Voting Chat Thread

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

No Erf, the intention is that the next stage will be "one member, one vote". This graduated voting was intended to separate out the strong candidates with a broad following so we could form a shortlist. The next round though we really want to see a firm "winner" ideally - or at least a small number (2 or 3 at the most) "winners". To get that we are better with one vote each - it forces folks to choose!!

BEB

[Erfolg]

Well the spread sheet was quite simple, a little disappointing, really. There I was looking forward to conditional arguments for the cells. Instead just a simple Boolean argument, Boo, Hoooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. It is ready to rock and roll.

Care Bare if I had learnt to read properly, with a little accuracy, I would not have had to ask! I blame it all on the government, having top marks at school, and I still cannot read, write or count, who said they dumbed down exams! So please restrain yourself and have a little pity.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Hi Folks,

OK in the interests of moving on - but at the same time giving everyone plenty of opportunity to vote - we'll keep this vote up until Friday night (that's the 11th Oct I think) at about 21:00 - is that OK? Then we'll close it and announce the formal result of round one.

That will give us the weekend to chat about where the break is and how many models should be in the shortlist and we can get the final vote up for Monday 14th Oct.

So, if you haven't voted yet please do! You have four days left!

BEB

[Lindsay Todd]

Crikey chaps honoured to have Dawn Flyer even being considered never mind so high in the rankings, I have refrained from voting as would probably not participate in a build due to other projects but obviously would be delighted to support should she be chosen. Linds

[Mark Stringer]

Erfolg - my spreadsheet was fine, just the initial set of numbers didn't match what I had - the revised ones did though!
I made mine complex so that I get more information on the various possible voting methods so that I can see the difference between the current method, one person one vote, five equal votes etc.
quite interesting to see all of the differences that it makes

Edited By Mark Stringer on 08/10/2013 11:28:18

[kc]

Barnstormer, Tinker and Tyro are all DB Sport & Scale plan packs ( some are also MyHobbyStore plans ) Has anybody checked whether DB could supply the required quantity of ribs, dural cabanes & u/c in a short period should these models be chosen? I mentioned this here before but I dont remember any outcome. Are we just assuming we can just get lots of these when we want?

Edited By kc on 08/10/2013 12:02:34

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Hi kc,

Sorry I did mean to reply to you when you asked this before - but things got in the way!

While I understand what you are saying, and we can't ignore this factor, I think its a bit early to making those enquiries just yet - I certainly would not want to be responsible if a company went into mad production now and then the model wasn't selected at the final poll!

It may look good for these DB models at the moment, and it may well turn out that way - but my experiece tells me all this can change in the final round! For example, an interesting feature of the voting is that the "fun flyer" vote (for want of a better term!) is very split among a lot options. But if only one of those options - most likely the MiniJazz - were to make it through to the short list we could easily see a lot of that currently spread out vote rally behind one representative. If that happened the final outcome could look very different from what we are looking at now! Hence why we are not making too many firm plans just yet until "the people have spoken"!

We should have the model (or models) selected by the third quarter of this month. The build itself won't start until (at the earliest) the beginning of January - and many will start much later than that. Going on the Webbit and the Tuc we would have maybe 70 people (maximum) wanting to buy a woodpack or a short kit eventually - but not all of them will buy early.

So what it amounts to is that a manufacturer may need to produce 25-30 sets in two and half months - mid Oct to end Dec - and another 30 or so over the next 3 months. I don't think any manufacturer would have a problem in meeting that schedule - especially not for more sales in a few weeks than they might get in a quarter usually and more to come!

Once the model is selected we will of course be contacting possible suppliers more or less immedaitely. If it was a Dave Boddington model then of course DBSS would be one company we would approach - but we could also approach MHS who might be interested in supplying as well - I know they do a woodpack for the MiniTyro already - not sure about the others.

So no I don't think we are "just assuming that there will be lots of these available when we want them" - but maybe its a little premature to be alerting companies just yet.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 08/10/2013 12:45:00

[Erfolg]

I do find it disturbing that the voting will be protracted, as emphasised, leaving little time for a build.

This emphasises the desirability of a simple to build model, in my opinion.

Disregarding all the various criteria surrounding the selection and construction of the model, I personally would want a model that I can fly on a regular basis, this view could be compromised if the model was very simple to construct. Then the model would just go into storage, along with my Tomboy, which does seem a waste, none the less.

Mark I agree that spreadsheets where the feed data can be varied or multiple models using the same feed data, can be a very valuable and interesting "what if" set of scenarios.

In my case, my first spreadsheet answered the wrong question, Although on my basis,indicating that the PM model was a close second to the Barnstormer. It does indicate how weighted voting does alter the results significantly.

It would be interesting to see how the various methods of counting votes alter things.

