Williams Bros Kits

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I've spent tonight assembling a Williams Bros 1/6th kit of the Spandau machine gun. In case you're not familar its a fairly standard plastic kit you glue together with polystyrene cement such as MEK.

 

This kit cost me £12.50 and I have to say I was very dissapointed with the quality of the mouldings which I thought was very poor indeed. I spent much of my youth buiding plastic kits and frankly the quality of most of them was infinitely better than this.

 

To say there was excessive moulding flash would be to understate things. I had to spend ages extensively trimming and cleaning every part. Some parts intended to be close fitting were impossible to assemble, presumably because the components have inaccuracies in them.

 

I know £12.50 isn't a fortune these days, but I expect better than this at that price. Clearly the moulding equipment being used is very old - modern high pressure injection moulding does not require nearly so many, or so large, feed lines. The moulds are obviously of either poor quality, or more likely, badly worn. I think if Williams Bros want to stay a name to be respected in the modelling world they need to consider investing in some new kit!

 

Anyone else had comparable experiences with their stuff?

 

BEB

[Stephen Grigg]

I did get a dummy engine  kit for a collegues 96" Flair Steerman and the cylinders alone were about £160 and than we had to come up with something to use as a crankcase.Total cost was as much as the engine he used

Edited By Stephen Grigg on 09/11/2011 23:57:35

[Lindsay Todd]

Beb, yes similar experience, i think new tooling is required before somebody comes along and shows them how to do it properley, its a shame as they are extensively used by many scale modellers, I guess some are better than others but the Vickers and Lewis for an Se5a were both similarly poor in my opinion.

Linds

 

[Reno Racer]

BEB,

 

completely agree. I bought a vickers a few years ago and recently a Lewis Gun, both1/6 scale Williams Bros. Both low quality mouldings, which I then had to modify to both mount properly and to look less like a toy gun!

 

You're right, I can't believe when comparing these to the Hasegowa/Tamiya or even Revell and Airfix aircraft models I built as a kid, there is no comparision to the quality of detail and fit of parts. Their pilots are the same.

 

When I build the 1/4 Scale Neuiport 11, I think I'll have to whittle the gun from balsa and metal. Arizona Models do them, but I don't need a second mortage at the minute!

[Bob Cotsford]

I too got a couple of Spandeaus for the Baronette and had issues with the fit and finish.

Maybe it's the lack of competition that allows them to get away with itb but then I think all Williams products are expensive, their wheels are outrageous prices.

[Richard Wood]

I also agree that the gun kits are quite poor quality & overpriced, & that

a lack of competition has possibly made them a tad complacent regarding

improving them.

A Flair scout just doesn't look right without a gun!

I found the Le Rhone 1/6 scale cylinder kit to be slightly better though.

Memories of superb Hasegawa kits remind how it can be done!

 

 

[andy watson]

Yes, they are overpriced- but then what scale accessory isn't?

 

As to the quality- it's probably unfair to compare their manufacturing equipment to someone like airfix. They undoubtably need some work, but be honest, once painted black with graphite they do look perfect in their place. I certainly don't agree they look like toy guns, unless you describe the whole model as a toy plane.

 

I 100% agree with Bob about the price of their wheels though.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Mmm, don't really get that Andy, why is it probably unfair to compare Williams Bros with Airfix? An injection moulding machine is an injection moulding machine and they are not particularly expensive compared to many other industrial machine tools. Moreover, because of the emergence of high quality, easy to use, commercial 3D solid modelling design software such as SolidWorks etc., and the ready availability of 5 axes CNC machine tools, the production cost of new mould tooling has never been lower than it is now. Airfix and WB could easily use the same type of injection moulding machines - Airfix might have more of them that's all.

 

For me this isn't really about scale assessories being overpriced - yes I agree with you, they are! - its about the quality you get for that price and reinvesting in your business. WB seem to me to showing the classic western industry management disease - take the money out of the company, don't re-invest in new tooling or processes. This is fine for a while, but eventually, as Lyndsay implied, someone in China is going to spend £10k on a modern small injection moulding machine and £5k on some new tooling and start knocking out these things at 10 times the quality, 5 times the speed and half the price! And WB's business has just gone down the pan for the sake of investing £15k every 10 to 15 years or so. It seems very short sighted to me, but then I'm an engineer and as the accountants in almost any British compnay will tell you - I would think like that wouldn't I?

 

Last night, as I say, I spent over 3 hours assembling this thing, making the best job I could of it. Tonight I will probably spend another couple of hours with the Milliput trying to make it look right and coving up defects in the moulding process. In 2011 I shouldn't have to do that. With this level of investment of time I'd have been much better off making my own from scratch - next time maybe I will.

 

BEB

[flyeruk]

Having just installed a pilot in my Hannibal,i have just ordered a 1/4 scale spandau gun to finnish it off.

I have read about the poor quality but thought i would give it a go. At £22.75 i hope its not too bad.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I found that in the end the kits made up into a good model - but only after a lot of additional work (i.e. additional to what you might expect!) between opening the package and installing the unit on the model!

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 16/04/2012 22:56:42

[flyeruk]

BEB, can i ask you,how did you attach the gun to your model?

[Erfolg]

BEB

I would think the reason the quality of the kit is poor, is as stated the old tooling. I also suspect that the number of kits sold each year are very low, perhaps just a few thousand world wide. Even if the numbers are 2 or 3 times higher, not a lot.

On that basis, the amount of money available for new dies is probably low. I guess the tooling is just maintained to keep it functional. Using the term in the loosest manner.

