Do you think i should have to pay for this ?

[Lee Smalley]

Ok, i applied an official firmware update to my 11X zero tx after carefully checking my tx was suitable, i followed the JR instructions to the letter and everything seemed to be going well, the update proceeded and then the tx shut down as it was supposed to, upon turning back on i got nothing ... nowt ...zada.....zip, dead as a dodo. i sent the unit back to macgregor and it has been insinuated that as it is out of warranty i will have to pay for the repair, not that they know what it is and it may have to go back to japan, brilliant! i am without my only tx for god only knows how long. i have been a faithful fan of JR for over 20 years, and i am not chuffed the UK distributor cannot repair it and are saying i may have to pay for it!! is it any surprise Spektrum with the brilliant service centre of horizon hobbies uk are wiping the floor with everyone!! would you pay for it ???

[Lee Smalley]

ps my tx is about 2 years old

[Slopetrashuk]

Yes of course you should pay for it. Its punishment for not listening to me about MacGregor. Cough up fatty.

Edited By Slopetrashuk on 15/04/2013 16:14:01

[David Ashby - Moderator]

No, I'd be aggreived too Lee, you have my sympathies there. I assume whatever it is, MacGregor's haven't come across before? 

 

Edited By David Ashby - RCME on 15/04/2013 16:40:25

[Alan Randall]

I would say no if it is their firmware download that did it. I had a similar problem with a TomTom download, but TomTom sorted a fix for me which I had to down load.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I wouldn't expect to pay for a repair/replacement during this time. Jeti, for one, gives a 2 year warranty so this could be quoted as a minimum reasonable service expectation for a quality manufacturer - and longer if you can support that expectation.

Unfortunately you do need to give the supplier time and opportunity to rectify the problem.

[Lee Smalley]

I agree that we do need to give them time bit the thing that has marked me is that no one will make a decision for another. Week until the MD comes back from holiday!!!!! So it is gonna sit there for another week before a decision, i have never heard anything like it before, yes David it certainly sounds like they have never come across this before! No flying for me for god knows how long limbo comp on Sunday as well

[Pete B]

Assuming you're bomb-proof with carrying out the update, I'd enquire at your local Trading Standards office and let MacGregor know that you're doing so. Under EU law, I understand that electrical goods (and yours isn't a cheapie) should have a reasonable life expectancy, not just up to the warranty date.

Pete

[Lee Smalley]

That's a good idea Pete if i don't get a favourable response next week i will do just that

[Rich too]

You have to love technology, something works perfectly fine but you have to update the software anyway. Our JEEP broke down and went into limp mode, it would not drive over 30 mph - the solution? Nothing more than a software upgrade - and a bill for £170. Call me synical but we had not had the servicing done by JEEP for a year or so........

Edited By Dickster on 15/04/2013 20:18:51

Edited By Dickster on 15/04/2013 20:19:53

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Pete makes a good point......wasn't there something about goods should be OK up to 6 years from date of purchase?

Since it appears that it was the update wot dunnit I don't see why you should have to cough up for that....

Its not something silly like a fuse blowing or something is it? Guess its hard to know whilst MacGregor have got it.....

[Simon Chambers]

Firmware updates make any Firmware engineer cringe. My old manager used to say that it's like sawing the branch off while standing on it...

The problem is that the microcontroller that needs reprogramming, needs to run program code to do so. So as its writing the program code, it has to be very careful that it doesn't write over the program code that is doing the writing. If it does, you end up getting a situation that is known in the industry as bricking it. Why? Well it's as useful as a brick!

The only way around it is to use a production programmer which is usually used in the factory to put the first program code on the device. I'm surprised that MacGregor doesn't have this facility in the UK. I can only guess that JR is super paranoid (don't blame them in this day and age) that they may get their firmware nicked and cheap clones made.

When you do a firmware update using the PC software it sends it over encrypted and the transmitter decrypts it. However the production programmer can't send it encrypted (as the chip is blank with no encryption facility), so thus it sends it unencrypted and thus risks it falling into the wrong hands.

Personally if they have said that its safe to flash the firmware, then I would say they're liable! Of course you can use the old chestnut that it's not fit for purpose and/or hasn't last a reasonable time frame (the year standard warranty I can't see being a reasonable time). However remember that the contract is with the company (Model Shop) you bought it from - not MacGregor. So you will have to take it up with them.

In my opinion, I think its a very poor show if they don't honour fixing it for free - considering you used their tools to do it.

