Voting Chat Thread

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

OK guys, I'd like your thoughts on an "in principle" question.

The way the voting is going at the moment there is a close group at the top then a gap to "the rest".

Now I originally said, quite arbitarily to be honest, that we'd take 6 through to the short list. But is there any support for the idea that if this situation of having a clear leading group continues then we just take that group to the shortlist irrespective of its size? So, if 3 models are out in front we have a short list of 3; if 7 are out in front together we have a shortlist of 7.

If we don't do this I fear we will have one of two problems: either we will end up taking some models through that have comparatively few points just in order to make up the six. Or, even worse, we will chop a model out of the short list simply because it is 7th, even though it might have only 1 or 2 points less than the model ahead of it in the magic sixth place!

So, looking for the first natural gap as it were might be fairer and more efficient.

What do you think?

BEB

[kevin b]

Hi BEB.

Are you going to use the same system for the short list, or one modeller, one vote for one model ?

If you have only 3 choices the latter would seem the best, but if the short list is 6 or more, then to use the same system as before would probably be better.

I agree that if there is a considerable gap at some point then that would be a sensible place to split them.

kevinb.      Democracy in action.

Edited By kevin b on 05/10/2013 23:00:19

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Well Kevin - we can discuss it of course, but I was intending "one member one vote".

Another thought then would be, if we had one member one vote and no clear winner emerged - say there was still two or three very even - well we could even decide to do the group of them!

Its really for us to decide what ever makes the largest group happy but maintains some sense of a "shared group activity" really!

BEB

[Concorde Speedbird]

Just choose the one with the most votes?! I purposely did not vote since I can't take part, so I did not want to intrude.

CS

[Colin Leighfield]

I think you should do that BEB. You might be scratching your head if you then finish up with a top two or three that are very close, in effect with the combined votes of two and three being considerably more than number one. Not sure if that makes it more interesting or more difficult. But then you might get a clear winner, who knows?

There's only one way to find out.

[TheFlyingCrust]

I agree - if there is a leading group there's little point being too rigid with the group size.

One member one vote is simple. But. What if you don't have a clear majority? Drop the lowest and vote again until there is one model with over 50%? Or as you suggest just have a choice of the top 2 or 3. Hmmmm. I'll go with that as a fair compromise.

Ian

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Concorde Speedbird on 05/10/2013 23:17:40:

Just choose the one with the most votes?! I purposely did not vote since I can't take part, so I did not want to intrude.

CS

A good question CSB. Your idea to simply take the one with the most votes is fine, provided one model has a clear majority in the second round - with over 50% of the votes.

But what if the second round was very close and let's say two models were fighting it out at the top? Very exciting yes, but it gives us a problem. Suppose they had perhaps 36% and 35% of the vote each (just an example). Now what do we do?

Seems a bit hard on the model in second place if we declare the one in first place the sole winner when it only has just over one third support.

But between them they have 71% - a clear commanding position.

So what I'm saying is, in the interests of maximising the number of people getting involved, maybe we should allow a flexible length shortlist and the possibility of more than one winner in the event of a very close vote in the final round.

These are really just ideas for us to kick around at this stage.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 06/10/2013 00:41:57

[Devcon1]

I'd suggest sticking to original format with the top 6 going through regardless, then proceed with a 1 model one vote only final vote.

[Devcon1]

Sorry forgot to add, whichever model is chosen and suppose it doesn't suit everyone I'd say go ahead and build whatever you want and go and fly at Greenacres and even do a runners up build blog, it's only a hobby..

[Colin Leighfield]

I suppose the advantage of going for more than one design is that you are likely to get more people participating. Although a choice from say two is a less "pure" approach, perhaps the numbers having a go is more important? I appreciate that being completely flexible on choice starts to defeat the object, but two might be a good compromise, as long as they are not too similar.

Perhaps the best way to do it is as suggested by "saved by the ground" (me too)! and if there is a run-away winner that's it, but if the top two are within 10% of each other, offer both.

[kevin b]

Good idea. As I mentioned earlier, there do seem to be two disimilar sections to the voters and the prriority is to have as many building as possible. At the end there is no competition, so there will be no judging. As long as the choice of model is fairly restricted, then the build blogs can run in parallel.

Another thought is that having possibly two models would highlight different build issues for those of us who are not profficient builders.

kevinb.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Colin Leighfield on 06/10/2013 08:54:18:

I suppose the advantage of going for more than one design is that you are likely to get more people participating. Although a choice from say two is a less "pure" approach, perhaps the numbers having a go is more important? I appreciate that being completely flexible on choice starts to defeat the object, but two might be a good compromise, as long as they are not too similar.

Perhaps the best way to do it is as suggested by "saved by the ground" (me too)! and if there is a run-away winner that's it, but if the top two are within 10% of each other, offer both.

I think this is sensible option. The idea is to get the largest number of people building possible whilst at the same time maintaining some feeling of a "group activity" - a shared experience. Its a tricky balance.

