Chinese vs. The Rest

[Peter Christy]

Posted by Eric Robson on 18/12/2020 22:30:30:

Taking of cheap chat and things should be made in this country. the youth of today have no experience of the chat that was produced in this country after the war and through the 60's and 70's . A motorcycle industry that thought no body would buy Japanese and carried on producing the same old thing year after year till it was too late to change. The cars that rotted away after a couple of years and had no end of problems, Where are the British car makers now. ? even R.R. and Bentley are German owned. The British attempts to make radio gear Waltron, Swan, Skyleader. etc. all fell by the wayside . People look at these things with nostalgia but in truth they were not very good . The British were good on ideas and innovations that lead the world but were let down by inefficient working practices and high labour costs.

Prepared for the flack of being unpatriotic.

[rant /on]

As someone who was also around during those years, I can agree with much of what you say. However, the blame cannot be entirely one-sided!

Many of the problems in the much of British manufacturing industry was caused by abysmal management - something we still suffer from today, even up to government level!

Far too many companies failed to re-invest even part of their profits, preferring to pay the money out to senior management and shareholders. I have no problem with those who have invested in a business reaping the rewards, until it reaches a point where it is actually detrimental to the survival of said business!

Far too many management bonus schemes (and government contracts!) seem designed to reward failure! Why on earth anyone should be given a bonus for simply doing their job is beyond me! And don't tell me that it is to "attract talent", because the evidence clearly suggests otherwise!

Whilst its easy to blame "bolshy workers" for much of the industrial strife in the 60s and 70s, those situations would never have arisen had those workers been treated with a modicum of respect.

Its interesting to note how many car plants - notorious for industrial unrest under British ownership - became models of peace and productivity once taken over by Japanese, or even European, managements.

As far as the RC industry went, most of the British manufacturers were of the "cottage industry" variety - often one-man bands - knocking out cheap, but often surprisingly reliable kit to British customers. Even the biggest manufacturers, like Skyleader and RCS, were pretty small fry in the scale of such things, and often only managed to survive due to winning the occasional industrial or government contract. (Remember Skyleader's target drones during the Falklands War?)

Compare that to outfits like Futaba, who are a "potting shed" on the side of a mammoth industrial conglomerate, and you can understand why it was so difficult to compete! When you can't even buy the components for the price of a ready made outfit, it is time to find another job!

On the plus side, I do find it heartening that so many of our hi-tech gadgets - be it smart phones or RC gear - have British technology at their heart. Even the very popular FrSky and Jumper sets rely on ARM processors despite being made in China. Those processors can trace their history right back to the old BBC micro computer, that many will remember fondly! That computer was made by a company named "Acorn", and ARM originally stood for "Acorn RISC Machine".

The ARM processor is - in terms of sheer numbers, if nothing else - the most successful computer chip of all time, being manufactured in quantities that dwarf the output of Intel and AMD combined. That success owes much to clever licensing and management, on top of clever design. Whilst, as a nation, we are generally good at design, it is not often we are good at implementation or management!

[rant /off]

--

Pete

 

Edited By Peter Christy on 19/12/2020 09:31:41

[John Lee]

My 'Western' Spektrum Dx9:

[Frank Skilbeck]

Bear in mind also that Chinese companies aren't as weighed down in health and safety legislation as UK companies. When I visited a Chinese lifeboat supplier 20 odd years ago, I commented to the manager that was showing us around than flip flops, shorts and tee shirt wouldn't pass for PPE in the UK when laying up fibreglass. He commented that this customer hadn't specified any PPE but if we did the workers would get PPE for our contract (at extra cost!).

[Matt Carlton]

As a slight aside, if somewhat related, I was listening to a segment on Radio 4 the other day in which a shellfish producer was describing how it was more economical to have the Prawns caught by British boats in UK coastal waters shipped to China to be processed and packaged, then shipped back to be sold in the UK than it would be to have the processing and packing done in the UK.

[Geoff S]

Posted by Mitchell Howard on 18/12/2020 23:41:47:

Can I assume then Geoff you'd have no issue flying your models with say, a Jumper radio? I understand they're banned at some flying sites. Serious question, I honestly don't know which way is the right way.

Edited By Mitchell Howard on 18/12/2020 23:42:42

I don't really know anything about Jumper radios but I'm surprised they're banned anywhere. However, I doubt if there're any serious issues with them. I think all radio systems now, regardless of their make or origin are extremely reliable. Obviously things will go wrong from time to time (nothing is 100%) but radio failure is thankfully rare.

I've been a fan of Frsky 2.4gHz systems since I used a Futaba compatible plug-in for my old Futaba FF7 Super as a 'toe in the water' experiment into the new frequency. Then I made an adapter with a Frsky DiY module for my Multiplex 3030 35Mhz radio before buying an early Taranis. I use a Frsky Horus now almost exclusively and love it. OpenTX is so flexible. You can either take advantage if its flexibilty or ignore it.

