-together, rubber powered, pocket money model did a fabulous job of getting kids interested in model flying.

They could be ready to fly in under a minute, and they all flew really well. . Instant success and powerful fuel for a child's imagination. . Plus, they allowed us to experiment and learn about trimming an aeroplane before aspiring to bigger and more sophisticated models.

Absolutely right. Those North Pacific Sleek Streak and Skeeter models were truly excellent and providing that you didn't fly them in a howling gale and followed the instructions they always went well. I remember the choice was 1/3d for the smaller model and a whole week's pocket money of half a crown (2/6d) for the bigger one, so quite an investment at the time. BTW that's about 7p and 12 1/2p in decimal. A US Ebay seller is doing new old stock for around £25 now, I've just seen!

The 'jumping through hoops' thing is really just viewed as a rubber stamp exercise by most people, they read and act upon what they need to do and that's it. I'm unaware of anyone in either of my two clubs 'throwing the towel in' because of a bit of extra admin. if anyone thinks that any normal person is going to take 238 pages of CAP 722 to bed with them as reading matter for the sake if it......they're crazy!

LHF above is right about gaming - the level of complexity of what my 7 years old grandson plays is well beyond me. Same type of commitment to achieving a goal, but just totally different from building from balsa and having a 'game over' moment after trying to fly it. We'll do OK as a hobby, but it'll not be what we've grown up with over the last half century.

Edited By Cuban8 on 25/01/2021 10:28:18

Roger Jones 3 · January 25, 2021

That the BMFA sees fit to produce these 'guides' is evidence of what complicated nonsense it all is. The BMFA is only preaching to the already converted (and I speak as a BMFA member of 50 plus years standing, as a qualified 'full size' flyer for 44 years, and as a CAA model flying 'ticket' holder since day one),

But the CAA toy plane rules won't catch most of those who don't bother with any of it.

As in "I intend to carelessly or deliberately collide with an approaching airliner. I will make sure my CAA operator number is on my toy plane"

Whinge? No chance, I'm thoroughly enjoying all the 'virtue signalling'.

Will 'Aeromodelling' continue? The overwhelming presence of ARTFs mean most flyers don't do any.

Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 10:32:31

Andy Symons - BMFA · January 25, 2021

Posted by Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 10:27:11:

That the BMFA sees fit to produce these 'guides' is evidence of what complicated nonsense it all is. The BMFA is only preaching to the already converted (and I speak as a BMFA member of 50 plus years standing and as a qualified 'full size' flyer for 44 years).

Actually it's evidence that despite some people being determined to convince people that it is complicated it really isn't, and we wouldn't have to put so much effort into producing guides if some people weren't so determined to try and overcomplicate what in reality is quite simple.

Andy Symons - BMFA · January 25, 2021

Posted by David Holland 2 on 25/01/2021 09:30:56:

Oh, Andy, please don’t ruin a good whinge thread by using rational argument and, heaven forbid, actual facts.

Apologies, I will turn of my rationality chip.

Stuphedd · January 25, 2021

The young girl next door , she is 3, is facinated with my planes, so for Christmas I got her a foamy glider from the Works , It arrives it my garden nown and again !

Catch 'em whilst they are still curious !!

cheers

Cuban8 · January 25, 2021

Of course it's "complicated nonsense" to most of us that needs to go through its cycle, but we are where we are and we really can't moan our way back to how it was. I shudder to think where we'd be if we were left in the clutches of the regulators without the efforts of the BMFA and its officers to steady things down. The quick start guide is great, all you need to know in a minute of your time - read it, follow it and carry on as before!

Edited By Cuban8 on 25/01/2021 10:42:09

Geoff S · January 25, 2021

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 25/01/2021 09:21:03:

Posted by GONZO on 24/01/2021 22:06:59:

From a free and easy activity with little to no restrictions it has now changed to one with a 238 page document (CAP722) governing ones activities. This, no matter what some may think and say, is a 'put off'. But, on the other side of the coin is the cheapness and almost certain success of current equipment.

It is just this type of over exaggeration around the regulations that will put people off more than the actual regulations.

The Article 16 authorisation that the majority of BMFA members will be operating under is only 14 pages long, its formatted with a huge amount of 'white space' too. See **LINK**

The BMFA Guide to Article 16 which has quite a bit of extra explanation in is only 12 pages long. See **LINK**

and there is the quick start guide which is only 2 pages. See **LINK**

The thing is, apart from the minor irritation of having to register with the CAA its mostly what we have always been doing.

Let's be honest, the regulations will only put people off if we use them to put people off. We are still very lightly regulated. I received an email last week from a potential new model flyer who had been speaking to someone who had told him the regulatory burden was high, thankfully he took the extra step of getting in touch to find out more, once advised of the real situation he is now raring to go, has already contacted a club and arranged some trial flights once Covid regulations permit.

If everyone directed energy to giving just one new person some model flying experience every year our sport would grow massively, and giving experience flights is one of the most rewarding aspects of what we do too, it's win win!!

Agree 100%, Andy. I've known you since the days you organised the fly-ins at Castle Howard and you've certainly done your share to support the hobby.

The only real downside is the need to register with the CAA and pay £9 for the privilege - and that's happened because of new developments in aeromodelling (primarily quads and the use of cameras/FPV etc) which we've had to accommodate and accept.

Geoff

Clarence Ragland · January 25, 2021

Model Aviation - May 2015 - Page 160-161 Teaching the teachers

Here's what I had in mind a few years ago. The school that I was working with had an aeromodelling program where the kids had to design and build RC airplanes. There were several classes involved and the kids were very enthusiastic. They had several simulators and tons of computers. I trained teachers how to fly and teach, which they did on simulators, all year around and outside during flying season. Unfortunately, both teachers found employment else where. I don't know if the program is still in progress or not.

Edited By Clarence Ragland on 25/01/2021 10:58:09

Phil McCavity · January 25, 2021

Posted by Lima Hotel Foxtrot on 25/01/2021 10:09:57: