terry westrop Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Hi all, been a while since I was inspired to join in here. To much else going unfortunately. Brian Brotherton was the CD, together with Phil Stephens, (both team members @ some point), @ my very first comp, RAF Watton, Norfolk. An extrememly breezy day! 2 blades only @ that time. Brian was so encouraging with every pilot & motivated me to go further. Brian passed away some years ago, (early 90's I think). He was so well regarded & missed by fellow members, the Newmarket MFC remember Brian with memorial days each & every year. I still have a considerable number of 3 blade props & many versions worked well. Clive Weller produced a brill example. I think it was used by his Canadian F3A friend Ivan Christianson with the most impressive results. Fortunately I resisted the temptation to try the plugin type. In later years I used the 4 blade APC on the OS 140 to reduce noise, but more importantly perhaps, to maintain that fragile rear bearing it also produced more braking effect & low rpm. As for the 'Lightning', altho' a little early for my comp venture, I did notice it was the most popular F3A UK model in those early years, in various 'forms'. So whoever 'designed' the original, did a great job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Jefferies Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Under my bench I have a big box of old props and guess what I have just found in it......... This is the 3-blader made by Clive Weller. As he made it. it was 10" diameter and it looks as though he may have made the plug from Zinger blades? And then look what I found........ I'll give you three views and then tell you who made it, though I suspect at least one forum member will recognise it. At just over 11 1/2" Dia it looks like epoxy resin reinforced with long glass strands...... the back side is reinforced with carbon fibre and most interestingly, it has Hohner (?) tips..... Moulded into the surface but too feint to show in a picture is............. "Copyright WESTROP 1986" !! Well there's a thing..... Ummm........ What goes round, comes around? PS. 'Very sorry to hear that Brian Brotherton has gone to the flying site above the clouds..... though at least he shouldn't have problems with noise restrictions up there. Edited By Paul Jefferies on 28/06/2014 13:52:42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry westrop Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Well, hello Paul. Another name I recall from way back! & I certainly do recall the prop there was a 12" version also for later, more powerfull motors. 'Vision Regal' I think were the makers/molders. This guy was well into pylon props so knew his stuff. The pylon boys put us together & we created the prop for F3A to combat the new noise reg's. The tips worked brill, hard to develop & to produce, but great for F3A of the time. 1986 indeed........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin McIntosh Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Got the dia. of the Weller props wrong but what I do remember was that if the tips were rounded as on a wing tip the noise level went up by 3dB. Squaring them off worked really well which would seem to go against all reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Jefferies Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 Martin, it was a long time ago and yes, they were all cut down........ My stuff has been in storage for years but delving into another box I have found another old Weller prop which I had cut down to 9" Dia and also a wonderous 4-blader which I made up from two Zinger 11x7.5s. As you can see they were morticed together, stuck with epoxy and tied together/reinforced with a piece of 1/32 ply back and front. It shows signs of use so it obviously hung together under load!....... I think that would have been used with my OS61VF but I'm not sure I would trust it with the OPS! Terry, your epoxy/glass/carbon prop looks as though I never got round to using it....... ie. no signs of use or even having been mounted on an engine........ Do you think it would be safe to try it 28 years on? Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry westrop Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 That 'notched together' 4 blade, dodgy! I recall many being made & numerous shedding blades! These were desperate times & there were occasions we did stuff to get under the new noise reg's that was rather less than safe I was amazed to see some being used @ silly rpm & holding up. However Paul, I would think your glass prop should be fine. They were almost indestructible. Check carefully in good light to determine if any cracks have appeared. You will need a good motor to turn it tho'. Or a very light model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn K Posted June 29, 2014 Author Share Posted June 29, 2014 Have the noise regs been relaxed or are we likely to run into the same problems resurrecting our classics? Martyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry westrop Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 Hi there Martyn. Unsure where classics fit in the bmfa 'picture'. But sensibly I'd say as long as decent props/silencers/pipes are used problems should not arise. I do have a new HB 61 with the open 'venturi' silencer. I used one of these motors in my Kingpin back in the late 70's & it was voted by all, extremely noisy....tho quite powerful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Cotsford Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I think I remember those venturi 'silencers' but I was sure mine came on a HP60, in fact I may still have one kicking around. Mine came with a domed washer blanking the front but that fell out as soon as the engine started - what a howl it let loose! Lots of revs but absolutely deafening. Edited By Bob Cotsford on 30/06/2014 10:19:26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Dunning Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Even 'sports' engines today are designed to run at lower revs. The main factor was to ensure that engines were running at 10000 rpm or less to make the noise 'acceptable'. Simple flexible mounts, such as Rawlnuts as on Sam's Magic are effective at reducing noise. Coupled to a pipe system 'tuned' to that rpm area and you have an effective noise reduction system. In addition, APC propellers were not available then and these too have helped in suppressing noise. