I say ban 'em !

[Tim Mackey]

First off, you better take a look at THIS. Then come back, and join in the discussion.

I am gonna risk some controversy here - hang on - just let me get my hard hat and the engine warmed up ready.

 

     I think this type of thing is dangerous for the hobby as whole.

 

Now, dont get me wrong, I love the things, I love the speed, I admire the pilots, and on the whole, these sort of machines are built to perform. I'm also not averse to a spot of risk on the slope during combat, and delight in trying to ruffle my mates hairstyle with the Vapor ( 1oz AUW ) during our indoor sessions. However. Consider these factors.

 

A) These things by the very nature of the speed attained, almost always have to fly a LONG way out, and I would wager often overfly what would be high risk zone - housing or other buildings, roads, public access spots and so on.

 

B)The fire risk is very high - nay maybe even inevitable in the event of a crash. having a fire extinguisher at the time of spool up is ho use if the crash happens 1/2 ml away.

 

C)The sheer velocity and energy of these things is quite scary - even standing next to them as they spool up to full revs is enough to make me edgy.

 

D)There is ALWAYS a risk that things could go wrong in ANY flight of an RC model - the possible reasons are almost innumerable - as the Mythbusters always say

Failure is always an option. The consequences of such an incident with a model like that are higher than with an average sport model, or even a fast EDF.

 

E) The sheer spectacle and noise etc of these things is bound to attract more attention to the hobby - and we know how Joe public often likes to spoil our fun - not forgetting the official fun police.

 

I know its progress,  I know they are fantastic machines, I know they sound gorgeous, but I just cant help thinking that all things considered the flying of these things should be limited to properly organised shows with the right facilities and controls.

Im sorry - I dont want to be a killjoy - even one of our own club members fly's one at our little local strip.

Maybe its just me, but somehow, the type of "performance" seen in this video should be BANNED.

There, Ive said it, now lets here what others think

[Wiltshire Flyer]

I completely agree with you Tim.

 

I have been out of the loop for a long time with regards to the specifics of advancement of these jet powered javelins so i can not go into too much detail but to say that you don't need to be a brainbox to see the danger in these things.

 

I personally do not see the need for such performance especially when all you can really do with something flying that fast is do your best to very quickly set it up for the next pass over and over.

 

And your point on the fire and danger to the public is a very very good one.

 

There is risk in the hobby as we all know and we all do our best to limit any mishaps but  things do and will go wrong at some point, the difference with these aircraft compared with more traditional models is the scale and severity of the damage it could cause.

 

One of those hits a roof it will in my mind not just damage, but go through it and then you have the fire and possible loss of life.

 

The risks to everyone far outweigh the rewards in my opinion.

 

Oh dear...... i seem to have rambled.....   

 

 

[Eric Powell]

I tend to agree with your arguements but i can forsee a number of problems.

 

Firstly, how will a ban be enforced?

 

Its alright a club saying that one of these things cannot be flown from their fields but what will stop someone flying from a patch of wasteground.

 

It would also be interesting to hear what the BMFA has to say on the subject especially with a view to insurance cover.

[Steve W-O]

I'm against any more regulation, but at the same time it is clear that this poses a far greater risk to all concerned (ie the hobby as a whole, the public etc).

 

Flying it near houses or a road would be irresponsible, but then so would flying a glow powered 6lb plane in a park.

 

Often watching a pilot performing difficult manoevres, you wonder how much is skill, and how much was luck.

 

Maybe something that states if the max speed times the weight in pounds is greater than 1000 (just thumb suck figures) then it would come under the large model rules, and anything capable of above 200mph could only be flown by a pilot with a C ticket.

[Wingman]

That kind of flying can't really be classed as model flying - it's just strapping the biggest jet you can afford onto the smallest airframe that will take it and going like hell - so people who wish to do that will not be interested in any kind of regulation, they will just go and do their own thing regardless. The unfortunate thing is that, of course, if one of them  destroys a house or a bus or something (not impossible with that amount of energy) then the whole hobby gets it in the neck. The only real solution would be for it to be illegal to fly a model aircraft above a certain speed and I don't think we want to be going down that route (police at the field with speed guns aaargh nooooo.......)