I didn't come to aeromodelling until I retired back in the 1990s but my first RC activity was model yacht racing (2 channel 27Mhz Futaba) when I had to give up dinghy racing because of injury.

Geoff

[Phil McCavity]

Posted by Geoff S on 19/12/2020 11:37:21:

Posted by Mitchell Howard on 18/12/2020 23:41:47:

Can I assume then Geoff you'd have no issue flying your models with say, a Jumper radio? I understand they're banned at some flying sites. Serious question, I honestly don't know which way is the right way.

Edited By Mitchell Howard on 18/12/2020 23:42:42

I don't really know anything about Jumper radios but I'm surprised they're banned anywhere. However, I doubt if there're any serious issues with them. I think all radio systems now, regardless of their make or origin are extremely reliable. Obviously things will go wrong from time to time (nothing is 100%) but radio failure is thankfully rare.

The problems with the Jumper T16 are well known and they have responded to the major one with a program of free ribbon replacement which is okay for the original buyer but not so for anyone buying a used one as you need to contact the original supplier with your purchase details.

The ribbon cable problem is well documented on other forums and the regular RC youtubers.

[Bob Cotsford]

Posted by Mitchell Howard on 18/12/2020 23:39:01:....

I can get on board with the idea they're able to do their own R&D. I've seen it happen, but it doesn't read well to know that FRSky started out horribly unsuccessfully until the copied directly a JR radio.

Where did you get that from? FrSky started by producing plug in modules and receivers to allow the conversion of 35MHz transmitters to 2.4GHz. These used the Futaba and JR form factors. As I understand it their first foray into transmitter production (the Taranis) used a case mould that had been created for another company, not JR but using a similar layout. Internals were not copied from JR or anyone else beyond using commonly available RF chips. My series 1 Taranis is still going strong 6 or 7 years later and my Horuses (Horii?) are solid, well built and reliable units.

As for OpenTX, it's a capable system written and maintained by a dedicated and professional team. I have had no issues with it in 6 years of using it.

[Andy48]

Lets not forget that modern computer hardware is completely useless without the software to run it. In the case of OpenTX, while it has programming contributions from all over the world, the main core of programmers are based in Western Europe.

[Lima Hotel Foxtrot]

Posted by Peter Christy on 19/12/2020 09:29:11:

Posted by Eric Robson on 18/12/2020 22:30:30:

Taking of cheap chat and things should be made in this country. the youth of today have no experience of the chat that was produced in this country after the war and through the 60's and 70's . A motorcycle industry that thought no body would buy Japanese and carried on producing the same old thing year after year till it was too late to change. The cars that rotted away after a couple of years and had no end of problems, Where are the British car makers now. ? even R.R. and Bentley are German owned. The British attempts to make radio gear Waltron, Swan, Skyleader. etc. all fell by the wayside . People look at these things with nostalgia but in truth they were not very good . The British were good on ideas and innovations that lead the world but were let down by inefficient working practices and high labour costs.

Prepared for the flack of being unpatriotic.

[rant /on]

As someone who was also around during those years, I can agree with much of what you say. However, the blame cannot be entirely one-sided!

Many of the problems in the much of British manufacturing industry was caused by abysmal management - something we still suffer from today, even up to government level!

Far too many companies failed to re-invest even part of their profits, preferring to pay the money out to senior management and shareholders. I have no problem with those who have invested in a business reaping the rewards, until it reaches a point where it is actually detrimental to the survival of said business!

Far too many management bonus schemes (and government contracts!) seem designed to reward failure! Why on earth anyone should be given a bonus for simply doing their job is beyond me! And don't tell me that it is to "attract talent", because the evidence clearly suggests otherwise!

Whilst its easy to blame "bolshy workers" for much of the industrial strife in the 60s and 70s, those situations would never have arisen had those workers been treated with a modicum of respect.

Its interesting to note how many car plants - notorious for industrial unrest under British ownership - became models of peace and productivity once taken over by Japanese, or even European, managements.

As far as the RC industry went, most of the British manufacturers were of the "cottage industry" variety - often one-man bands - knocking out cheap, but often surprisingly reliable kit to British customers. Even the biggest manufacturers, like Skyleader and RCS, were pretty small fry in the scale of such things, and often only managed to survive due to winning the occasional industrial or government contract. (Remember Skyleader's target drones during the Falklands War?)

Compare that to outfits like Futaba, who are a "potting shed" on the side of a mammoth industrial conglomerate, and you can understand why it was so difficult to compete! When you can't even buy the components for the price of a ready made outfit, it is time to find another job!