Personally I'd be a bit unsure about declaring a model "the winner" that only had say 30% of the total vote. It would mean that 70% of the folks that have been through this process of nominations, first round eliminators and second round voting didn't vote for this model - that can't be good for participation can it?

So, how about:

1. Don't have a fixed length shortlist - instead look for a clear break in the voting somewhere in the first 2-8 or so and then set the shortlist there.

2. Have second round voting on a "one member one vote" basis. If one model has a clear majority (over 50% of the vote) then that's it - job done its "the winner". If not, we look at expanding the "winning list" to get a decisive majority by including the second or even the third choice model.

An interesting observation here is that, as someone has remarked, there does seem to be a slight element of "two camps" with one going for the "traditional build" type model and the other going for more modern "fun flyer" types - often kits rather than plans. If we don't have a decisive winner and do decide to "expand" the winning list, it might offer the opportunity to keep both camps happy by including at least one of each type? Just a thought.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 06/10/2013 18:27:55

[John Roberts 9]

I wouldn't stick rigidly to the top 6 going through to the next stage.

If there are, say, 3 contenders that each got a decent percentage of the vote and the rest have comparatively few votes then we should go forward with just the top 3. As BEB points out, the figure of 6 was chosen arbitrarily.

For the next round of voting I am inclined to go for a 'first past the post' wins but I would be very happy to compromise and have 2 choices if we ended up with 2 models being closely matched in terms of final votes cast. I think this approach may well encourage a greater number of people to participate. Speaking personally, if an "oldie" (TM kevin b ) model won I would be less inclined to participate but if I had an option to do an "aerobat" instead then I almost certainly will have a go and I am sure that vice versa applies to quite a few other potential participants.

Cheers,

John

[Colin Leighfield]

I think we are beginning to see a direction shaping up here!

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Indeed!

BEB

[Bearair]

WHAT! we are going to go for a sensible, realistic and practical solution which will mean that most people will be building the model they like. No "i would of been involved but the wrong model was chosen" or conspiracy theories over how the voting was rigged or how the judges swayed the choice. just a couple of groups happily building and flying models! Where's the fun in that?

[kc]

One man one vote.
If it's not decisive then revote.

Or you could have a coalition and struggle on.....

Really we could all build whatever we want so the only reason to have a common model is to get so much info on one model that lots of new builders join in. All the fiddly decisions and tricky parts have already been done so the newcomers just follow. ( or they do there own thing and learn by bitter experience like the rest of us did in the pre forum past )

Edited By kc on 06/10/2013 19:08:57

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

OK folks, voting is moving a long - but if you want to vote could you please do so soon as we will need to bring this first round to a close by the end of this week or so.

Interim result:

According to the latest count, acording to Mr Bott's wonder spreadsheet thingy the top six at this stage are:

1. Tinker/Tyro - 67 points
2. Barnstormer - 63 points
3. Dawn Flyer - 60 points
4. Mini Jazz - 51 points
5. Pushy Cat - 37 points
6. Swamp Rat - 33 points

Pretty close at the top and its all still to play for, those four have been swopping positions, and it's far from over yet!

So, get voting and push your choice up the list as we move towards the end of this elimination round!

Remember - you can view all the nominated models here.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 07/10/2013 09:41:14

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 07/10/2013 09:51:53

[Mark Stringer]

Wow - my spreadsheet is way out then!! Will have to double check where i went wrong

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Mark I've just checked one model in mine and found a mistake. Well, a member edited his choices after I made note of them. (I shouldn't have been so keen maybe?).

It doesn't make any difference to the models in the top 6.

So, when I have more time, more checking will go on, then I'll repost the top 6.

Cheers
Chris

[Mark Stringer]

Chris - no worries - i have probably got one of my formulas wrong anyway!

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

OK - checks done! As Chris said we've being doing a running total as we went along - but one member caught us out by editing his vote and changing four of his choices! Which of course he was quite entitled to do - but it did catch us on the hop!

While there is no change in the top 6 models - it does make it even tighter!

1. Barnstormer and Tinker/Tyro (Joint) with 63 points each!

3. Dawn Flyer - 60 points

4. Mini Jazz - 51 points

5. Pushy Cat - 36 points

6. Swamp Rat - 34 points.

So there we have it so far - very close.

BEB

PS We do have two members running independent checks for us as well - so we should pick up any errors very quickly.

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 07/10/2013 12:57:13

[Mark Stringer]

Great stuff - my spread sheet was spot on then!

[Erfolg]

Mark, your spreadsheet was not the only one with the wrong number. In my case, I wrongly assumed one point each, rather than the graduated system used.

I guess the next stage takes the same voting format? With this format, it will allow me to think of how to write the cell arguments to record the values. This process will be fun in itself.

[Bearair]

No need to assume, just read the post's all the information is there. Just as it was stated twice once in a post directed specifically at you how the first round voting would be recorded!!!!!!!!