I did notice that proceeding votes seem to alter the thinking of the voter, there being apparent trends with particular models

With respect to this forthcoming round I have used simple "if" arguments. I really wanted to do "if then else" type arguments, although my lack of knowledge and expertise with excel is some what lacking. Although that is what I personally see as the challenge, a change from Suduko. I have built in a check sum argument into my latest model, to hopefully avoid any hidden logic issues. Then again, a few errors do keep some people exercised. I have also made provision to record the voter, so that checking for all votes and double votes can be done, with some ease. I ma now thinkging that I can do a check via the arguments on "string composition" for this aspect.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Erfolg on 08/10/2013 16:18:39:

I do find it disturbing that the voting will be protracted, as emphasised, leaving little time for a build.

 

Erf, I'd hardly call one month from beginning to end "protracted" for a decision taken on a forum were not everyone logs in everyday!

Secondly, "little time for a build" - well if you take Greenacres as the target time for the completion (and you don't have to, there's nothing stopping you going pass that) but if you do take that as the point by which most folks would be aiming to have the model complete - then that gives 6 months to build it!!!

How long does it take to build a relatively simple model? I think 6 months is more than long enough. I'm not a fast builder by anyone's standard but even I built both the Webbit and the Tucano in two months each.

BEB

PS We won't mention the Elf!

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 08/10/2013 16:53:04

[Erfolg]

BEB, I am missing something it seems, my interpretation of what you have written is that the decision will not take place until the beginning of January.

If this is correct then the vote will have been between 2-3 months.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but can convey my problems. These are, if I do not have the plan, then I have a delay in obtaining one. That is unless a thumbnail is made available via the site. The next issue, if by chance I am short of items, then this can interfere with the progress of the build. The biggest issue though, is unplanned repairs to models in service.

[Phil Winks]

I think you must be missing something Erfolg I'm under the impression the final round will only be open a month as it was,I believe, last year

Phil

Edited By Phil Winks on 08/10/2013 18:00:43

[Erfolg]

OK, I am missing something.

Is the programme as follows, this

• This round closes 13/10/2013
• Next round 4 weeks, then closes 10 November

Is the final round a first past the post, or is there some deliberation by the RCM&E team? Which accounts for the delay in announcing the winning model?

[Phil Winks]

As I see it Erfolg this round closes on Fri 11th and deliberations will take place over the weekend then we'll know if it's 1st past the post or other scenario when voting starts again Mon 14th
So come the 10th or maybe 12th we'll have a finite answer I'm sure someone will correct if I've got that wrong

Phil

[Mark Stringer]

And no new votes for 2 days - come on everyone - D day (or is that MB day) approaches!

For those interested here is how things would have been if the voting process was carried out differently (and i am not criticing how it has been done but based on the earlier discussions i wondered what it would have looked like if it was done differently) ....

So far there have been 53 votes cast - if there are any people that have voted twice i have not taken that into account - just worked through them all as they are

First, if everyone had just one vote (so just taking the first choice everyone made) we would have:

Barnstormer - 7

Tinker / Tyro - 6

Mini Jazz - 5

Dawn Flyer, Pushycat, jabberwock - 3

Rat out of Hell, swamp rat, stol, evans volksplane, piewacker, chorus gull, dragon dancer - 2

Next, if everyone voted for 5 models - but all got one point per vote (so there was no particular order of preference) it would look like this:

Barnstormer - 19

Tinker / Tyro - 18

Mini Jazz - 17

Dawn Flyer - 15

Pushy Cat - 13

Jabberwock - 10

swamp rat, stol - 9

rat out of hell, evans volksplane, piewacker, chorus gull, dragon dancer - 8

That is if my sheet is right, but i think it is! - Just for the sake of curiosilty!!

So if the target is to get 70 building and lets say 50% of those who have voted so far will do the build then we need more people to vote (after all even the Barnstormer was only first choice of 7 people and in total only 19 have voted for it so far)

All just fun and dont want anyone to read anything into all this that isn't there...

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Basically that is correct Phil.

This round of voting finishes Friday night - 11th Oct at approximately 21:00. That gives us time to check the totals and prepare a "results post" listing the points for all of the nominations and have that up on the site before the end of Friday - we hope!

Then I suggest we allow the weekend to quickly debate the length of the shortlist - somewhere between 2 and 8 models depending on where a natural break falls.

We will then open the vote for the final round based on that shortlist - we would hope to do that Monday morning - 14th Oct. Now how long that stays open is a bit flexible - let's see how quickly the voting progresses. If voting is fast and the result stabilises with a clear winner after two weeks or so we'll probably stop then - so we could have a result as early as 28th Oct or there abouts. If votes trickle in, we might leave it up to a couple of weeks longer. But whatever we do we will obviously give folks notice of the close of the poll so everyone has a chance to vote.

So, to summarise, the earliest wecould have the model(s) decided is around 28th Oct, the latest would be around 10th-12th November.

We would then know what the model(s) is/are and we can approach manufacturers with a view to plans/woodpacks/kits etc being available in quantity for a building start on 1st Jan 2014 for those that want to start early. Most will choose to start later than that. And Greenacres is some time around the 21st or so of June.

