Toolkit RC M9

[Philip Lewis 3]

Yes, you can dump the LiPo charge into anything you want, a resistor, a light bulb or another battery, but make sure you aren't about to overcharge the other battery as it will dump the charge no matter what with I would think no regulation, also you will need to check at what voltage it is discahrging at as it might discharge at the same voltage of the battery being discharged (i.e. a straight through connection). 

 

Can't tell you much more than that as I don't actually have this charger but have similar Hota ones that also have this function.

[Chris Walby]

Depends on how cleaver the discharger is?

• If its a resistance perhaps it raises the voltage until it meets the desired discharge current, so becomes a constant current device irrespective of voltage 
• If its a battery then it does the same sort of thing, by raising the output voltage until it reaches its set discharge current - this sort of sounds ok if its a very large lead acid that can tolerate this sort of charging profile. The concern is if you tried this with a low cell count/ low capacity Lipo, probably a good way of making it catch fire!  

There are bespoke lipo dischargers on the market that have low voltage cut off, but they do just generate heat in the process

ISDT FD-200 Smart Discharger,200W 25A Wireless APP Control Discharger Capacity for 2-8S Lipo Battery Discharging: Amazon.co.uk: Toys & Games

 

Interesting to know quite how it works, although I can't see how practical it would be.

 

[KenC]

To the Experienced users, what is the difference between  " balance charge"  and a unit that has balance and charge as two separate settings ?    Sorry this is a bit newbie , but we all have to learn !

[Philip Lewis 3]

41 minutes ago, KenC said:

To the Experienced users, what is the difference between  " balance charge"  and a unit that has balance and charge as two separate settings ?    Sorry this is a bit newbie , but we all have to learn !

In a balance charge the charger will only charge a cell to 4.2, for multicell batteries that means it will hld the voltage at that maximum while the other cells catch up, it does that by putting a resiator in line with the high cell to disipate the excess charge away as heat. Obviouslyit needs the balnce charge lead attached to te charger.

 

If using the simpler charge function the charger should not (but some do) need the balance charge lead attached and will simply charge the battery to 4.2 Volts X No of cells, so 3 cells it will put charge in uuntil the pack voltage reaches 12.6 volts, one cell might be 4.1 volts a second 4.2 but the third could have been charged to 4.3 which is why we don't generally charge useing it.

 

Hope that helps although obviously that is a simple explanation.

[KenC]

Yes Phil I get that fine, but for example the Toolkit M7 AC in its listing menu of charge settings has all the normal charge, storage, discharge  but NO Balance charge .... nor does it state in the adverts . It simply lists a setting for balance .. does that mean to balance before charging  or is it a one word setting for balance charge ?

 

[John Lee]

If you plug in the balance lead on the M7 it will automatically undertake a balanced charge - as will almost every modern charger.

 

From page 27 of the manual.

 

2. When charging and discharging lithium batteries, balancing only occurs if the balance plug is connected. The charger will automatically balance each cell if a balance plug is detected.

[KenC]

Thanks John , you might understand that for a newbie full of stats of competing products, when one says balance charge and the other does not mention it in the stats  you begin to think "if it don't say it in the stats it wont happen " .  Dear China we need plain unequivocal lists of abilities to compare !    The phrase " balancing only occurs with a balance plug " does not read the same as balancing always takes place when the plug is used on charging.    So it seems this also has a balance setting , what is that for when not charging ?

 

[Chris Walby]

Depends on the lipo and how used/abused its is but sometimes a balance charge can take a lot longer to fully charge the battery.

 

Example 3S2200 discharged to 50% e.g. 1100mAh and recharged at 2.2A should take 30 minutes to recharge (about that for a charger not on the balance setting), but I have had a lipo take a hour or just timed out on balance setting.

 

At the field I just charge (not balance) and then balance charge at home while in the same room watching them and doing something else. I then record the pre charge state and the amount of charge put back in. In my experience once the lipo looses 10% of its capacity I start to notice the peak performance is tailing off (hard to notice on a trainer, but on a poky set up, its apparent) time to retire the lipo before it gives trouble. Had lipos have a cell fail under high load which is just after take off, can't say its an enjoyable experience trying to get the model back into the field (over the hedge) with the ESC latched in low voltage cut out.

 

Sure there will be lots of things other people do and its just a case of doing what you want to do.

 

[Philip Lewis 3]

3 hours ago, KenC said:

Yes Phil I get that fine, but for example the Toolkit M7 AC in its listing menu of charge settings has all the normal charge, storage, discharge  but NO Balance charge .... nor does it state in the adverts . It simply lists a setting for balance .. does that mean to balance before charging  or is it a one word setting for balance charge ?