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Jefferies Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 "That 'notched together' 4 blade, dodgy!" Yes, looking at it now I am somewhat horrified to think that I did that! But still....... I did use it and it didn't fly apart! I don't remember how much it reduced the noise though. As for the glass/carbon prop, I have had a good look at it with a magnifying glass and there are no signs of cracks in the resin though there are a few bubbles near the hub but I guess they have been there since it was made. My trusty OPS is not short of grunt and I think it should be able to cope with this prop but I also have an OPS which was specially ported for high torque at lower revs which came from Ken Binks and had been given to him to try out. Thus far I have never run it but this looks like a good excuse for upsetting the neighbours! Incidentally....... Does anyone know where you can get that silicone pipe we used to use for connecting a tuned pipe to a manifold? Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Dunning Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 What diameter Paul 20mm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Jefferies Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I couldn't find it on the Inwoods website......... Steve, I think 20mm ID would be a bit too big. My various pipes seem to be around 19mm or slightly less and the silicone is fairly soft/expandable so it needs to be a little less than that. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangar 9 nut Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Just Engines do a good range! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Jefferies Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Thanks H9n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry westrop Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Hmm.....my most recent experience with just engines was not good! So beware buying stuff via post from them. I purchased a super silencer from them. Another pilot bought the same item, same time.....it was significantly different & performed better! When I emailed the company they denied knowledge of any differences. Quite extraordinary! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Jefferies Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Terry, thanks for the warning but problem solved as Steve D is sending me some . On another tack...... We had a Club "Fly in"+ BBQ last night and one of the guys, who I had not met before, turned up with a fairly elderly "Loaded Dice II". He had bought it second/third hand some time ago and put a very different engine in it which didn't fit the cowl, in fact the whole front end looked a bit of a mess but it seemed to fly very nicely and he flew it well........ It really looked good in the air. 'Nice model. 'Thinks..... I wonder if plans are still available? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry westrop Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Glad Steve has sorted you out Paul. I guess there are still a few LD's out there, good old balsa+foam tends to be more durable than the current materials being used on the ultra-lite comparables. I am surprised the cowl is still intact, most have long since been discarded, especially if numerous motors have been installed by a variety of owners. Nice to know the pilot could fly the model well. Amazing how an old, tatty but straight model can still perform well. I think RCM&E still do the plans. I believe Punctilio could still do the cowl+canopy. Steve would possibly do a nice wing+stab.....but it's not classic, yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Green Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Just found these out from the 80's Dave Smith Models Dalotel Plan built Challenger. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie sawyer Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Posted by terry westrop on 02/07/2014 23:26:10: Hmm.....my most recent experience with just engines was not good! So beware buying stuff via post from them. I purchased a super silencer from them. Another pilot bought the same item, same time.....it was significantly different & performed better! When I emailed the company they denied knowledge of any differences. Quite extraordinary! I just got stuff from Just engines last week and personally I'd go back again and again. There service is very friendly and the postage to the highlands was 24 hours!! I got it the next day basically. Very impressed and would recommend them to anyone.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn K Posted July 23, 2014 Author Share Posted July 23, 2014 That Challenger is pretty bright Andy.. Was it yours? Looks nicely finished. Just Engines. I have found their manifold service to be excellent. I have also bought a couple of bits and pieces off them as well. No problems. M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond Geezer Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 any one got plans for a joker 60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masher Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Also, does anyone know anything about a Dave Smith Models Innovation (or 2nd Innovation)? I have one which flies nicely but needs a complete refurb but hoping to find out some information about it first. I think it was built in the '80's Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minty morton Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Just got my repaired pacemaker back from Mr dunning and what a superb job he has made (as usual). I don't know how to post a photo but perhaps if he sees this he will do it for me (creap creap) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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