"NO ARTFS for me. I build real models" Sticker

[Phil Brooks]

It's all a question of degree, isn't it? I've built kits, built from scratch and also bought ARTFs, and have managed to crash them all. I've never heard of anyone sourcing his balsa by chopping down the tree and planing it down, or rendering down a horse for glue, so we all rely on other peoples efforts to a greater or lesser extent. Just enjoy.

[Peter Miller]

I know. I have built kits, plans and even reviewed some ARTFs, I have done free flight, control line radio and solid scale models. We all had fun and took the micky in good humour.

These days it seems that if one wants a bit of fun with a sticker half the population takes it personally and assumes that one is having a go at them.

Good job none of them have to spend time in the forces these days. Life would be a misery for them.

[eflightray]

My personal view.

Yes I would love more people to get involved in model planes in general, if getting them into the hobby involves them buying RTF or ARF models, great. They at least started down the slippery slope, they can always build later.

But to criticise any part of the hobby, (I know it's tongue in cheek, I hope), could put someone new to the hobby off. I have heard of clubs turning away potential new members if they fly a cheap electric model.

The IC v electric, balsa v foam, ARF v building, should be though about perhaps a little more seriously as in my opinion it doesn't matter what you use as long as you enjoy the hobby.

If you don't like ARF models, Ok by me. But would you go to one of the big model shows and criticise those flying the large 30cc, 50cc, for having basically a ARF model.

By the way, all my models are scratch built except for two, why I bought them ?, even I wonder, but I wouldn't criticise the market that supplies them or the buyers that buy them.

For a start they are helping keep the prices of all the radio gear etc down.

Ray.

 

Edited By eflightray neath on 01/07/2014 10:16:59

[kc]

I suggest " Real Aeromodellers Build Their Own Aircraft" as a sticker, and maybe the title for Peter's book.

 

 

 

 

Edited By kc on 01/07/2014 10:51:49

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I don't care what you fly, if it puts a smile on your face bigger numbers, bigger voice.

Not to mention club fee's to pay bills with.

John

[eflightray]

Posted by kc on 01/07/2014 10:51:22:

I suggest " Real Aeromodellers Build Their Own Aircraft" as a sticker, and maybe the title for Peter's book.

Edited By kc on 01/07/2014 10:51:49

So you see all those others as not 'real aeromodellers'.

Perhaps you still make your own radio gear ?, servos ?, engines ?, or perhaps your not a 'real engineer', just a toy builder.

Why not just, "Easy ways to build your own model planes", if a book needs a title. (But who needs an out of date book, (eventually), when you have the Internet).

Ray

[Tony Bennett]

oh chill out peeps.

it was a joke. sheesh.

i build and dont fly much, have artf's, scratch builds, own designs, kit builds and i saw it as the joke it was.

[Martin Whybrow]

Oops, my reply went to the wrong thread!

Edited By Martin Whybrow on 01/07/2014 12:57:25

[KingKade]

Posted by Martin Whybrow on 01/07/2014 12:56:09:

Oops, my reply went to the wrong thread!

Edited By Martin Whybrow on 01/07/2014 12:57:25

yeah you confused me there......

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by john stones 1 on 01/07/2014 10:58:43:

I don't care what you fly, if it puts a smile on your face bigger numbers, bigger voice.

Not to mention club fee's to pay bills with.

John

I couldn't agree more John. And efliteray - good points.

My real personal objection to the sticker - and similar sentiments - is that it is divisive. If you had a sticker that said "I love building my own models" that's fine. Its a positive statement of what you like. Most importantly it doesn't, by implication or otherwise, denigrate anyone else's way of enjoying the hobby.

But when you start saying "Real modellers do this or that" or "Proper models have to be like this or that" you are by implication excluding people. You are saying they are not "proper" or their models are not "proper" in some sense - and the bottom line is I just don't think we need that sort of divisive approach. Folk might say "Lighten up - its just a joke" But its a joke at someone else's expense and like most such jokes it can be hurtful and dividing.