 

Ah now I see where you are confused, I think with this type of charger you always use the charge setting, if you have plugged in the balance lead it will balance charge the pack (whis is what it says in the manual). If you don't plug in the balance lead and select charge I think it will come up with a message to the effect of "do you want to charge without balancing" or something like that, if you say yes it will do a charge without balancing. (try that out).

 

The balance setting on these charges simply balances the cells out a whatever state of charge they are att it doesn't charge the pack. 

 

Agree it isn't obvious and abetter manual would help, you can see it is balance charging when the colours change at the end, mine go brown, then purple (charged but not balanced) then green.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Philip Lewis 3

[KenC]

Great answer  Philip , slowly the mist clears.  My only decision now is do I go for the M6 D AC  and forego the test settings , or do I go for the M7 AC  now  and perhaps look at dual when the fleet requires more voltage. What sort of times would you expect on returning from the flight line  with a depleted 6S 5000 50c , and charging for another flight ?  Balance charge of course. 

[Philip Lewis 3]

Can't answer the first question, I use Hota branded quad chargers three of to charge twelve packs at a time.

 

Second question, assuming pack depleted to about 30% then roughly 45 mins of charging with balancing taking another five minutes or so but YMMV, depends on how ell the pack was balanced just as one variable.

 

The best point for me with these balance chargers is that you can dictate the final finished voltage, I charge all my packs to 4.15 volts per cell which is about 95%, in theory that should roughly double the lifespan of the pack over continually charging to the maximum every time. 

[Outrunner]

9 hours ago, KenC said:

Great answer  Philip , slowly the mist clears.  My only decision now is do I go for the M6 D AC  and forego the test settings , or do I go for the M7 AC  now  and perhaps look at dual when the fleet requires more voltage. What sort of times would you expect on returning from the flight line  with a depleted 6S 5000 50c , and charging for another flight ?  Balance charge of course. 

Don't know if it's necessary but after use I like to let my packs cool down and have a rest before recharging. Nothing scientific, just a gut feeling.

[John Lee]

9 hours ago, KenC said:

Great answer  Philip , slowly the mist clears.  My only decision now is do I go for the M6 D AC  and forego the test settings , or do I go for the M7 AC  now  and perhaps look at dual when the fleet requires more voltage. What sort of times would you expect on returning from the flight line  with a depleted 6S 5000 50c , and charging for another flight ?  Balance charge of course. 

 

Ken, that is a large battery for field charging. Have you done the sums to check that the source battery can provide the necessary energy? On page 1 you mentioned your fuel pump & glow lead battery, the one in my field box I used to use when I flew glow only had about 85% of the energy of a 5000 6s battery! (LiPo 5000mAh x 22v = 110Wh vs Pb 7.2Ah x 12v = 89Wh)

[KenC]

Amazing source of knowledge gentlemen, thanks for your replies and aid in my education 🙂    Has anyone bought from Banggood , was amazed to see the prices almost half that of UK retail.  After all all this stuff is made in China !

[John Lee]

I bought my M6DAC from AliExpress, ordered 21 June arrived 29 June. The initial prices you see on their website do not include VAT. However when you put it in the basket & show a UK delivery address VAT is added. After ordering they deal with the UK customs and you can download a VAT invoice, so all legit. After the item clears customs they put on a UK shipping label & it comes to you as a domestic delivery via a courier or Royal Mail. Everything is tracked & you get frequent updates as to progress, I found it quite impressive.

 

I've not used Banggood in  recent years as their website states:

Do I need to pay import taxes and duties?

 

Yes, you are responsible for all import taxes and duties that may be charged when your parcel passes through Customs. You can also check the taxes and duties at the end of the checkout process.

 

 

[Philip Lewis 3]

25 minutes ago, KenC said:

Amazing source of knowledge gentlemen, thanks for your replies and aid in my education 🙂    Has anyone bought from Banggood , was amazed to see the prices almost half that of UK retail.  After all all this stuff is made in China !

I've bought loads of stuff from Bangood over the years and never had a single problem other than sometimes it can take a while to arrive but they have always provided tracking so at least you can see where it is.

 

Having said that I got my chargers from AliExpress and likewise have bought loads of stuff from them as well and never had a problem either.

 

Mine arrived with no duty attached and I bought three (seperately) so I don't think that is a fluke either, I used Pay Pal to pay.

 

Sometmes you can even get the accessories you want at the same time like the third box along shows when you click on it,  here it is with the balance board extension and main charge lead XT60 extension, makes it very easy and most of what I have bought on both simply isn't available in the UK anyway at any price.

