Voting Chat Thread

[Martin McIntosh]

As always Dave, would not have it any other way! Just trying to be practical about it. Not trying to be `Ratty`, (probably will be the winner).

[Bearair]

Well i have decided that my re kindled enthusiasm for power flying and looking through my rose tinted sunglasses means i'm ordering a Tinker plan. Found THIS while perusing the web, enjoy the old underpowered, overweight DB Tinker stooging around the sky!

Edited By Bearair on 02/10/2013 11:40:54

[kc]

Well I must agree with Gary Vinten that the Swamp Rat is the ideal candidate for the Mass Build. All Gary's points are spot on and there is the great extra advantage over the Rat out of Hell that the published plan has been built from and proven already. That means the errors, and there are always some, have already been found and noted. This is very important so that everyone, especially beginners, can proceed straight away.
Both ic and electric versions of the Swamp Rat have already been flown and details of the differences are online here.

My view is that the Rat out of Hell might be suitable for next years subject but is not at the right stage yet. It would be nice to see it published and built by a few people before we nominate it for build novices. It surely deserves a chance of publication in a magazine before PDF plans are everywhere.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I would agree with a lot of that analysis kc. The Rat of Hell may well prove to be a good Mass Build model - but I'm not sure its for this Mass Build for all the reasons you so eloquently lay out.

Where we would would differ slightly is that while I agree the Swamp Rat is a strong candidate and a real possibility, I don't think its such an open and shut case. I think there are others that offer at least as much. For example, for me, the Tyro/Tinker combination still takes some beating!

BEB

Edited to insert an all important missing "not"

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 02/10/2013 15:39:53

[kc]

BEB, did you really mean " I am NOT sure it's for this Mass Build"

or was it correct as printed?

[Mike Hardy]

OMG this time again! Still building the Tucano!! I hope the next one chosen is allied to a few construction tutorials as well. I found the Tucano project a very large 'step up' for a novice, although a lot of help was to be had from this forum.

Mike.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by kc on 02/10/2013 14:47:10:
BEB, did you really mean " I am NOT sure it's for this Mass Build"

or was it correct as printed?

Doh! Yes I meant "I am NOT sure it's for this Mass Build" More hurry, less speed! Thanks KC for pointingt that out.

I've edited it to make it correct - the wonders of "mod power"!

BEB

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Mike Hardy on 02/10/2013 15:33:08:

OMG this time again! Still building the Tucano!! I hope the next one chosen is allied to a few construction tutorials as well. I found the Tucano project a very large 'step up' for a novice, although a lot of help was to be had from this forum.

Mike.

Hi Mike,

yes this time we will be trying to repeat the experience of the Webbit when there were a lot more build blogs by experienced and less experienced builders. The whole thing was a much more "shared" experience.

I think that for the Tucano there were comparatively fewer blogs and those that there were, like Phil's and mine, tended to come out quite late in the process because we had other building commitments to finish off - in Phil's case his shed! Obviously we can't force people to do a detailled blog - but we can "encourage" them.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 02/10/2013 15:45:14

[Mark Stringer]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 02/10/2013 15:38:44:

Posted by kc on 02/10/2013 14:47:10:
BEB, did you really mean " I am NOT sure it's for this Mass Build"

or was it correct as printed?

Doh! Yes I meant "I am NOT sure it's for this Mass Build" More hurry, less speed! Thanks KC for pointingt that out.

I've edited it to make it correct - the wonders of "mod power"!

BEB

kc / BEB - Part of the Mass Build is everyone learning together - I did sell a reasonable amount of kits when ratby was in full swing and I never had a single phone call to ask for assistance (or complaint) and with Rich doing the plans I am sure it will be OK

I do also hope to have someone do a quick build on it as soon as the plans are done so that they and the build instructions are double checked before final release.

Also happy for it to be published in RCM&E if it is best done that way - but no one has asked as yet

I wasn't looking for anything out of this - just happy to put my design out there for people to enjoy and hence the offer of the plans in PDF (which also makes it simple to scale to what ever size people want one - I will be doing a half sized electric one and did fly a prototype full size "Cell Rat" on a Team gear brushed electric setup) as well as the build instructions in Word or what ever format is best for everyone.