I like building and I like flying. have scratch built, kit built and ARTF models. (In that respect I'm probably like a lot of folks on here.) I don't view some of these as more "proper" than others. And when a guy comes to my club who has a demanding job and three young kids and so struggles to find time to himself to fly, I certainly don't seek to judge him or exclude him from the fellowship of aeromodellers because he's "time poor" and only has ARTF's.

I, along with others, have done a lot on this forum (and other places) to promote building - organising four Mass Builds for a start and hours spent blogging build techniques in detail and answering questions about building so I feel my build credentials are OK. Surely if you're passionate about building this is a better approach? Encouragement - not exclusion.

So if you are proud of being exclusively a builder - that's great! By all means sing the praises of building. But why do so at the cost of others by putting them down by implication? This is not a "zero sum" game, we can have building and ARTF's. Both can prosper - neither has to put the other down by claiming that "prpper" modellers only do one or the other.

There are enough people out there who are not fans of our hobby - we don't need to put each other down as well!

BEB

[Dai Fledermaus]

I'm Welsh and proud to be so, and as a follower of our national team I have a tee shirt which says "I support Wales and any other team playing England"

Now, by wearing it I'm not putting anyone down, it doesn't make me a Welsh nationalist. I don't dislike English rugby, Whenever I'm asked to declare my nationality I say I'm British. The T shirt is intended to be a joke, something to put a smile on the faces of Welsh and English supporters alike, something to provoke some banter.

Pete's original post was obviously written tongue in cheek, but even if it wasn't surely we can express a preference or an opinion without others getting too judgemental by reading something into it which wasn't intended.

[KingKade]

Posted by Colin Ashman on 01/07/2014 15:56:27:

I'm Welsh and proud to be so, and as a follower of our national team I have a tee shirt which says "I support Wales and any other team playing England"

Now, by wearing it I'm not putting anyone down, it doesn't make me a Welsh nationalist. I don't dislike English rugby, Whenever I'm asked to declare my nationality I say I'm British. The T shirt is intended to be a joke, something to put a smile on the faces of Welsh and English supporters alike, something to provoke some banter.

Pete's original post was obviously written tongue in cheek, but even if it wasn't surely we can express a preference or an opinion without others getting too judgemental by reading something into it which wasn't intended.

Wales aren't good enough to play England.....

[Dai Fledermaus]

Posted by KingKade on 01/07/2014 15:59:47:

:.

Wales aren't good enough to play England.....

 

You must be feeling insecure KingKade

 

 

Edited By Colin Ashman on 01/07/2014 16:15:29

[KingKade]

[Prop Nut]

Precisely the reason, Colin, that I no longer describe myself as British. At least when I tell an American I'm English he doesn't need to admit he hasn't a clue about the difference between the United Kingdom, Great Britain or British Isles!

[Lima Hotel Foxtrot]

Posted by Peter Miller on 29/06/2014 19:39:03:

A friend saw a van at Wings and Wheels with a sticker that said roughly the heading of this thread.

Anyone know who sells them?

I WANT ONE!!!!

Well, this thread quickly veered off the subject.

These stickers are free from Addlestone Models if you buy a Ben Buckle kit from them. Just remember to ask.

[Peter Miller]

You know it is amazing how a simple request for a sticker that amused me has turned into such a heated debate.

Some people seem to believe that anything that doesn't say that we must all be equal or that could possibly be interpreted as implying that somethings is better than others is totally wrong and must be banned and stamped out.

Watch out, the thought police are on the prowl.

I was looking through my collection of baseball caps. I have one that was sent to me by the late Stu Richmond. Stu was a member of the AMA Hall of fame and a great designer and general modeler. His sons were big names in Pylon racing.

