Is the hobby dying/dead

[Stuart C]

Michael, my Sugden was about 10 years earlier. I'm now an ancient fogie. I don't know how the crankcase casting was sourced; I can't recall any saucepans being melted down ( except by the kitchen staff! ).

[Peter Miller]

Posted by Barrie Lever on 24/06/2020 19:38:40:

Posted by Peter Miller on 24/06/2020 18:24:53:

I worked in an upper school back in the 80s and 90s.

One September we held a major exhibition about hobbies etc and we had all sorts of organisations with stands from needle work and radio hams etc.

Naturally I was asked to put on a stand about model aircraft.

I had three long tables with a whole range of models.I had a video of Old Warden running and I had a big stack of free magazines.

300 13 year old children came through. Each had a note pad for answers to questions etc.

I had two very simple questions,No one stood to watch the video and NOT one magazine was taken.

I make no comment

 

Edited By Peter Miller on 24/06/2020 18:26:29

Peter

I hold you in high regard for your enthusiasm and stream of real designs, but to not be able to engage with at least a few youngsters out of 300 you must have pitched wrong.

I guarantee even today some 30 years further on that I would get kids to stop and look at a stand of model aircraft.

B.

Possibly. And yet I got one youngster who was about to leave with a total lack of interest in anything completely involved in buiding a model engine while the rest of the staff just could not believe that he had become so inolved in the project.

And this was considering that his final project had been a toy box. which consisted of 6 pieces of chipboard.

I would also add that back in the late 70s I ran adult education classes in Aeromodelling which were quite popular in my local upper school.  The article describing that was in Aeromodeller back in about 1974 and was featured on Anglia Television.

Edited By Peter Miller on 24/06/2020 21:12:01

[Ray Wood 4]

Hi All,

The simple answer to the original question is "No"

Happy days 😀

[Dwain Dibley.]

Posted by Ray Wood 4 on 24/06/2020 21:59:14:

Hi All,

The simple answer to the original question is "No"

Happy days 😀

I agree......It's what you make it. Push yourself and get something done, It's all out there to do Chums.......

D.D.

[Michael Kulagin]

Stuart C; If my memory serves me right, the deal from the publication of the time was, for a fee you got the engineering drawing of the engine, fully dimensioned with the materials listed. For 'extra' you also got a crankcase casting. It wasn't too complicated but I struggled to get the lugs cast fully until small vents were created in the sand moulds. Smelting the aluminium used to create a stink of burnt milk, I couldn't be bothered to wash the bottle tops to get rid of the milk remains.

[Simon Burch 1]

I don't think that the hobby is dying, but it's certainly undergoing fundamental change - and not all of it is bad. I agree with previous comments that the impact of CAA legislation has been surprisingly small; however, the high profile of last year's drone incidents has led to widespread bans on model flying in public places. In our area, no models of any kind may be flown in public parks. To me, this is outrageous, but in the present risk-averse climate there is little that can be done.

To fly their newly purchased drones or EP RTFs, people expressed interest in joining our club. However, our rules, which permitted 'solo' flying by BMFA A Certificate holders only, put them off because they couldn't fly without a qualified person to supervise. In effect, we were discouraging participation in model flying.

To my mind, the A-Certificate rule was essential in the days when we had to learn on a 40-sized I/C trainer, but now people can learn the basics on a PC simulator and a lightweight EP foam model. Most drones more-or-less fly themselves, and many models have stability augmentation or autopilots. Lightweight EP foam models are cheap, incredibly crash-resistant, and are unlikely to cause harm or damage if they crash.

Consequently, we've amended our rules, and introduced some other measures, to address this. So far we have:

Carried out a risk assessment and amended the club rules to permit non-BMFA A Cert holders to fly models below 250g without supervision. An A Cert holder must see that they can control the model and understand its limitations before 'solo' flying is permitted.

Welcomed drone flyers and encouraged them to join.

Encouraged the use of RC flight simulators and EP foam models to learn the basics.

Used social media to arrange impromptu meetings, share advice etc.

Introduced people to 'traditional' model flying by arranging club event that involve simple and cheap builds eg Cloud Tramp, chuck gliders etc.

Used events to engage with the public (pre C-19 of course).

Built a 'traditional' club trainer for those who wish to progress their skills.