And then there was the "Rat off the hill" - swap the engine for some lead and throw it off your favorite slope - very flexible

Edited By Mark Stringer on 02/10/2013 16:10:01

[Erfolg]

I have done a quick check of the voting, up to, Rentman. There appears to be two front runners at present, The Barnstormer on 15 for the older nostalgia modeller and the Swamp Rat on 12, for the young, trendy guy about town.

The results are not spot on, as the total number of votes should be divisible by 5, I am at least one out.

I have a spread sheet of all the votes, which will not paste as apparently to many characters. Is there a way to do it?

[Bearair]

Posted by Erfolg on 02/10/2013 17:34:46:

I have done a quick check of the voting, up to, Rentman. There appears to be two front runners at present, The Barnstormer on 15 for the older nostalgia modeller and the Swamp Rat on 12, for the young, trendy guy about town.

The results are not spot on, as the total number of votes should be divisible by 5, I am at least one out.

I have a spread sheet of all the votes, which will not paste as apparently to many characters. Is there a way to do it?

Did you read in BEBs first post how the scores are accumulated?

[kc]

Erfolg, I have just built a Swamp Rat and I completely deny I am either young or a trendy guy about town! I doubt the designer Peter Miller would describe himself like that either.......so Swamp Rat is a model for anyone.
It's somewhat simpler than a Barnstormer due to the lack of cabane struts.

Edited By kc on 02/10/2013 18:54:27

[Erfolg]

Beariar

I am not certain I am getting all the posts, related to this thread, so some things are probably passing me by.

One I certainly had not seen is the Pushy Cat post. I certainly was unaware of the conventional tractor version, which is the one which is being put forward. Which is a relieve, as there was a beautifully built VS version in the club. I watched attempts over some months to get it to fly. I longed to get my hands on it, as I do often enjoy something which is awkward. Unfortunately it was so significantly damaged, with the owner so upset, I dare not ask the owner for the bits. Just in case I did succeed and come across as a clever dick, trying to show how it should be done, when the owner was far more experienced with that type of model, and was properly peed off.

I had noted a few anomalies in voting, such as voting more than once. I guess by accident. In some way I suspect you see a gross error in the summation I have made, which is entirely possible, it being a bit more involved/ boring to itemise each model and count the votes. Yet looking at the numbers again briefly there appears to be two distinct models which are well ahead of the others, I think, Although I think that there has been 39 block (5 off) votes, which gives 195 individual votes, which indicates that some, I have lost some  36 individual votes is it these that make a significant difference?

At the moment I have just lived with the issue as there appears to be some way to go in voting.

Out of curiosity which models do you think are in the lead?

Edited By Erfolg on 02/10/2013 21:17:10

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Erfolg the voting numbers are being tracked, weighted and totted up as they come in. We've decided that revealing a running total might steer further votes, so at the moment we're not intending to reveal results.

However, all the numbers are there for anyone who is interested enough to tot them up. It's really not difficult to produce a spreadsheet that will tot up not only the results, but will display the number of votes cast by any one person, and can be sorted by result on points, or by number of people voting for each model etc etc.

I make it 38 people have voted. One person has voted for models that weren't in the list, and one has voted for the same model 5 times. The top 6 models have 55, 41, 39, 36, 31 and 30 points respectively. Ranking by points and ranking by the number of folk who have included a model in their 5, both produce very similar results.

 

Edited By Chris Bott - Moderator on 02/10/2013 21:56:19

[Erfolg]

KC

It was a bit of banter, not really suggesting anything, I was looking for a response to garner an understanding of what the voters are influenced by.

In the case of DB, I think it is reasonable to suggest that the proportions of his designs, all had conventional proportions. The kits in particular had more than a little consideration to optimise the kitting process. The structures all balancing ruggedness, ease of construction and weight. All in all, a good blend of the practical, economics, aesthetics and cost. I can appreciate that many old school modellers (not necessarily old) also appreciate, that DB designs, his otherpublished designs would often contain details which enabled experienced modellers to demonstrate their skills. I do think TH is in some respects similar, in that Tim does have an emphasis on technique, where builders can demonstrate their skills, whilst maintaining all the functional aspects.

