Voting Chat Thread

[Phil 9]

BEB i like your method for the voting system. I am very excited to see what model wins

[kc]

Skybird 40 was a later & larger version published in Aviation Modeller March 96. Designer is shown as Gordon Mellish but Ian peacock did the article.

[Mark Stringer]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 01/10/2013 09:26:23:

I think it really comes down to each voter being a bit sensible - you might really want a particular model - and there is absolutely nothing to stop you building it of course! - but ask yourself "is this really a sensible Mass Build Choice?" Is this a model that fits the bill? Or is it just something I personally want to build? I think this is a time for "collective social responsibility" as the politicians would say!!!

What are the qualities we are looking for? Well I'd say;

1. Something that can be built fairly cheaply - so no retracts, need for 11 servos etc.
2. Something that can be built fair easily and quickly by an experienced builder. This is important, we do need to entice a reasonable number of experienced builders into the process to act as "mentors" and "leaders" - pioneering the way for the less experienced. These guys have existing build schedules - often they know the model they are going to build after the one, after the one they are doing now! To draw them in we need a model that they see as a "quick cheap build" that offers a bit of scope for "individualism"!
3. Something that is not too much of a challenge to fly. Many of the less experienced builders are also less experienced flyers - and some of the more experienced builders don't have the reactions they used to have!

So, let's exercise some common purpose and try a get a model as many as possible can sign up for.

BEB

BEB - totally with you here and based on that I have looked carefully at every one of the 39 proposed models.

So my criteria was similat to yours - simple and cheap to build, easily flown by someone with almost any level of experience, not too small (for stability), not a pure aerobat / pylon racer type, not a bi-plane (as they do fly differently - so can't vote for a Jabberwock) ...

So with all of that in mind it cuts the list down dramatically - with just 5 seeming to fit the bill in those respects

Having looked at the voting however it is not going that way at the moment so I am guessing that feelings are more important when it comes to the actual voting and the winner will come from the heart and not the head ..

I will consider and double check my shortlist and vote later

#edit# I also took into consideration that it should be flyable in classic GreenAcres weather - I know the site well as i learnt to fly there back in 1979 - and it was where I fell in love with the Jabberwocks after i was given a Jabberwock III -  is it really that long ago!!!

Edited By Mark Stringer on 01/10/2013 14:00:58

[Martyn K]

Just looking at the piwakawaka again. It is rather webbitish in appearance and size. Maybe just a bit too close for a mass build project.

P.S. BEB - well done - a lot of work has goe into this - thanks

M

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Thanks for the "thanks" guys! Nice to know its appreciated!

Well I've cast my votes. I went for the Tinker/Tyro combination first. I think this would be a good choice. Straight forward classical build of the Tyro covers all the skills - and anyone could fly it. But basically the same fuselage could become the Tinker - a bit more scope there for the more adventurous, but basically it's the same model. If it was choosen, I wonder if anyone would come up with the idea of effectively building a "convertable" - ie a Tyro that you can attach additional lower wings on to bcome a "Tinker"? Mmmm, now there's a challenge.

The Dawn Flyer was my number two. I know Lynds well - he's a member of the same club as me - and I've seen more than one Dawn Flyer close up and seen them fly. Lovely model, an easy build and a model that exudes charm and atmoshpere. A "bit o class"! And it flys nicely - well behaved.

My third choice was the Barnstormer. Well what can you say? Its in the league of "classic RC models" along with examples like the Super 60 etc. Again a classical build that would teach all of the basic skills to a beginner. And, like the Tyro/Tinker available in a range of sizes from several different sources.

Number four for me was the STOL. I have fond memories of Peter Russell who sadly died recently. STOL was another "land mark" model. A bit more complex as a build maybe, especially the wing - but great fun to fly and, as an aerodynamist, could I really not pick it!

Finally, number five is a pure indulgence I'm afraid - Miss Lizzy. Perhaps not the perfect Mass Build model in some respects but such a pretty model I just couldn't resist. She's probably a bit too fast and high a wing loading for some - but those cheeky 1930's looks are too much!

Well - that my story. What's yours?

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 01/10/2013 14:08:24

[John F]

I voted for the Corben Baby Ace as my first choice because it was such a favourite with the US homebuilders and beats yet another collection of guns with its good looks and unique history.

Then there was the Evans Volksplane. It looks so basic and is, again, another home build aircraft that would look great with a nice colour scheme and decent pilot model, with flying scarf, of course.

Third on my list is the Zulu E, again another model begging for a decently painted model pilot and big enough to get some decent instruments modelled. It’s also big enough to possibly try a sweet bomb bay!

Fourth is the Barnstormer because there are so many paint jobs available it looks very good indeed and can be termed as another gentle (ish) flier which is something I am looking for in returning to the modelling fold.

Lastly the Dawn Flyer. I need not say anything other than “look at it!”. It’s beautiful. And the pilot can have a scarf!