Time will tell how successful these measures are, but so far the signs are encouraging and we've seen a healthy rise in membership - including under 50s - and a substantial increase in flying activity. We've even seen drone flyers building traditional models. Of course, C-19 has helped but the trend was already apparent.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Simon Burch 1 on 25/06/2020 08:55:29:

I don't think that the hobby is dying, but it's certainly undergoing fundamental change - and not all of it is bad. I agree with previous comments that the impact of CAA legislation has been surprisingly small; however, the high profile of last year's drone incidents has led to widespread bans on model flying in public places. In our area, no models of any kind may be flown in public parks. To me, this is outrageous, but in the present risk-averse climate there is little that can be done.

To fly their newly purchased drones or EP RTFs, people expressed interest in joining our club. However, our rules, which permitted 'solo' flying by BMFA A Certificate holders only, put them off because they couldn't fly without a qualified person to supervise. In effect, we were discouraging participation in model flying.

To my mind, the A-Certificate rule was essential in the days when we had to learn on a 40-sized I/C trainer, but now people can learn the basics on a PC simulator and a lightweight EP foam model. Most drones more-or-less fly themselves, and many models have stability augmentation or autopilots. Lightweight EP foam models are cheap, incredibly crash-resistant, and are unlikely to cause harm or damage if they crash.

Consequently, we've amended our rules, and introduced some other measures, to address this. So far we have:

Carried out a risk assessment and amended the club rules to permit non-BMFA A Cert holders to fly models below 250g without supervision. An A Cert holder must see that they can control the model and understand its limitations before 'solo' flying is permitted.

Welcomed drone flyers and encouraged them to join.

Encouraged the use of RC flight simulators and EP foam models to learn the basics.

Used social media to arrange impromptu meetings, share advice etc.

Introduced people to 'traditional' model flying by arranging club event that involve simple and cheap builds eg Cloud Tramp, chuck gliders etc.

Used events to engage with the public (pre C-19 of course).

Built a 'traditional' club trainer for those who wish to progress their skills.

Time will tell how successful these measures are, but so far the signs are encouraging and we've seen a healthy rise in membership - including under 50s - and a substantial increase in flying activity. We've even seen drone flyers building traditional models. Of course, C-19 has helped but the trend was already apparent.

[Cuban8]

Posted by Simon Burch 1 on 25/06/2020 08:55:29:

I don't think that the hobby is dying, but it's certainly undergoing fundamental change - and not all of it is bad. I agree with previous comments that the impact of CAA legislation has been surprisingly small; however, the high profile of last year's drone incidents has led to widespread bans on model flying in public places. In our area, no models of any kind may be flown in public parks. To me, this is outrageous, but in the present risk-averse climate there is little that can be done.

To fly their newly purchased drones or EP RTFs, people expressed interest in joining our club. However, our rules, which permitted 'solo' flying by BMFA A Certificate holders only, put them off because they couldn't fly without a qualified person to supervise. In effect, we were discouraging participation in model flying.

To my mind, the A-Certificate rule was essential in the days when we had to learn on a 40-sized I/C trainer, but now people can learn the basics on a PC simulator and a lightweight EP foam model. Most drones more-or-less fly themselves, and many models have stability augmentation or autopilots. Lightweight EP foam models are cheap, incredibly crash-resistant, and are unlikely to cause harm or damage if they crash.

Consequently, we've amended our rules, and introduced some other measures, to address this. So far we have:

Carried out a risk assessment and amended the club rules to permit non-BMFA A Cert holders to fly models below 250g without supervision. An A Cert holder must see that they can control the model and understand its limitations before 'solo' flying is permitted.

Welcomed drone flyers and encouraged them to join.

Encouraged the use of RC flight simulators and EP foam models to learn the basics.

Used social media to arrange impromptu meetings, share advice etc.

Introduced people to 'traditional' model flying by arranging club event that involve simple and cheap builds eg Cloud Tramp, chuck gliders etc.

Used events to engage with the public (pre C-19 of course).

Built a 'traditional' club trainer for those who wish to progress their skills.

Time will tell how successful these measures are, but so far the signs are encouraging and we've seen a healthy rise in membership - including under 50s - and a substantial increase in flying activity. We've even seen drone flyers building traditional models. Of course, C-19 has helped but the trend was already apparent.

Simon, I applaud you and your club's efforts - sounds like that you've gone about things in a well thought out and considered way and obviously have some committed members to organise and carry out what you're trying to achieve.

Having been involved in a small way with club organisation for quite some time, I know only too well how challenging these projects can be to get going, and often more importantly, keeping them running and relevant whilst relying on the availability, good will and enthusiasm of volunteers. The only comment I'll make is that because this type of initiative is club driven as a recruiting tool, rather than as a response to a large demand from potential members finding their way to you, they do have a weak link.