Si.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Si - I'd agree totally with your excellent post but I'd wonder that in this case, if the firmware was supplied by the manufacturer then it (and by extension, it's UK representative) rather than the original supplier of the transmitter, would bear liability?

Obviously, a physical failure not connected to the firmware upgrade would revert the liability to the original retailer under trading laws in this country.

Edited By Martin Harris on 16/04/2013 00:08:26

[Simon Chambers]

Posted by Martin Harris on 16/04/2013 00:06:06:

Si - I'd agree totally with your excellent post but I'd wonder that in this case, if the firmware was supplied by the manufacturer then it (and by extension, it's UK representative) rather than the original supplier of the transmitter, would bear liability?

True I can see the sense in that. All I know is that usually the contract of purchase of the goods is with the seller you bought it from. However if by using the manufacturers (free) tools has broken it, the liability may shift - as your using the tools supplied directly by them, rather than what was supplied by the original seller. Now the installer may have terms that try and say that they are not responsible for any problems and/or damage caused by using them (which may or may not even be legally enforceable). 

But I'm not a lawyer so its past my knowledge base! Probably worth a quick call to your local CAB.

Si.

Edited By Simon Chambers on 16/04/2013 00:15:01

[Dean B]

Unless there is a very good reason for upgrading the firmware I would leave it well alone if it works the way it should. dont just do it because its there.

[SkippyUK]

I don't know how the Macgreger software updates work but the Spektrum updates are supposed to be serial number coded when you download them and cannot be used in any other TX.

This, according to Spektrum, is so that the code matches the actual hardware in your TX but I don't know if anybody has tried using the download on a different TX.

This serial number thing might just be to stop download into a fake TX's of course!.

When you say " i applied an official firmware update to my 11X zero tx after carefully checking my tx was suitable", was the update specific to your TX serial number or just 11X's in general?.

If I was to have trouble with an update that was specifically designed for my TX serial number then I would think the case was stronger that the supplier of the update was liable as long as the instructins were followed - on a Spektrum it's basically just put the update on the SD card, put it in the TX and power up......

The integrity of the update code is checked before flashing using standard checksum techniques as well as the serial number (if it's true and not a red herring!).

For us non-Macgreger bods, how does the update system work?

Skippy

[Lee Smalley]

Cheers guys for responses the update was for a specific model version of my tx that's why i checked carefully serial numbers are not used

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I think you have a case here Lee, and I'd be quite firm about it if I were you - this is an expensive piece of kit. I would be considering the following course of action; inform MacGregor that unless they:

1. give an undertaking to fix free of charge, if indeed the fault was caused by the update and is not simply a coincidental other fault.

2. process and investigate immediately

then you intend to take formal action via Trading Standards. Their boss being on holiday is not a legitmate excuse in my opinion for inaction. They have taken on the franchise of being JR's distributor in this country - I feel that if they cannot fullfill the full commitment that requires then they shouldn't be doing the job. Its one thing to cut a "one man business" a bit of slack on that basis - but not a national distributer of a major name brand.

It really would be, in my view, an unacceptable situation if a national distributor does not have the facilities to fix and repair a fault such as this. One would have to ask the question as to wether JR have the appropriate level of local product support in place.

I had a similar experience to Alan above when my TomTom Sat Nav went duff after an update. But the distributor took immediate responsibility there - return to them and they sent it back all working and updated in a few days - and no charge.

I wouldn't honestly bother with CAB - I think this is too technical a problem for them - I'd go straight to Trading Standards who will - at national level at least - have expertise they can pull on for advice on in this kind of area. TBH - the treat of Trading Standards involvement is enough to make a lot of companies see sense and accept their responsibilities.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 16/04/2013 10:35:58

[Simon Chambers]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 16/04/2013 10:33:36:

I wouldn't honestly bother with CAB - I think this is too technical a problem for them - I'd go straight to Trading Standards who will - at national level at least - have expertise they can pull on for advice on in this kind of area. TBH - the treat of Trading Standards involvement is enough to make a lot of companies see sense and accept their responsibilities.

I think you'll find that Trading Standards will pass you off to the CAB first.

I would say its fairly straight forward to put it to the CAB. For example, "I updated my model flying remote control software, with the manufacturer approved software tools and it broke...". Whether its updating your iPhone or your Freeview box software, its a fairly common thing that people do now, so I would be surprised if the CAB didn't understand.