[Ultymate]

You're sounding like the "Fun Police" here guys. Many if not all aspects of our hobby are dangerous and always will be so. Video footage almost inevitably, unless shot with professional equipment, always makes orientation and viewing of subjects like this far more difficult than in reality it is.

       Most jets I've come across are by their nature and cost meticulously prepared and flown.As for the BMFA I'm sure they're well aware of what goes on within the hobby, the jets by the way do have their own association. Take a look at other disciplines C/L team racing speed including pulse jets, pylon racing  F3F slope racing, free flight. I don't know whether Tim titled this thread to be deliberately controversial but it'll surely draw plenty of posts. Start banning things and we'll all end up flying nowt worthwhile. 

 

 

P.S. I'm not a jet jockey and nor do I have any intention of becoming one 

Edited By Ultymate on 08/11/2010 08:12:07

[Mike Rolls]

The video wasn't too brilliant so I found it difficult, for example, to judge how close the model was to those power lines. Also, I don't know what houses, etc., may have been anywhere near. Whether that particular flight posed an unacceptable level of risk, therefore, I don't know.

On the general question - first, if you say 'ban such models.flying' - how? Obviously in a club set-up we can sort such a problem out, but as has been said, anyone wanting to indulge in such an activity is unlikely to be fazed by not being able to do it at a club site.

Overall, I have to say  - what is the point of such flying? Just dashing back and forth gets a bit boring after about the third pass and very boring after the tenth! 

Mike 

[Tony Smith 7]

I see the point with such an extreme example, but where would you pitch the ban?  By speed, or power, or engine type?

[Peter Miller]

I think that they are all right in the right place, The trouble is that they will not always be flown in the right place.

 

I would like to think that anyone who spends that sort of money on a model and engine would have some sense but, being a nasty, cynical old man, I doubt it.

 

Banning? Well, there are an awful lot of things that are banned or illegal starting with using a mobile phone while driving. The law doesn't seem to have much effect on that.

 

I remember a few years ago that a council banned the flying of models over 36" span.

They didn't realise that a 36" span model with a .25 up front could be highly lethal.

 

That jet was apparently flying from a club site as that was not a road but had a start  and end.

 

Far more worrying were the pylons. Got the wrong side of powerlines and your signal has gone.

[r6dan]

I do agree that those kinda planes can be very dangerous in the wrong hands,but IMOP as long as they are flown responsibly from a safe field/strip  by someone who knows what they are doing I don`t see a problem with it. I,as a newcomer to the hobby flying my arising star or Acro Wot  have just as much chance if not more chance of loosing it,getting disorientated and crashing it causing damage to someone or property than someone who is very competent flying one of those.I suppose if one of those jets hit something the consequences will be a lot higher of causing a lot of damage.

Banning those is like banning the motorbike I ride because it can do 180 mph,yes I have ridden it flat out on a number of occasions but I have years of experience riding and do it at a time and place that is safe to do so.

[Josip Vrandecic -Mes]

Tim I agree ,There no safe field for this flight,RC pilot can be fully capable ,but this is really dangerous for everyone .If he sneeze.... come disaster

[ken anderson.]

yes well the worlds gone mad when you can buy these component's over the counter and assemble it to fly at speed's which are out of this world.......the majority wont even think of doing so----but the couldn't care less type's..who have to have the latest thrill/money no object toy's will buy and attempt to fly(if that's the right word) a one in the nearest avalable space.....

it's at times like this that i'm glad i'm underneath the BMFA's wing and all the rules etc that go with that.....at our club field...we have a responsibilty to police ourselves...as part of our agreement with the local council.....and as such we have to discipline ourselve's....as the space we use is also used by other's..and at the sane time....as to timbo's thought's...i will go along with them and hope that some sort of rule's/guideance is issued.........hopefully before and accident--- not after.....

finally i would recomend all r/c modeller's take time out and 'google' accident's with model's involving 3rd parties etc.......it's not nice reading...... 

 

 ken anderson   ne...1.