I've known other similar & very good schemes gradually fade away over time, usually because it's difficult to get others to do their fair share of the work (not just the flying bit) and to take over as new blood when the original people wish to move on or wish to spend more time doing their own thing etc. Not limited to our hobby of course, many clubs & organisations have the same issue. Anyway, good luck - at least you're having a go.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

There have always been lads/lasses and clubs like Simon, there always will be, thankfully, pool your ideas and try new stuff, encourage others to speak up with their ideas, not all ideas work. But sat feeling sorry for ourselves, gets us nowhere.

[SR 71]

Im a modeller of 70 years flown everything from gliders to twin turbine jets and scratch build most of my models, the club i belonged to in Cyprus had just the one rule, common sense.

I have now returned to this country and joined a club but find i cannot fly because i dont have a A certificate, and also that i cannot fly my favourite model, the only one i brought back with me, because i have to have a B certificate to fly it as it weighs just over 7,5 kg

Im now looking for a new hobby

[Alan Gorham_]

Posted by SR 71 on 25/06/2020 10:46:32:

Im a modeller of 70 years flown everything from gliders to twin turbine jets and scratch build most of my models, the club i belonged to in Cyprus had just the one rule, common sense.

I have now returned to this country and joined a club but find i cannot fly because i dont have a A certificate, and also that i cannot fly my favourite model, the only one i brought back with me, because i have to have a B certificate to fly it as it weighs just over 7,5 kg

Im now looking for a new hobby

But if you have the ability to fly such models then you have the ability to take the B test with them problem solved....

[Richard Clark 2]

Posted by SR 71 on 25/06/2020 10:46:32:

Im a modeller of 70 years flown everything from gliders to twin turbine jets and scratch build most of my models, the club i belonged to in Cyprus had just the one rule, common sense.

I have now returned to this country and joined a club but find i cannot fly because i dont have a A certificate, and also that i cannot fly my favourite model, the only one i brought back with me, because i have to have a B certificate to fly it as it weighs just over 7,5 kg

Im now looking for a new hobby

Common sense is the only rule needed,

I'm presumably a little younger than you having only managed about 60 years of model flying. Like you I've done it all with the exception of turbines as they not allowed at the only site I can now be bothered to go to. I'm not going to travel 30, 40 miles or so and back just to play with a toy plane whatever it's powered by.

Clubs. Despite the BMFA never intending the 'A' certificate to be any kind of 'licence' AND REPEATEDLY SAYING SO some officious clubs are using it as such. It's unlikely to get them new members.

[Cuban8]

SR71......as a clearly highly experienced modeller and flyer of many years standing, to pack your hobby up after all the investment in time, money, learning etc that you've put in for the sake of a couple of bits of paper, I find difficult to understand. We see in the BMFA mag pictures of kids after passing the A and B so it's not difficult, but requires a bit of book work to pass the questions - not the end of the world - a week of reading all the bumf and learning a few facts and figures to repeat parrot fashioned is the most onerous part. Why do you object, I wonder,?

As a fixed wing examiner myself of some twenty years standing, I have to say that the Achievement Scheme has, I feel, moved away from its original intent and I agree that either through accident or design, is morphing into a licencing system pushed on by officialdom under the hand of the CAA, government departments and others. It'll only get worse, I fear.  Those that relish such bureaucracy will welcome it and attempt to weave it into their clubs as a means of exerting control over and above what is really required.

Thankfully, most will take what they feel is sensible and proportionate and carry on as normal. I think it's sensible to require an 'A' for unsupervised solo flight in most club environments, but whether it goes much further than that (other than what is strictly required by the law) will often run us into trouble by causing resentment and rancour between members and committees.

 

 

Edited By Cuban8 on 25/06/2020 12:45:57

[Lindsay Todd]

SR71, if i am correct in assuming the club you refer to of which i am also a member then perhaps i should add that the A and B certificate stipulations are part of a legal agreement by the council and certainly not 'officious' committee, in fact quite the opposite. The site is a public space and we need to act accordingly I'm afraid and comply with legal stipulations to retain its use. Sometimes things are not perfect but keeping the site active is better than losing it. As Cuban 8 and others state the A and B are not difficult.

Is the hobby dead - no just changing as it always does

Linds

[Simon Burch 1]

Posted by SR 71 on 25/06/2020 10:46:32:

Im a modeller of 70 years flown everything from gliders to twin turbine jets and scratch build most of my models, the club i belonged to in Cyprus had just the one rule, common sense.