In the case of PM, the emphasis is very much on the home plan builder. The constructional influences from the days of CL are there. The ply reenforcements to the front od bodies etc. Yet the the unitary influences of the 60s can also be felt. There is an almost optimised process approach to wing building and bodies. Everything stripped to the bare essentials for the home builder. Not overly reliant on having, jig saws and production workshop equipment. The designs making use of simple hand tools in the main. The model designs are almost "Bau Haus", the less is more approach.

Again the Eric Clutton designs are also examples of optimisation of the simple form, coupled with the incorporation of minimisation, to achieve exceptional bounce ability. Unfortunately in my opinion, totally optimised to SC flight and operation. Certainly would work, with redesigned downthrust/side thrust and redefined control surfaces for light weight multi gear.

I am sure that the other designs and their designers have their own virtues. Although, I will say, some I just do not get.

So how do the rest of you see the designs you favour, these are my opinions, right or wrong

 

Edited By Erfolg on 02/10/2013 22:01:46

[jeff2wings]

KC, I don’t think bending up a strip of aluminium any more difficult than bending up a piano wire u/c on something like a ....umm , swamp rat ??

As for the Gordon Meilish skybird (sorry about the mix up ) it met all the requirements for the mass build ,i.e.: not too big ,simple but robust balsa (or foam wing ) construction i.c OR e.p. with plenty of scope for “ personalisation “ shoulder wing or low wing ,semi or fully symmetrical wing section ,mild to wild only problem it’s not in the Hobbystore plans list and I don’t think it ever was ,unlike some of the other free plans ,ho hum, the Skybird 40 is a updated bigger version but perhaps is not as appealing as the original smaller one.

It also appears that a good number of the suggestions are based on (very ) personal interest , not the main objective of the mass build that BEB has spelt on several occasions in this thread , I mean , a P- 51 ? REALY ? and the Jabberwock two wings ,round cowl , glazed cabin just the thing for a inexperienced builder , if you realy want to build one then just do it (personally always thought it looked like a garden shed with a couple of wings nailed on, but that’s just me ! )

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

"a garden shed with a couple of wings nailed on".... many of my best models would fall into that description!

BEB

[David Davis]

Just a couple of lines about novice builders. If you go back to the early 70's when reliable, affordable, proportional radios first became available, most people learned to fly with something like a Super 60; the Barnstormer was a popular second model. The point is that both of these models had to be built and if you didn't already know how to build, through having previously built free flight and/or control line models for example, then someone, either a relative or a clubmate had to teach you. Neither model was difficult to build but of course they took much longer to get into flight-ready condition than a modern ARTF model.

Spool on forty odd years and many younger fliers have only assembled ARTF models so would find a Barnstormer, or similar model, a bit daunting at first sight but with help and encouragement from clubmates and fellow forumites, well make modellers of them yet!

BTW, I did not nominate the Telemaster, despite its suitability for the mass build, because I didn't want to be accused of unwarranted self promotion.

[Bearair]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 02/10/2013 22:51:49:

"a garden shed with a couple of wings nailed on".... many of my best models would fall into that description!

BEB

 

Seeing as some are getting all arty and "Bau Haus" maybe you could enter for the Turner prize with shedplaneshed!

Maybe not, I will get my coat!

Erfolg, on the DB issue,

I was merely trying to point out that DB is a current company, working hard to keep traditional kit building alive. As i pointed out I would be sad to think you are giving less experience modellers the impression that DB designs are "just for devotee's" there not. ( I have no connection with DB models)

On the Maths issue,

Wow you've lost me mate! Stupidly all I did was read what BEB had put "

You have up to five votes. List your choices 1 to 5. Your first choice will be awarded 5 points, your second choice 4 points and so on. Do not list the points - we will do that. Just list your choices starting with your number one, then number two etc.