 

[Dan Hedges]

I have to say that I am not in favour of banning any models. These small jets represent the progress of our sport and I think we should welcome them, along with FPV flying etc. I do think some form of regulation is in order for models capable of going over a certain speed, just as there is for models over a particular size.

 

We can discuss the unscrupulous few who will ignore any ruling about these machines, but on that basis we would have to ban all models. I bet there are a few people who buy IC powered planes from ebay etc then fly them in parks etc either because they dont know any better or just don't care.

[Pete B]

I assume from the speech on the video that this is somewhere in mainland Europe (unless it's East Anglia, of course...........) and there may well be a much lower population density than in the UK. This jobbie certainly takes up a lot of airspace and the ground footprint for collateral damage in the event of a mishap will inevitably be in the order of several square kilometres.

 

However, I can foresee the CAA, once they have a sight of this sort of machine, looking closely at the current regs on turbines at the very least. I'm sure it can be argued that they have it about right in respect of typical large models at the moment but this is an entirely different ball game.

 

Certainly some food for thought for the BMFA, I'd say.

 

Pete

 

 

 

 

 

[Tim Mackey]

I knew Id wake up to a few new posts on this

To address some of the comments - yes of course the thread was titled to draw attention, and may be considered controversial - but that doesnt mean it cant be discussed reasonably - and thats the intention.  Its important to note that I chose my words carefully,  for instance using the word BAN is always going to attract interest, however I havent said ban flying super fast jets and the like, what I said was: ban this type of performance seen in that video.

 

"how will a ban be enforced?"  - dont know. However because something is dangerous enough, or "illegal" in some way, yet policing it will be difficult, doesnt give cause to simply  not bother trying. Sure driving using the mobile is illegal, but people still do it.

Murder is illegal, and people still do it - but as a civilised society ( another debate? ) surely we shouldnt advocate ignoring it ...because its too hard to enforce. I too wonder just what the BMFA would say if asked to put forward our case in the vent of a serious incident arising from such a performance.

 

"we are sounding like the fun police" -  yes Brian, I know, but I did stress that this was not my intention in the following text.

"dont get me wrong, I love the things, I love the speed, I admire the pilots, and on the whole, these sort of machines are built to perform. I'm also not averse to a spot of risk on the slope during combat, and delight in trying to ruffle my mates hairstyle with the Vapor ( 1oz AUW ) during our indoor sessions. I know its progress,  I know they are fantastic machines, I know they sound gorgeous, but I just cant help thinking that all things considered the flying of these things should be limited to properly organised shows with the right facilities and controls. Im sorry I dont want to be a killjoy".

 

"People who wish to do that will not be interested in any kind of regulation, they will just go and do their own thing regardless".

Completely agree - and its an argument I use often when discussing such things, but I still think my point above ( we should still have the rules etc ) applies here too.

 

"Many if not all aspects of our hobby are dangerous and always will be so".

Agreed, but its our responsibility to limit those dangers by having sensible rules and guidelines, thats why we have pegboards, model restraints, and so on. My point is, that surely a line needs to drawn somewhere as to what is sensible, and acceptable, otherwise the real fun police WILL ban us from flying anything. IMO the performance in this video was just far too risky, and is exactly the type of thing which attracts the busy bodies and do gooder fun police types to start complaining. Flying a model like that, through power lines etc - come on....its fun yes but safe and responsible? No.

 

"Most of these jets are meticulously prepared and flown" I already acknowledged that, but it doesnt prevent things going wrong.

 

"I do agree that those kinda planes can be very dangerous in the wrong hands,but IMOP as long as they are flown responsibly from a safe field/strip  by someone who knows what they are doing I don`t see a problem with it."  Nor do I - thats my point  - flown responsibly in the right environment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Ultymate]

OK Tim to a degree I accept what you're saying but I just hate the idea of banning things ad hoc  because it usually just drives the said activity underground whether it be fox hunting bare fist fighting badger baiting dog fighting or whatever, they do still happen and I hasten to add I'm not in favour of any of the above although I detest the badgers that visit my garden most evenings.

               My point being if you try and ban any reasonable activity you will penalise the genuine enthusiast and the lunatic fringe will carry on regardless.