I would not be surprised if the tooling is only put on a machine once a year, run for a few hours, to obtain the total to match the sales projection for quite some time, maybe well over a years projected sales. Most of the time it is stuck in a store room, incurring charges, to some one.

It could be that Williams have shipped the tooling out to China, although I suspect it is somewhere in the USA, with a small trade moulder. I think China probably causes to many difficulties in communication and organisation, for such a niche item.

The conjecture that it is possible that a better product at a lower price will emerge from China, is probably very real, just as a component in many 1/6 (or whatever) ARTF WW1 aircraft kits.

It would nor surprise me that Williams kits in general, will shortly be consigned to the back pages of the history books.

From experience in the past in this industry, if the order is big enough, the cost of the polymer and tooling, become almost trivial. It is the short production runs, where the costs of tooling, setting up, maintenance/refurbishment dominate the costings.

Although I have limited experience with CAD-CAM, I am not sure it saves much money with die sinking. Again from experience, solid modelling, in conjunction with CAD, should reduce dramatically, the fear, I had after designing a very complicated mould. Had I got (all) the dimensions right, the draft tapers etc? Did the tool actually mould the shape required? Particularly after my boss got a mould wrong by about 1/4", and the trouble that caused, until then i was blase, like most young men.

[flyeruk]

Well,i have put the gun together,quality of the kit leaves a lot to be desired. I have inserted a hardwood block into the bottom of the stock so that i can attach it to the Hannibal. Having said about the dodgy quality,it looks pretty good,now i have painted it. I will post some pictures of it when its mounted on the Hannibal.

[Paul Marsh]

I just done that with my gun on an old Magnatilla. I knocked the front off years ago, and found it today. Put a block in the barrel and used silicone to fill it up and give it some 'give'. Epoxy is too hard, and would fall off again.

On the Hannibal, I've made it quick-release, so after flying, put it inside the airframe.

[flyeruk]

Thanks for that Paul. Could you possably tell me how you made your,quick release system?

[flyeruk]

 

 

 

Well,i have mounted the gun on the Hannibal. I think it looks ok,not perfect but it finishes the plane of. 

 

Edited By flyeruk on 28/04/2012 20:39:34

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 29/04/2012 15:31:45

[Ernie]

Hi BEB, Sometimes, there is no choice, except for Arizona modelaircrafters, and they are really expensive..

Sorry Flyer uk, your machine gun is too small On the Fokker E111 the gun is long enough to be very close to the prop.

ernie

[Mowerman]

BEB's comments about accountants reminds me of the last company I worked at before retirement.

The R&D dept needed a lathe so the company bought a cheap Chinese one from Exchange and Mart for £400.

A month later they bought a new office chair for the MD, cost £600.

[Erfolg]

I should think so, sensible investment, their is a need to protect his brain

Tales of this type are probably endemic in the UK. I do wonder if other countries are the same?

A similar type of story is applicable to the company I worked for. The Chief Engineers, all had hydraulic Drawing Boards, with pantographs. They of course never drew a thing, mostly being used as tables. On the other hand, draughtsmen had the most basic drawing boards, the higher your grade, the more sophisticated was your board (up to CE). The reason being (as the argument), draughtsmen essentially produced out line drawings, for contractors to produce General assembly Drawings and the detail drawings. Higher grades needed to be more productive, to reduce their cost, to the project

[flyeruk]

The gun i have fitted is the williams cat no,751. This is the gun reccomended by Flair on the build plan that i have. I can see what you mean Ernie,it does look shorter than the one fitted to the Fokker E111,The gun is nearly 11 inches long. The photos of the Fokker E111 that i have looked at,the leading edge to the front of the cowl looks a lot shorter than the Hannibal. At the end of the day i suppose the Hannibal is not a scale replica of the E111.

Just had a look at other Hannibals in google images and the all seem to have the same length gun that i have, so i wont lose to much sleep over it

Edited By flyeruk on 29/04/2012 13:26:47

Edited By flyeruk on 29/04/2012 13:27:40

[Ernie]

Hi Flyer UK, I didnt mean to nit pick, I'm sure that the Hannibal has a longer nose moment than the E111 My E111 will need a ton of lead in the nose to get the CG correct. Don't loose sleep, it looks great

ernie

[Flyoz]

I agree with BEB worst plastic Kit I have ever had to work with and I have built plastic kits for over 50 years! so the tooling comments are inaccurate at best. Its just a piece of junk. All too common these days seems no one gives a hoot about reputation - just bang it out and sell it at 415 its over 10X what its worth even today. The cheapest party popper plastic kit beats this supposedly quality Williams Bros kit hands down.I threw mine out and built one from wood and perforated screen for a better effect anyway.

[Erfolg]

Wow, it is over 6 years ago that BEB started the thread. 

Even then I thought that the tooling was probably old, made in the last century. it could well be 40 years old.

I do wonder how many units are made and then sold per year. I am guessing not many. At one time I thought it would be languishing in a store room of a trade plastic moulder. Even paying rental, I suspect that most would want the tooling out, to make room for tooling going on the machines far more frequently.

Being the USA, could it be residing in an old barn, out in the sticks, anywhere else it probably would pick up storage costs. All the while deteriorating.

If not many sprues are made, and sold, the chances of considering renovation are slim. Each time it is used, the quality is almost certainly lower.

Take a leaf out of TH book, make your own.

Edited By Erfolg on 07/09/2017 18:17:12

Edited By Erfolg on 07/09/2017 18:18:04