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002033781780.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.10.3b451802ET2URA

 

 

 

 

[Philip Lewis 3]

6 minutes ago, John Lee said:

The initial prices you see on their website do not include VAT. However when you put it in the basket & show a UK delivery address VAT is added. After ordering they deal with the UK customs and you can download a VAT invoice, so all legit. After the item clears customs they put on a UK shipping label & it comes to you as a domestic delivery via a courier or Royal Mail. Everything is tracked & you get frequent updates as to progress, I found it quite impressive.

Thanks for jogging my memory John, that is also what happened to me and is my experience as well.

[KenC]

With Ali Express if they add VAT to the price at checkout, is there also a possibility of Import Duty to Customs ?   I am looking at the M9 charger and 100w PSU  for around £60 !   

[John Lee]

In my experience, with about half a dozen transactions, the price you see at checkout is the price you pay, nothing extra. I've just popped the M9 in the basket using the 'One Hundred Percent Store' who I used for my M6 & it shows:

 

 

Click the '?' next to tax and up pops:

 

 

When I placed my first order I saw that the payment went to AliPay (UK) Ltd. I looked them up at Companies House and found that on their last annual report they showed a revenue of £295million & they paid UK taxes which satisfied me as to the legitimacy. 

[KenC]

Thank you for that , I will most likely go for that and the ADP 100w power supply.... seems as able as the M7AC  but a bit meatier.  Funny the multi cable they add with it has connections for everything except  NiMH flight packs with Futaba plugs and clips for a 12v lead acid .  

 

£295 million !    🤪

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by KenC

[KenC]

Not to labour the issue , can anyone with superior electronics knowledge confirm if the AD100 100w Power Supply that can output 20v , 5amps  match the M9 which claims 25 amp max input. There are 9 amp and bigger power supplies but the money goes up quite a bit .

[John Lee]

The M9 has a 600watt capacity so a 100w power supply means that you can only use it to 1/6th of its capability. In the case of your 6S 5000mAh battery in theory for a 1c charge that needs 5 amps for 1hour at 22volts so the power supply can't quite manage that. In practice there will be losses in the circuitry so you are probably looking at about a 90 min charge from empty (of course corresponding less for a partial discharged battery).

 

Have a look at this recent thread which gives some good ideas for alternative power supplies:

 

I went for the M6DAC as it has a built in mains power supply, rather than having to add one on. It can also charge 2 batteries at up to 350 watts each or you can link the 2 outputs to make a single 700 watt charger, admittedly it's £30 dearer (cost to me last month was £89.67) but I felt the extra capabilities made it a better buy for me. I typically charge 8-10 batteries 3 or 4 times a week on a couple of chargers, the M6DAC replaced another make dual output charger which developed a fault.

 

Of course your needs & views on this may well differ. 

 

[KenC]

John I am starting to wonder, I understand that V x a = W  so a 20v power supply at 10a can only offer 300w surely . When they say the M9 is 600W , only when it has a 30v power at 20a !   Similarly the 350w claim for the M6D AC  would require 20v at 15a ... or do they base the claims on the DC input  using that P200 PSU at 28v ?

 

When your M6D  AC says it can do 350w , is that on AC or DC ?  What is the max wattage it can achieve on AC ?      This is why I cant press "BUY"  because I can't make it all add up in my poor mind .

 

[RottenRow]

Ken,

 

Below is a excerpt from the specifications given in the M6DAC instruction manual…..
 

Specification
    Charging
Input
DC 7-28V@MAX30A AC [email protected]
Battery Type
LiPo LiHV LiFe Lion@1-6S NiMh @1-16S Pb @1-10S
Bal Cur.
1000mA @2-6S
Accuracy
<0.005V
Charging Power
0.1-15A@350W *2 (Asynchronous mode) 0.1-25A@700W (Synchronous mode)
 

The maximum input current with a DC input is 30A, at the stated maximum 28V this is 840 Watts. However 28V is an odd value for a power supply, so going on the more easily obtainable 24V that is 720W. Charging at the field with a 12V battery the theoretical maximum would be 360W, perhaps a little more for a well charged 12V battery, but drawing 30A from any 12V battery is going to give you problems. It won’t do that for too long…

 

For an AC input, assuming a 230V supply in the UK, the maximum would be 575W (230V x 2.5A).

 

The figures above don’t allow for any losses within the charger (heat losses) which would reduce the maximum output (charging) power slightly.

 

You mentioned previously that you want to charge a 6s 5000mAh battery, this would take in the region of 110W or so (charging at 1C, ie 5A) which is easily within the ratings of this charger on either AC or DC input. It would still draw approaching 10A from a 12V battery input though.

 

Brian.

 

[KenC]

Thanks Brian , my query was the "dual" output. On  AC it quotes 200w max , do you think its internal electronics can handle  full 200w on both outputs concurrently with AC ?