The other thing worth mentioning is that the MacGregor site links to the JR site for software updates. Thus I would personally take that as they approve the download of those updates.

If MacGregor don't have the facility to reprogram the firmware back into the transmitter, the only other course of action (apart from sending it back to Japan) is to replace the main processor board. Not unreasonable, considering they probably do that on warranty repair jobs anyway.

It may be worth emailing JR in Japan directly if they have any resolutions to fix it. They either may have a special way of getting it back into firmware update mode (that you can do) or they may be able to put pressure on (or suggestions on how to fix it for) MacGregor to fix it.

Just also worth mentioning, as no-one else have, if you didn't back up your model memories they will now almost certainly be lost now.

Si.

Edited By Simon Chambers on 16/04/2013 11:20:54

[kc]

I would say contact Trading Standards locally FIRST before Mcgregor give their verdict. If you let McG know what Trading Standards think before they decide it might just turn the balance and get a favourable outcome without lots of legal stuff.

You could also ask the Consumers Association / Which? for their opinion about liability when updating software and product life, again if their advice is in your favour let McG know right away. Maybe Consumers Association would say that you should be offered a loan Tx by McG ( as in hire cars whilst your is being repaired ) when a manufacturer is liable.

Finally put your claim in writing to McG insisting on a replacement Tx immediately whilst yours is being sorted- it surely would be the best advert for JR if they just replaced it. If they dont it will be the worst advert and many of us will be biased against JR

[Lee Smalley]

lots of food for thought there guy all very good stuff, after that lot i will be contacting my local trading standards to at least get their opinion or get the ball rolling, i have emailed JR in japan, which was really hard to get an email for!! but i agree contacting my trading standards branch can not do any harm, i will also inquire about a loan tx if this is going to be a long delay !!

[kc]

Don't forget to tell all your clubmates why you cannot compete in this weeks compettion.......it would be fairly surprising if someone didnt offer you the loan of a compatible Tx or a Rx & Tx......

[Stephen Grigg]

Sorry to here of your problems Lee,I cant do computer stuff much good thing really

[TigerOC]

Some technical stuff to better understand this.

I have over many years worked with computer hardware and software. Some basics on this; the basic code that drives these devices is held in a chip called the ROM (Read Only Memory). This holds the basic instruction code for the device to operate. When the system boots up all the instructions come from the ROM. The system boots up in layers until the actual operating system takes control.

There has always been a base rule in the computer World that one must always ask before embarking on re-coding the ROM; is it necessary? Will the update correct a serious fault in the device that could or would make the device more secure. Since the year dot in computing, flashing the ROM can be very dangerous. One of the big fears is that any glitch in the power supply during the process or duff data on the upgrade media could screw the update and turn the device into a brick.

Personally I have only done it once. Some years ago a favourite motherboard manufacturer brought in flash updates via the net. I would never contemplate this at all. In the Linux World we use an algorithm called md5sum to check the contents of downloaded programs to ensure the data received is 100% correct. The programmers issue the md5sum check code for this purpose.

 

So in summary a glitch could have occurred during the write process due the power or corrupt data. In the computer World flashing is an "own risk" operation. Updates are an after sales service as the firmware is sold as seen on delivery and believed to be fit for purpose at time of delivery. Bricking the device on flash upgrade is the responsibility of the owner. The manufacturers do make this very clear. Personally because of the inherent danger I have always opted for the safe option of "if ain't broke, don't fix it". Enhancements are always there and buying a new mainboard is common every couple of years anyway.

The problem you now face is that the ROM is now inaccessible and would have to be replaced by a good ROM or new mainboard. It is unlikely that the agent has the facilities to do this so this would entail return to the manufacturer. You need to check to small print as to the liability for flash failure.

ps I noticed this in regards to model upgrade on the JR;

NOTICE:
The 11X software update is only compatible with the JR 11X radio distributed through Horizon Hobby Inc.
DO NOT
attempt to install this software in the 11X Zero sold through JR Propo and their other distributors. Doing so may cause a non-recoverable software error that will require a costly repair.

*Link*

Edited By Pete B - Moderator on 17/04/2013 07:07:13

[SkippyUK]

After reading the above update doc posted by TigerOC, I'm kinda glad that the Spekkie way of coding the software to the serial number makes it less likely t install the wrong software.

Never had a problem with DX8 updates yet (touching every bit of wood about!).

Thought an expensive system like 11X should not have these potential issues.

Skippy