Edited By John F on 01/10/2013 15:30:21

[Mark Stringer]

My choices are for the reasons i stated above - so tried to be totally practical - obviously biased to the Rat Out Of Hell (someone had to vote for her - and thanks Rich for your vote, doing the plans has obviously given you a better feel for her potential)

[Mark Stringer]

Speaking of name-a-likes ... I did the other Pushy Cat a few years ago - this was the Vic Smeed one from my October 1953 Aeromodeller **LINK**

As always these free flight planes dont especially like going electric and RC - or more than 5mph!

[Gary Vinten 1]

OK voted for the swamp rat

it is very easy to build for a beginner and quick for the more experienced. it flys on ic and electric and was a free plan in the mag . the rat flys very well in the wind and is fully areobatic and docile with the rates down . cheap to build andis a lot of fun   and can be run on 3s lipo so cheap electrics as well

and would be good for all those PETER MILLER fans out there

Edited By Gary Vinten 1 on 01/10/2013 17:47:46

Edited By Gary Vinten 1 on 01/10/2013 17:48:56

[Erfolg]

I will be totally honest (as I always endeavour to be) and open. I want to influence the judges view of the ideal model.

Some models such as the Pushy Cat are inherently flawed for this contest. As an electric model, it does not seem to perform well, being tricky to trim. Perhaps even the lightest lipo and motor, is heavier than a .75 mills running on a thimble of diesel. Perhaps far more importantly, it only seems to almost fly in the calmest of weather, that is using very small servos etc. A great model in its day, but for this selection process?

So what is needed? Perhaps a TM model? Perhaps not, as these are modellers models, where building skills are rewarded by an outstanding looking model.

So what is required? I would suggest it is a toss up between two distinguished designers. Both designing simple structure models, that are non the less rugged.

One no longer with us, leaving a portfolio of work covering a wide range of subjects. As with most nostalgia subjects, they are compromised by the passage of time. Yes DB was certainly a giant of his age. Yet motors were heavier, less powerful and constructional detail always paid homage to a culture, where a little artistry in additional constructional detail was expected. Personally I think like the retro Rovers and Jaguars, they should be left to DB devotees.

What is required is a PM model, much more Auto Union or should that be Audi TT. A nod to nostalgia, yet thoroughly modern. Take the swamp Rat, what wing could be simpler as a built up structure. Take the body next, Just enough re-enforcements to make it fit for purpose, producing a simple structure. As for the finished model, well it has that something extra, yet if required could have additional details if the builder required. What would the designers reaction be? I would guess, it would be along the lines, change what you want, although it flies really well as designed. The real beauty of the Swamp Rat, it is as happy on electric power as IC.

My personal choice would be a Pie Whacker, as it is a simple electric model, that seems to bounce well, if piloting skills are less than perfect. The down side it would not take well to most IC engines, being very lightly built. Then as KC has suggested, it needs to be kept reasonably near, not what many IC modellers seem to like (who come from the big IC background, although I have noticed that they are quite relaxed about helicopters being quite close).

For me it has to be a PM design.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

A couple of observations on the voting process so far:

1. Please stick strickly to votes only in the voting thread please - comments have a habit as starting as one liners in a few posts and then before we know where we are folks are posting essays in response to comments! Remember, discussion and comment is very welcome, here, on the voting chat thread not there on the voting thread! We have to be able to count the votes quickly at the end and experience tells me that if they are buried among comments some get missed!
2. Multiple votes for the same model don't count multiply! It will still only get 5 points! If you do only want to vote for one or two models - then just make one or two votes, that's fine.
3. Please don't vote for models that are not in the nomination catalogue - if we start adding more models now this will descend into total chaos - as opposed to the purely "partial chaos" it is now!

BEB

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Erfolg on 01/10/2013 18:41:16:

Some models such as the Pushy Cat are inherently flawed for this contest. As an electric model, it does not seem to perform well, being tricky to trim. Perhaps even the lightest lipo and motor, is heavier than a .75 mills running on a thimble of diesel. Perhaps far more importantly, it only seems to almost fly in the calmest of weather, that is using very small servos etc. A great model in its day, but for this selection process?

I didn't vote for the Pushy Cat so I'm just pushing my "champion" here (no pun intended!), but in the interests of accuracy and clarity, are we talking about the same model here Erf?

The Pushy Cat that is proposed I might agree with you is perhaps not the best choice for a Mass Build - but for completely opposite reasons. Firstly, approriately powered, it goes like a bat out of hell! Very fast, very high wing loading. "Calm weather"? It doesn't give a hoot about the weather! At the speeds it goes it won't even notice the weather!!!

My"beef" with the Pushy Cat is that, while its easy and cheap to build (I agree) and great fun as it would be for a confident pilot, I think it's a mighty handful for a novice to fly!

Are you sure that you are not confusing the Pushy Cat nominated here with the Vic Smeed "vintage" version also called a Pushy Cat?

BEB

[Devcon1]

Many thanks to BEB fo the effort and speed at which he's pulling this all together.

Whilst it would be nice to have one of my top 5 I'm strangely looking forward to the possibilty of building and flying a model that somebody else has chosen for me.