I have now returned to this country and joined a club but find i cannot fly because i dont have a A certificate, and also that i cannot fly my favourite model, the only one i brought back with me, because i have to have a B certificate to fly it as it weighs just over 7,5 kg

Im now looking for a new hobby

Hi SR71

I sympathise with your situation; I found myself in a similar one when I left the RAF and joined a civil club. Most irritatingly, my larger (1kg plus) models had no undercarriage and therefore didn't meet the test's requirements.

My own personal view is that club rules which mandate BMFA certification are certainly a factor in pushing people away from model flying. That said, at our club we need to be careful because our flying site is open to the public; we need to be sure that flyers are safe and that they understand the law....but there are other ways to do this.

Nonetheless, my suggestion would be to 'bite the bullet' and take the test if you can; the hobby is still immensely rewarding and it would benefit from the support of people with your experience. Older people sometimes get a bad press, but in my experience youngsters are happy to engage with us and they are inspired by more exciting models like the ones that you describe. Irritatingly, you won't be able to go directly for a B; you have to take an A first. I don't know why this should be. As pointed out earlier, the tests aren't that difficult for an experienced flyer.

[Richard Clark 2]

Posted by Steve J on 25/06/2020 12:51:05:

Posted by Barrie Lever on 25/06/2020 12:32:50:

If you give small time politicians a little bit of power they abuse it, like you say the 'A' cert has never been intended as a license.

The BMFA say various things on the subject. On one hand they say that

"It is important to appreciate that the scheme is not primarily about permitting or licensing. Fundamentally, the scheme is all about personal goals and challenges. It is entirely voluntary and intended to provide every RC flyer with something to aspire to and aim for, should they so wish. The scheme is not compulsory and BMFA insurance is NOT conditional on holding any of the achievements !" (Achievement Scheme Handbook)

and on the other hand they also say that

"All flying members must attain the minimum standards of flying required under the club name training scheme before receiving the BMFA ‘A’ Certificate and before being permitted to fly indirectly supervised."

"Any pilot not holding their solo qualification for the type of aircraft they are flying must not fly without the supervision of an instructor or their specially appointed deputy if the instructors are absent from the field. "

(Example constitution)

Their left hand obviously doesn't know what their right hand is doing

Do you remember all their stuff about 'child protection'? They even suggested clubs appoint a 'child protection' officer'.

Totally overlooking that all that child and vulnerable people stuff ONLY applies if working with children and/or vulnerable people is your MAIN activity. If it isn't you don' have to do anything at all.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Richard Clark 2 on 25/06/2020 13:11:56:

 

The BMFA say various things on the subject. On one hand they say that

"It is important to appreciate that the scheme is not primarily about permitting or licensing. Fundamentally, the scheme is all about personal goals and challenges. It is entirely voluntary and intended to provide every RC flyer with something to aspire to and aim for, should they so wish. The scheme is not compulsory and BMFA insurance is NOT conditional on holding any of the achievements !" (Achievement Scheme Handbook)

and on the other hand they also say that

"All flying members must attain the minimum standards of flying required under the club name training scheme before receiving the BMFA ‘A’ Certificate and before being permitted to fly indirectly supervised."

"Any pilot not holding their solo qualification for the type of aircraft they are flying must not fly without the supervision of an instructor or their specially appointed deputy if the instructors are absent from the field. "

(Example constitution)

 

In fairness, you've quoted from an example constitution which is prefaced by advice that they don't expect all of it to be appropriate to every club. As I know that many - and probably a majority - of clubs have specified the A certificate as a minimum qualification to fly unsupervised, this is surely an example of a paragraph that can be removed should it not apply.

Remember that passing an A test not only demonstrates a level of flying competence, but gives reasonable confidence that the candidate has absorbed a working knowledge of the legal and operating responsibilities necessary to fly safely and within the law. This is over and above the rather inadequate and virtually unfailable CAA test which seems more of a sop to the politicians and a tool for easing the prosecution of an unfortunate transgressor than any real test of knowledge.

We too have relaxed some of the requirements for very lightweight models at our club but I'm not aware that any beginner has found the requirement to attain a basic level of attainment onerous enough to put them off joining - in fact they seem keen to progress and the smiles when they pass are a great reward to their teachers and examiners. I'm afraid most complaints in forums such as this seem to originate from experienced flyers who find themselves needing to "prove" their competence to whippersnappers with a fraction of their experience. It's sad that we don't model ourselves more on full size where there is no "shame" involved with check flights.