              As for Phil's  point I would suggest that driving on the said motorway is a far more dangerous pastime than flying a well trimmed chuck glider adjacent to it.

                       Keep your toys in good working order get the strength of the insurance companies around you and play safely   

[Tim Mackey]

No! - the first step was doing it , the next step was publicly displaying it on U tube, all Iam doing is opening a debate about it.

As I keep trying to stress, I am not in favour of banning the models, or the flying of them, I just think something needs to be done about this sort of performance in particular, before the heavy hand comes in be that CAA or whatever, and throws the baby out with the bathwater.

[Tim Mackey]

That post was to Polly - you posted as I was typing Bri

[Tim Mackey]

"Play safely"  - absolutely Brian

[GONZO]

Thinking about the dangerous aspect, I'm surprised that some terrorist organisation has not cottond on to useing our jet powered toys. A few pounds of military grade explosives in the air frame, higher Tx power FPV for remote control and higher power R/C Tx for airframe control - all easily done and not that costly. Launch from a catapult ramp concealed in a largish box style lorry (sliding roof panel for aircraft exit). You dont have to kill people, a publicity action would be just as effective.

THAT WOULD GET A BAN!

Very, very tounge in cheek , but, Bruce at rcmodelreviews has done something similar HERE

[Peter Miller]

Now here is an interesting thought.

 

Back in the 80s I wrote "The Engine Bay". I was concerned about the size of models being flown. I was concerned that anyone could build one and fly it. especially at shows. In passing, I have a clipping of a story about a 6 ft, 6" span Pitts that crashed in a crowd in Hungary killing two and injuring four more.

 

At the time I suggested that these giant scale models should be inspected while under construction.

 

Dr Jeremy Shaw who was a leading light in the large model movement of the day went berserk over this suggestion. I was condemned in no uncertain terms for even suggesting such a thing.

 

I understand that all models over a certain size have to be inspected during construction  these days.

 

My point is this. Models with this potential performance do need to be controlled, possibly inspected, possibly by specifying safe flying sites. There will be those who say that  we can't have such controls should just consider my points above.

 

Don't forget that  jet that burnt out 11 acres of crops at Duxford this year.

 

So don't restrict performance, just control the operation. After all, if you want to drive at over 70 mp.h. legally you have to go on a race track.

 

Yes, there maybe the fool who ignores the controls but there always will be, just like the mobile phone users and motorway speeders.

 

Maybe people now will object to the idea of controls but they will come in when such performances becone more common

[flytilbroke]

I can certainly see that this particular site is perhaps not the best for models of this nature. I do not see any need for draconian measures to ban such models.

 

Perhaps a pause for thought before jumping on the "Ban them" bandwagon?

 

1: We already have regulation covering flying in a safe manner with ANY model.

2: If the risk was excessivley high the insurance companies would already have withdrawn cover for them.

3: The risk from any model, in this case Gas Turbine, has been discussed many times and reasonable guidlines issued or advised by the main model flying bodies.

 

Even model gliders pose a severe risk if large or heavy. A Four Metre span 15 kilo model out of control at diving speed. Like being hit with a cannon ball, and they could destroy Castles. Less fire risk though.

 

Better to ban commercial jets based on the POSSIBLE consequence.

[Marc Humphries]

What was this guy doing wrong, exactly?

 

He was flying a fast model jet - as many people do.  I saw a fire extinguisher at his launch site.  There didn't appear to be anyone else at his flying site other than his helper and camera man.

 

What was he overflying?  I think the power lines are a red herring - he was nowhere near them.

 

How do his fast passes differ from those at Cosford or any other large UK show? In fact, they are safer because there was no crowd.

 

This stuff isn't for me - but I can't see what he is doing wrong.  Even such venerated souls as Andy Ellison fly jets from his grass club strip.  Are we daring to ban him?  He also admits to flying "blisteringly fast passes with his moulded lead sleds" on public slopes - and derides the small foamie that "dares" get in the way.

Edited By Marc Humphries on 08/11/2010 12:36:07

[Ultymate]

It would indeed be nice to see/hear Slopetrash UK's take on this thread