On the plus side, I do find it heartening that so many of our hi-tech gadgets - be it smart phones or RC gear - have British technology at their heart. Even the very popular FrSky and Jumper sets rely on ARM processors despite being made in China. Those processors can trace their history right back to the old BBC micro computer, that many will remember fondly! That computer was made by a company named "Acorn", and ARM originally stood for "Acorn RISC Machine".

The ARM processor is - in terms of sheer numbers, if nothing else - the most successful computer chip of all time, being manufactured in quantities that dwarf the output of Intel and AMD combined. That success owes much to clever licensing and management, on top of clever design. Whilst, as a nation, we are generally good at design, it is not often we are good at implementation or management!

[rant /off]

--

Pete

Edited By Peter Christy on 19/12/2020 09:31:41

It's a real shame that one of the best examples of British design and manufacturing know-how has been recently flogged to the USA as an example of "Britain being open for business" a.k.a selling the family silver.

[leccyflyer]

Posted by Bob Cotsford on 19/12/2020 13:13:38:

Posted by Mitchell Howard on 18/12/2020 23:39:01:....

I can get on board with the idea they're able to do their own R&D. I've seen it happen, but it doesn't read well to know that FRSky started out horribly unsuccessfully until the copied directly a JR radio.

Where did you get that from? FrSky started by producing plug in modules and receivers to allow the conversion of 35MHz transmitters to 2.4GHz. These used the Futaba and JR form factors. As I understand it their first foray into transmitter production (the Taranis) used a case mould that had been created for another company, not JR but using a similar layout. Internals were not copied from JR or anyone else beyond using commonly available RF chips. My series 1 Taranis is still going strong 6 or 7 years later and my Horuses (Horii?) are solid, well built and reliable units.

As for OpenTX, it's a capable system written and maintained by a dedicated and professional team. I have had no issues with it in 6 years of using it.

That's my recollection and that's what I'm still using for all of my slope soarers, a Frsky module in an FF9.

[Stuart Z]

Posted by SIMON CRAGG on 18/12/2020 23:50:18:

After a l-o--n-g time in this wonderful hobby, my advice would be:

1. Go and find your local club.

2. Establish what make of gear the majority of members use. (Useful if you need help).

3. Read up on all the latest safety info available (Both at the club and the BMFA website).

4. Purchase the relevant gear.

5. Join the club, forget about the Chineese................and have FUN!.

Spot on I have been using Futuba since I started, happy with it. Others used JR and still others had Robbe. These all have a long established record and importantly trusted by their owners. Joining a club enables you to discuss pros and cons of each brand and learn who has occasional “problems”. It will also enable you to buy the kit that any potential instructor uses, makes their life easier. Best to turn up for a lesson with kit the instructor can use.
My views.

S

[Mitchell Howard]

Posted by Bob Cotsford on 19/12/2020 13:13:38:

Posted by Mitchell Howard on 18/12/2020 23:39:01:....

I can get on board with the idea they're able to do their own R&D. I've seen it happen, but it doesn't read well to know that FRSky started out horribly unsuccessfully until the copied directly a JR radio.

Where did you get that from? FrSky started by producing plug in modules and receivers to allow the conversion of 35MHz transmitters to 2.4GHz. These used the Futaba and JR form factors. As I understand it their first foray into transmitter production (the Taranis) used a case mould that had been created for another company, not JR but using a similar layout. Internals were not copied from JR or anyone else beyond using commonly available RF chips. My series 1 Taranis is still going strong 6 or 7 years later and my Horuses (Horii?) are solid, well built and reliable units.

As for OpenTX, it's a capable system written and maintained by a dedicated and professional team. I have had no issues with it in 6 years of using it.

I got that wrong Bob - it's Jumper that copied FrSky.

Thread

[Mitchell Howard]

Posted by Matt Carlton on 19/12/2020 10:52:01:

As a slight aside, if somewhat related, I was listening to a segment on Radio 4 the other day in which a shellfish producer was describing how it was more economical to have the Prawns caught by British boats in UK coastal waters shipped to China to be processed and packaged, then shipped back to be sold in the UK than it would be to have the processing and packing done in the UK.

When I first left education I worked at a machine tool manufacturer in the UK. In a bid to cut costs, secondary and tertiary manufacturing sites were set up in Southern Europe and China to complement the UK site. It will forever stick in my mind that it was cheaper to build the unit in China, ship it to the UK for it to be finessed by the British engineers up to quality standard for 2 weeks solid, then re-ship it back to China for less than it cost to build entirely in the UK.

[Mitchell Howard]

Posted by John Lee on 19/12/2020 09:34:35:

My 'Western' Spektrum Dx9:

Must remember that 'made in China' from a recognisable brand really means

1. Made to western drawings and materials and component specs
2. Made with help from the manufacturer to get started and set expectations
3. Made to western quality and inspection standards