Panther Trainer Autogyro

[sebrien andre]

Richard Here you have 2 photos . Unstable : I mean giving the minimum order on roll or pitch gives a lot of response of the panther oscilating from right to left with lots of movements and never staying stable for a while !! I have to fight continualy with all cyclic orders . Very difficult after living the ground quite easily, to have a gentle straight flight , quite impossible ! Still oscilating as if it was not centered at all  Giving an order aileron right for example , and it stays like that ,giving left next ,right ,but very nervously  and so on ...Same on pitch !!....Flying the firefly is so easy compared to this .  It's a miracle I did not crashed ! I made 2 flights with different throws ( second minus 20%)    "SOMETHING IS WRONG "  ! I can't find what  .I made a mistake somewhere  .Thanks Andre

Edited By sebrien andre on 27/03/2013 13:40:24

Edited By sebrien andre on 27/03/2013 13:41:30

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 27/03/2013 15:45:15

[Koen Smits]

Andre,

I suppose you fly electric and i see the rudder servo is placed in the tail. My question is, how much extra weight ( lead) did you have to put in the nose to balance on the CofG point? Because i need to put a lot of weight in the nose to get CofG ad the right position as i wrote already about 3 pages ago.

[Erfolg]

In some ways I can see the benefit of the one thread, yet I am finding it increasingly difficult to find anything i suspect is here, but where?

I do find the access to all the pictures of models in progress stimulating. Enough to keep me going.

The other real benefit is the questions posed and the answers. In some respects it is obvious that the head and blades are of critical importance, yet without discussion, a broader understanding of many will not be achieved. This understanding could move autogyros from a dark art, to a predictable engineering/science.

I can not be commend the models which have been posted, showing what can be done

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Sebrien - can I ask a favour please? When you post multiple pictures could you leave a blank line between them? Also between the pictures and the text. Pictures without a gap mess up the page formating for some browsers you see so I have to go in and edit.

No big problem - but if you could remember that would be great!

BEB

PS Nice panther!

[Tom Wright 2]

Posted by Richard Harris on 27/03/2013 12:42:55

Efrolg,

I looked at the Crane Fly thread and it has alot of posts making it almost impossible to find information quickly which is not ideal for people looking in.

 

Rich Erfolg.

This highlights the difference between a build blog, pdf ,or plan ,and the inevitable quest for more knowledge and differentials in build standard that require sorting out via general discussion on the thread.

As the Crane Fly thread was mentioned it's worth pointing out that the SFH PDF includes everything a builder needs to know to build and get the model flying , but the thread it's self is only really useful when the current topic is of interest to most looking in .

Long threads tend to be frequented by a tight knit band of enthusiasts ,and can often be just as much social as technical , so that helps to keep interest going and encourages new contributors. Lets be honest when most plans are obtained it will not often be possible to get daily help and advice from the designer so these threads are bound to go on a bit. .

Tom.

 

Edited By Tom Wright 2 on 27/03/2013 16:32:49

[Erfolg]

Tom

I accept all that you have written, at least in principle.

I see the thread as having many valuable nuggets of information, jsu like the needle in the haystack, it is finding the bit you want.

What is needed is some one with a clever idea of how they can be pulled into a single place.

The social side is, I agree, very useful. Even when I sometimes think, if only I could build like that, and then go off and sulk.

Regards

Carl

[Richard Harris]

Tom,

Very good point. OK, maybe it would a god idea to open up a thread when the time arises for say 'trimming and flying'?

Andre,

Your model set up looks 'bang on' regards it's set up, there are 2 reasons I can think of that will cause a twitchy set up.

The first is a CG too far back, this we can illiminate from your photos but a little extra nose weight will never hurt. Or, are you able to turn around your gearbox so that the spindle centre is further rearwards?

The second is well made blades with good lift. Yes, this will produce a slower flying model but it will also making things sensitive, in roll more than pitch. The easiest way is to reduce your throws to suit your style of flying. If the TE is thinner than that stated on the plan it will produce more lift.

This is what I suggest doing to start with, reduce your throws and add balast weight to the nose. Try a few hops and let us know if there is a difference?

Rich

[sebrien andre]

Hi I did not add extra weight to get CG at right place perhaps because of overallweight (1650 gr ) and battery used 4S 3000 . I will remeber the blank between images , no problem . Richard , thanks for answers , I will continue the way you say and tell you the results Again Many Thanks Andre

[Big T]

Rich, is it possible that Andre has one of the following

1) weak servos trying to hunt for the position commanded (I have had this on some digital servos)

2) Servo's movement is too fast (move the clevis in on the arm)

3) A stiffness in the head causing it to stick

I also notice that he has a shed load of heli's in his hanger and would point out as a recnet covert from fixed wing helic background that Gyro's do not fly like either and I found that I had to use far mor rudder than I was used to. When helping others to convert I found that they try to fly the model on aileron just like a bank and yank fixed wing and therefore overcorrected and "chased" the neutral position. Just a thought.