Regards

John

[kevin b]

Well I've voted so it looks like a scratch build is in the offing as opposed to the rebuilds (not mine) I have been working on.

Nice job BEB. Is this going to be a one, or two round vote ?

kevinb

[Bearair]

Erfolg DB models are still current models, proof of the fact being that there is still a business selling those models. The DB Mascot is just as relevant to anyone wishing to build an excellent trainer today as any other kit build model on the market or as a plan. The Pronto is as minimalist as an eighty's british stereo, absolutely no "artistry" there. A D box wing is still the best way to produce a light strong wing, check our the F3F or F5B models, they are still using a D Box ,glass and carbon yes but the D box still rules. As for the engines being heavier and less powerful, well hold a HP 40 in your hand and tell me it weighs more than a modern 40! Some are less powerful I agree but if you look at what's really changed modern engines swing bigger props and rev less, partly that's because of noise restrictions, but I challenge you to show me a modern 20 that puts out anything like the power of an OPS on a pipe!

To suggest to possibly inexperienced modellers that DB models are like an old Rover or Jaguar and only suitable for devotees is I think bunkum.

I have built a few of PMs designs and they fly great but I struggle to see much difference in construction in them to older designs, except when he is producing a different type, such as electric or a modern fun fly. I would of thought he uses variations on tried and tested techniques, and they are IMHO all the better for it!. I am sure that if I build a old classic or a model designed last week the basic construction methods will be the same

Roger (admirer of a good design no matter who designed it or how old it is)

[Martin McIntosh]

Sorry to put my paddle in again but if I was a total novice there are no more than a couple I would even consider. Nothing to really grab my attention sufficiently to want to build and do a guidance blog for but that is just my opinion. Hopefully others out there will have a different view whatever the chosen model may be. However, good luck with it.

[Colin Leighfield]

I confess that I'm struggling a bit with this one, whatever the choice is there's likely to be a fair bit of build time and it's whether or not I want to give it any priority over my current back-log of builds, let alone finding enough flying time as well! However, I'll put a vote in based on my earlier indications.

[Gary Vinten 1]

Hi Colin

I would agree that some of the models would take to long to build that's why i went for the swamp rat quick build up to date modern plan and it was free in the mag and with low rates on could be flown by a novice and with full rates is great fun . The rat would be a very good build for the novice and has a build sequence in the mag and has the designer on this forum so let's sum it up

1 quick easy build

2 cheap to build

3 ic or electric

4 easy to fly full aerobatic

5 was a free plan

6 has a build sequence in the mag

7 bang up to date a modern

8 and for Green acres can be flown in most weathers

 

 

Edited By Gary Vinten 1 on 01/10/2013 21:51:14

[Mark Stringer]

Similar to the other Rat then (out of hell) -plan and build instructions free and I am right here if needed. Plan will be a PDF for scaling to any size so good for I/c or electric - trainer or flat out aerobat / 3d model .. must be something about rats!

[Colin Leighfield]

Gary, thanks for that mate, it's a helpful analysis. This continues to be interesting!

[Richard Harris]

Posted by Mark Stringer on 01/10/2013 21:35:14:

Similar to the other Rat then (out of hell) -plan and build instructions free and I am right here if needed. Plan will be a PDF for scaling to any size so good for I/c or electric - trainer or flat out aerobat / 3d model .. must be something about rats!

Mark,

I am just about done with the plan (bar for the tail skid), for me it is the ideal candidate for the mass build as I am sure not many have heard of it let alone built one. Ok, it is not the prettiest model but it is very unique and with the size of the wing, tailplane and everything inline I am sure it has to be a very good flier. Loads of room inside that banana fuselage for electrics and not alot of wood needed to build it with very few parts.

It gets my vote over my own model as it is what the mass is all about.

Rich

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Martin McIntosh on 01/10/2013 20:30:14:

Sorry to put my paddle in again but if I was a total novice there are no more than a couple I would even consider. Nothing to really grab my attention sufficiently to want to build and do a guidance blog for but that is just my opinion. Hopefully others out there will have a different view whatever the chosen model may be. However, good luck with it.

Martin, the nominations are what you (and everyone else) put forward, without editing or pre-selection from me or anyone else. Everything that was suggested is here.

In saying there is nothing to interest you at all you are really saying is that you failed to nominate anything that interested you!

BEB

[Jamie sawyer]

Well I +1 the whizza but after BEB put up the links to all the aircraft and I seen the Mini Fanatic from Avicraft I had to order the kit ....dearie me lol. I think this forum is bad for my wallet ....cant wait to see what the decision is at the end of this. Watching and reading eagerly

Jamie

[Martin McIntosh]

Wrong. I did not nominate anything because of the above reasons. I did not wish to push my own design or other suggested because it is up to those who are hopefully going to actually build to decide. Whatever the outcome it would be interesting to poll for the numbers who will actually undertake the project before it is written in stone, even if this requires a rethink. Anyone doing a build blog will have a lot of work ahead of them as I know from experience so I am hopeing for a good following to justify it for them. We shall see.

Martin

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Glad to have your active, positive and optimistic support Martin!

BEB