Maybe the A test seems laughably easy and irrelevant to an experienced pilot. No examiner worth the name would seek to do anything other than witness a demonstration of competent flying and knowledge which is necessary for safe operation - they're not being asked to perform anything outside their normal competence and nothing about the test should be seen as demeaning to their competence and experience.

Edited By Martin Harris on 25/06/2020 14:02:21

[Michael Kulagin]

Returning to the hobby after a 10 year layoff I was amazed at the 'red tape' thats involved these days in joining a club. Waiting lists, proposer, seconder, size limits etc. I'm sure that many clubs have taken the BMFA example and imposed it as RULES. I for one am tempted to move to gliders, no clubs to join, no rules apply to Beacon Hill. Just go fly and enjoy yourself, after all that's what we all want but some seem to have lost sight of.

[Martin Dance 1]

If a couple of conversations I've had recently are indicative then no the hobby is not on its last legs. The first was with George at 4max, How's it going? 'Doing 16-17 hour days at the moment' Same question to Ian at Modelbau UK 'Very busy'.

You decide.

[Ray Wood 4]

Hi All,

Let's face it we Brits love rules 😀 if we didn't have them what would we have to moan about ?? 😂

Just join the BMFA we all need insurance 😊 oh they have rules !!

Regards Ray

Edited By Ray Wood 4 on 25/06/2020 14:49:33

Edited By Ray Wood 4 on 25/06/2020 14:50:57

[Michael Kulagin]

Barrie, If you could get in touch with your club details I would be very interested. New to this site so I don't know how to give you my contact details

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I can't speak for all clubs but in mine, every new rule is ratified at the AGM by the whole membership. I wasn't a member when the A rule was adopted and don't know what interim arrangements were made but by the time I joined, all long standing members had gained at least their As. The committee probably lead the process but it couldn't have imposed it. New members, as I stated earlier, have appeared to have seen the A as a good target to aim for with the benefit that they were then able to fly unsupervised.

I've don't recall a situation where a current experienced flyer has come along to join without a certificate but in my own case, having flown radio models with mixed success some 25 years earlier, well before the BMFA evolved out of the SMAE, I was asked to do the test before flying solo. I did do a little supervised flying, gaining familiarity with my trainer and running through the flying manouevres, and on my third visit and 5th flight I embarked on the test which I passed. I had dabbled a little with helicopter flying just before going back to fixed wing but was very much at the self-taught tail-in and sideways hovering stage, which admittedly probably assisted my progress. The point is that I passed with very little practice and with no unusual amount of skill, so the A should be easy for any competent flyer.

Could anyone explain why a good pilot should feel compelled to give up the hobby for the sake of such a simple - and free - test?

[Richard Clark 2]

Posted by Steve J on 25/06/2020 15:01:51:

Posted by Barrie Lever on 25/06/2020 14:51:01:

The BMFA sample constitution is a good starting point for a club or special interest group to form a constitution that is robust, however you are allowed to menu pick what is appropriate.

I understand. I was simply pointing out that the BMFA like to have their cake and eat it. They say different things in different documents.

I think you will find the constitution is aimed to also cover legal crap that happens within clubs, the BMFA get a couple of cases a week where someone feels agreeved at how their club is treating them and bitch to the BMFA about it.

I think that the BMFA should require certain standards of affiliated clubs when it comes to how they treat their members and clubs that do not meet these standards should be disaffiliated.

Steve,

"Disaffiliated"? You think the BMFA deliberately WANTS to lose members?

The BMFA has the common sense not to "require" anything - it's all just 'guidelines'. They know full well that if they tried to order their members about the membership would drop dramatically.

[Cuban8]

What you should remember is that a 'one size fits all' approach to regulations and rules adopted by clubs, does and will never work satisfactorily. A very small club or group say under a dozen members/flyers who know each other well and fly together regularly may well be able to function perfectly well without achievements or BMFA, or although highly undesirable, without insurance.

A much larger club of 50 or 100+ members, many of whom don't know each other that well, are unfamiliar with other people's flying standards or habits will at least have some comfort in knowing that the person who has just rocked up to field will have passed an 'A' and can be expected to fly to a basic safe standard. Go to even the most relaxed fly for fun meeting (Old Warden, for instance) and the A or B requirement, depending on what you're flying, gives everyone confidence in each other. I don't regard that as being unreasonable.

[Adrian Smith 1]

In answer to the OP, definitely NO!!