Timetable:

1. First round elimination voting: finish 11th Oct
2. Second round voting start: 14th Oct
3. Second round voting finish and announcment of model: Some point in the interval 28 Oct to 10th November
4. Building can start 1st Jan or any date after that.

There will not be any "debating or deliberation" by RCM&E staff - or anyone else for that matter - the members will decide by the vote.

BEB

 

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 08/10/2013 18:55:49

[Frank Stevens]

Can I put in some support for Mark Stringer's "Rat Out Of Hell". There has been some comments that no plan is available, so I am doing a trial build from Mark's PDF and build instructions. I have found no errors in the plan so far, and have created a kit of parts ready for assembly.

I have felt that this would be a good choice since Mark suggested it, and having had a chance to work with the plan I can confirm it is not a difficult build.

Frank

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Hi Mark,

your analysis of different voting systems is very interesting - we have done something similar with Chris's spreadsheet as well.

Perhaps the most interesting, and reassuring, aspect is that it doesn't really change the basic result in terms of the top six. The 1 and 2 remain the same, the 3,4.5 swap postions a bit and swamp rat just goes out of the top six and Jaberwok comes in. That's it.

Regarding numbers voting - I wouldn't be too worried at this stage. Two things will happen:

Firstly most people will probably vote in the final round - when we are actually electing the model "for real".

Secondly - because its "one member one vote" those that didn't get their main choice through will have to consider what they vote for. Now some might decide they don't like any of the shortlisted planes - but a lot will (hopefully) stay with it and vote for the shortlisted model that is nearest to there number one choice.

So, as I said before - its all to play for.

BEB

PS 70 isn't a target in any sense - its just typical of the numbers we have had in previous years.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Remeber folks - first round voting closes on Friday night at 21:00. If you haven't voted yet, and intend to, you are running out of time!

BEB

[Erfolg]

I have been considering how to check for double voting. I have not achieved an automatic version yet, The main issue is not being able to do a shuffle sort or anything near. What I have done, is create another list of voters by doing a cell copy, then manually doing a sort by the sort button on the tool bar. In an adjacent cell I have written an "if" statement, which does a check of the cell above and adjacent, with a Boolean, if, = then "copy", the not true bit as a result, the true being "OK".

It works, but a bit clunky.

Rather interestingly, somehow by not saving the original spreadsheet (although I am convinced I had previously saved it), before shutting down, or accepting the option to retrieve files, when restarting, having shut down without a save, I totally lost it. I guess it is in the waste bin. But it does show how little I know about Excel, and how to use it effectively.

I am ready this time for the second round.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

It doesn't work then Erf - cos it hasn't spotted the double vote that's on the thread!

BEB

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

In the version of Excel I have there are a few ways to quickly check for duplicates Erfolg.
(NOTE: This relies totally on entering the data perfectly in the first place.)

• If the names are in a column, just do a data sort. Identical names will end up next to each other.
• If the names are in a row, highlight them, copy them, paste into another sheet using "paste special" and the "transpose" option. This pastes them in a column which you can sort as above.
• OR - use conditional formatting. Highlight all the cells to check, go to "conditional formatting", "highlight cells rules", "duplicate values".

[Erfolg]

Chris, in essence that is what I have done, your first option.

The difference, I guess is that I do the check after the sort by =IF(F3=F4,"double","OK). I have had trouble using = (cell  ref, (to duplicate)), as when the sort is undertaken, the original copied data, is also sorted. This destroys the relationship with the votes as they come in.

I am thinking about how to automatically copy the original cell string, without there being a relationship being established, any ideas?

Edited By Erfolg on 09/10/2013 23:46:29

[Glenn Stratton]

Hi, just browsing ebay and there is a copy of THE Skybird plan and build article going for a £1! Sale closes in 2 days. Sorry but don't know how to link with this Samsung Tablet.

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Posted by Erfolg on 09/10/2013 23:44:20:

I am thinking about how to automatically copy the original cell string, without there being a relationship being established, any ideas?

Edited By Erfolg on 09/10/2013 23:46:29

You'll very quickly find my Excel limitations at this rate Erfolg.

Surely all you need, if you want to show the string that is in A3 in D3, then in D3 put =A3

[Erfolg]

BEB, it does work, that is how I was able to know there was a double vote, the issue was that it had a manual part, as does my latest version.

What I wanted to do was to compare the value of one string in a cell with the adjacent cell. If the value is higher, to do nothing, if lower, to move the string, to the cell above. then to repeat the process until the list was complete, ie loop until the list length is matched. In essence a ripple sort.

Then to use a algorithm to compare adjacent cells for the same string. This part I have working.

With excel there is a nice button that does this for you, but you must designate the list and press the button for the operation.

What I want, is every time I enter a value, this process to be initiated as part of the set up. Rather than manually.

Of course the manual method is OK, the whole process is for my pleasure, like a Sudoko, although in this case there is some use.