Once everyone has voted we will add up the points for all of the nominated models. The first 6 will go through to the second round voting to select the final winner."

I then went through the voting giving points accordingly and discarding double post's and voting for the same model five times (or in other words applied common sense!)

All this block voting divisable by five stuff is well above me I am afraid KISS is my moto.

Anyway I thought this was supposed to be a fun thing, with us rooting for our fav model not slagging off other designers! Me i am out of this discussion unless it goes light hearted again. I will build a Tinker whatever and probably take part in the mass build aswell because I cannot see a bad design amongst the nomination's and above all I think a mass build would be FUN.

 

Edited By Bearair on 03/10/2013 09:35:56

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

You're right Roger - the Mass Build is fun. As Chris says we are keeping a runnng count behind the scenes. I have found in previous years its a bit iffy to promote numbers too much at this stage as it does tend to lead to bit of "tactical voting" with folks voting to keep a model out rather than simply saying "these are the five in order I think would be good for MB"

Let's enjoy the vote. I too like the Tinker - but I quite fancy a Tyro as well. I looked around my "hangar" the other day I don't really have a really easy to fly relaxing sort of model. If a beginner were to ask me to take them "for a go" I have nothing they could fly - even on a buddy! And sometimes you just want to potter round the sky with something that almost flys itself. (Perhaps I'm getting old! )

BEB 57 This year! Where did it all go?

[Jamie sawyer]

If it's the Barnstormer that wins !!?

There is a number of them in different sizes. There isn't any particular size that you have to build is there ?

I would have liked the 88 inch one as an addition to my hanger.

I like the look of the Tyro to BEB. I need a nice floater that flies itself to. All my models at this moment are NOT that. A nice big baby would be nice for orientation and to teach if it cropped up.

Jamie

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Hi Jamie,

if the Barnstormer is selected, and I stress "if" there is a long way to go yet, then yes all variants would be up for grabs - Barnstormer plans etc. are available in wingspans; 32", 63", 72" and 88" (and probably others we don't know about!) All would be "in the mix". As would any other size if someone wanted to scale it up or down or in the middle!

We actually encourage the more experienced builders to "move outside the bounds of the plan" if they want to, as this illustrates one of the big advantages of plan building - i.e. the scope for "personalisation" and the fact that even if we build 50 of these no two need be exactly alike!

Other models in the nomination list exist in multiple incarnations as well, obviously the same applies there.

BEB

[David Davis]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 03/10/2013 12:39:49:

if the Barnstormer is selected, and I stress "if" there is a long way to go yet, then yes all variants would be up for grabs - Barnstormer plans etc. are available in wingspans; 32", 63", 72" and 88" (and probably others we don't know about!) All would be "in the mix". As would any other size if someone wanted to scale it up or down or in the middle!

There's a 52" span one too. RCM&E Code: RC/1039.

[Richard Harris]

The problem I see with models like the Barnstormer and Tyro is that they are more likely to have been built by the more experienced modellers. That leads to the question, would I really want to build a model that I have constructed before? for me I dont really want to again but, I can see that it would make an ideal project for the mass build.

I am more likely thinking on my own here but, not only does the mass build have to suit the requirements that are set out by BEB, people are more likely to have a go at a model they havent yet built. This I beleive was the key behind the WeBbit, plus, all building started after Xmas and we were all building together. This enabled us all to bounce ideas off each other as we went along on a model that most had not constructed before.

As for the voting process I think this is very good apart from the point system, say we get 10 people vote for the Barnstormer. It is more than likely that there would only be 10 guarenteed models built. Now if people voted for 5 models each and they all scored 1 point each, would'nt this be a more realistic choice for the masses? the most votes gets selected, more models will be built by a variety of modellers.

Just me thinking out loud.

Rich

[Nev]

I only voted for 3.

Mini Jazz, Piwakakaka and e2K. These are the only three I could actually devote time too and build as a short term project.

There are some great models and I have already built the Miss Lizzy, thoroughly enjoying the build. But from start to finish took me about 13 months so I think anything on this scale rules it out as a mass build, for me at least.