Tim

PS Andre, nice workshop amigo, don't give up it will fly

[sebrien andre]

Big T I have 9kg Futaba S3305 servos not too fast but I don't understand why this would be a problem ! No stiffness in the head . One thing you are right I surely don't fly it , try to fly it, the good way because of 20 years flying helis ! I understood this with the firefly but old reflexes surely remain ! I won't give up and tell you how it goes Regards Andre

[Erfolg]

Another issue has been raised, that is how to control a Autogyro.

Perhaps a description of the how to fly an autogyro and the differences relative to fixed wing, as I think that will be the background for most.

[Terry Whiting 1]

Erfolg,

I can not see how someone descibing the flight of their AG would be of any help. I'm sure no two models would fly identical as no two flyers use their sticks identically. You are/ have to be the test pilot of you own creation .Rich gave very good advise in making your the first test flights in a series of ''hops' .This should tell if you have the model in trim, and slowly build confidence at the same time. I.for one will take the advice given even though my first AG will be the SFH Crane Fly. The Panther will be second..

Terry TW1

[Erfolg]

Well Terry, it seems we do not fly an autogyro in the same manner as a fixed wing aircraft. Hmm, I can accept that. The next question for me then is, how do I fly it?

I always remember advice given by my farther. Once you know something can be done, the next question you should be asking yourself is how was it done. Asking those who have done it, listening to the reply, asking yourself what matters, answering the question, is the difference between your success and failure.

[J3hne]

Hi Richard,

My efforts so far. Just needs a brave pilot to complete the cockpit!!

Please can you let me know the best way to ballance on G of G?

Cheers. john

[Terry Whiting 1]

Yes Erfolg I knew an AG wasn't going to fly as any other model I have flown, it was because of that very reason I wanted to build and fly an AG . Having a querying mind is wonderful, but the how and why for has never bothered me, if it had I doubt if I would have ever built and flown any of my own designs. You yourself are redesigning the Panther at 75% so you must expect it's flight chracteristics to differ from Rich's model. I accepted the fact it is a new learning curve, but then I love a challenge. We are lucky in having Rich and Tom who have done all the hard graft .

The reason I chose Tom's AG was because of his PDF which I straight away printed..

TW1

[Pete B]

Posted by John Elkins on 28/03/2013 08:17:55:

Please can you let me know the best way to ballance on G of G?

If you look at Richard's post of 17th Feb, 1820hrs here on page 14, you'll see a pic of the base of the mast with servo eyelets inserted on the C of G position. Neat idea which I shall use

Pete

[Richard Harris]

John,

Very nice Panther, you have made an excellent job, your colour selection will give it good visablity.

Rich

[Erfolg]

Terry

I think we are both talking about different things.

I am interested in the basics of autogyro flight, not the detail of individual models.

Without trying to get any structure into my thoughts. There has been a suggestion that right hand turns differ from left. Guidance on how to spin up the rotor, from the hand and from the ground. Is motor speed used to control climbing and sinking. How do you trim the model for flight, is faster forward speed safer than slower. What happens if a lot of rotor pitch up is pulled?

We have similar guidance notes for fixed wing flight. For helicopters there are recommended methods of training for flight, rather than open the throttle and go for it.

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Erf, given that, would you mind please chatting about these things in your existing 'how do they fly' thread, thanks.

 

Edited By David Ashby - RCME on 28/03/2013 13:07:01

[Erfolg]

Done, David

[Andy Nash]

Posted by John Elkins on 28/03/2013 08:17:55:

Hi Richard,

My efforts so far. Just needs a brave pilot to complete the cockpit!!

Cheers. john

 

Hi John

Wow looks very good indeed.

Just one thing I noticed, does the plan ask for shims to be added to the triangle plade. These are to give a very small amount of negative to each blade. I have some on mine.

Where have I put that RCM&E with the plan. I must be getting old

Regards

Andy

 

Edited By Andy Nash on 28/03/2013 20:35:22

[J3hne]

Hi Andy,
Abundance are on the blades as per plan.
Cheers
John

[J3hne]

Should have read shims!!

[J3hne]

Hi All,

Thanks to Pete for showing me where to find balancing tip. Cheers.

( all the info you need in the thread, just difficult find without reading everything)

Mine came out tail heavy and have had to add 4oz lead to front.

I am correct in thinking you balance to C of G without blades??

Just need speed controller, ordered, then time to set up.

Cheers.

[Terry Whiting 1]

John With it's blades, after all they are your wing. Look at page 3 as Rich has added an attachment showing how to balance . Pages 1-3 gives the whole build right up to how to balance. .

Terry TW1