This particular baseball cap says "It is hard to soar with the eagles whne you are surrounded by turkeys" No one in Amercan clubs objected to these caps

I wore it a few times back in my control lines days. No one objected or took offense, they saw the funny side, of course that was about 40 years ago before the grannies had their senses of humour surgically removed..

I can imagine that if I wore it now half the posters on this thread would burst blood vessels or die of apoplexy.

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! LOOSEN UP OR YOU WILL DIE AS SOUR OLD MAIDS

Edited By Peter Miller on 01/07/2014 18:35:59

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I have no problem with you wearing that cap Peter - but there you go again. You can't just say you like the cap can you? - you have to imply there's something wrong with everyone who doesn't want to wear a cap like yours. They are to be written of as "grannies", "sour old maids" and any other disparaging remark that comes into your mind. I suppose its easier than actually dealing with their arguments.

That's exactly what I find so depressing. Those IC followers who can't seem to just say "I like IC", without adding a snide remark about electric power, the electric bods who do the same the other way round. The builders who can't make a positive remark about building without a sideswipe at those that don't build. An so on.

I am most emphatically not saying people shouldn't be enthusiastic about what they like, or that humour doesn't have a big place in our hobby. I'm just, as ever, sadden by the fact that there is a element in our hobby that just doesn't seem to be able to be positive about one without being negative about other people's choices. Maybe its just tribalism? And I'm pointing out that "its just joke" has been the defence of the prejudiced, misogynistic and xenophobic through history.

You challenge the value of "equality" .So, do I believe all modellers are equal and have an equal right to have what they do respected? You bet I do - and I'm proud of it! And that's another reason why I don't like seeing one group of modellers promoting a view that belittles another.

BEB

[Levanter]

As the OP, Peter has nicely squared the circle in my book. Oops!!! Perhaps I am being circophobic?

[Peter Miller]

Thank you BEB. You have made my point to perfection!

No where have I implied in anyway that any other aspect of the hobby in inferior.

I have indirectly stated my preferences by wanting that sticker and instantly you have A) assumed that I am denigrating everything else. and B)you have been insulting by saying that because I like stickers I am insecure.

When you think that someone has said something you don't like you instantly remove that posting but you feel that you can say I am insecure and then not apologise. and I can't removed the offending statement.

To me that is being a bully.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Rob Jones 2]

It will be a great shame if model building dies out.Back in the day, if you wanted to fly a model, you had to build it first. Now you can buy it ready made.

There is nothing wrong with this, I have a couple of Park zone foam warbirds.

But it is not real aeromodelling. And it will be a sad say when people believe it is.

[Peter Miller]

Having Reread the above I am even more amazed.

BEB states I think everyone should wear that cap. Just where do I imply that? No where.

No I referred to grannies who missinterpret everything to read what they want it to, i.e. if I don't say I like everything I I am knocking the things I don't say that I like.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

First I have never removed a post because I don't agree with it and you know that. Posts are only removed on very rare occassions because they breech the CoC. If I were to remove posts that I don't agree with I would remove pretty well all of yours in this thread - have I done so? No. What I have done is express my view. If you read my first post you will find I never said you were insecure, what I said was:

"I always feel that people who feel the need to put stickers up declaring their opinions are a bit insecure"

I was expressing an opinion. And I am entitled - as you are - to do that. I don't have to apologise for my opinion as long as it is expressed as just that - an opinion.

Your final comment I'll not even respond to - except to say that yet again you are playing the man not the ball. Calling me names is not a valid substitute for an effective argument.

Now, you seem to me (note that's a flag that this is an opinion) that you you always have to have the last word - so I'll let you. I'll not be responding on this thread again. I've made my view clear - I don't like stickers that promote one modeller's interest whilst simultaneously doing down someone else's interests. If you can't see that this sticker does that by implying that any modeller that doesn't build hasn't got "proper models" then there is nothing further to say.

BEB

[Pete B]

There isn't enough popcorn in the world for me to ever see a concensus on this thread so I think we'll call it a day, folks....