dx6 brownouts

[kc]

Pete, if Andy Kunz wont want to hear about non Spektrum Rx problem there is no point in mentioning him! This problem is that orange & Spektrum ( maybe they were fakes) Rx that worked perfectly with DX6i etc dont have any range with the new DX6. People have bought the DX6 and ex[ected them to work with equipment that worked with a DX6i. And it didnt.

[Pete B]

I'm sure, somewhere in this thread, someone mentioned using a Spekky Rx and having problems - I've offered a possible solution in the quest for an answer. If one isn't prepared to at least ask........

Spektrum are a commercial company who look after their own interests - they're not a charitable concern. If you want a solution to the Orange problem, contact Orange - and the fake Rx manufacturers, of course...

As others have repeatedly said, why on earth should anyone expect Spektrum to supply a fix on behalf of clone or fake products - particularly if nothing is broken?

Pete

[Phil Green]

Posted by Trevor Crook on 15/08/2014 13:16:12:

One of the clubs I fly with brought in a club rule a few years ago that 2.4G sets must use Tx's (or modules) and Rx's from the same manufacturer, the only exception being JR and Spektrum on DSM2.

 

I'd love to hear your committee give a technical justification to Simon as to why his Delta receivers are banned!

Cheers
Phil         

 

Edited By Phil Green on 15/08/2014 17:25:35

[Dave Hopkin]

I think one of the problems here, is we are mixing two different issues, true "brownout" (being a loss of lockon with the Tx when the RX input voltage drops below a (component dictated threshold) and "Loss of Signal" (being an break in Signal reception by the Tx)

True "Brownout" is totally internal to the model and Tx independent and given the battery supply is delivering a consistent voltage to the Tx - if you are running the Tx on the main flight lipo's and immediately prior to the brownout the motor was running properly it is highly unlikely it was a "brownout", if you are running on a separate Tx Batt, then that Batt could be the cause (modern digital servos drawing higher current than older ones etc) - It could be that Orange use/have used cheaper components with less tolerance to voltage drop?

Looking at the cases described in the thread its much more likely to be a "loss of signal" issue in this case its an generic issue with 2.4mhz not specific to Spektrum as the very short wavelength can be blocked/impeded by physical objects, so questions....

Aerial differences between the Dx6 and Dx6i?

Aerial orientation to the model?

Aerial layout in the Rx?

Dual Receivers in the Rx as opposed to single?

Rx installation?

Model Generated RF Noise?

External RF Interference?

Of course some of the cases will be that of some other cause of failure (its so easy to blame the Radio if we are honest)....

Cant think of any other variables off-hand

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by kc on 15/08/2014 14:47:30:

Pete, if Andy Kunz wont want to hear about non Spektrum Rx problem there is no point in mentioning him! This problem is that orange & Spektrum ( maybe they were fakes) Rx that worked perfectly with DX6i etc dont have any range with the new DX6. People have bought the DX6 and ex[ected them to work with equipment that worked with a DX6i. And it didnt.

And?

As has been repeatedly stated:

1. Official Spektrum advise is don't use anything other than an official Spektrum Rx.

2. Spektrum have no control or responsibility for other company's products.

If they worked before - great! If they don't now I'm afraid, in my view, that's just tough! Its neither Spektrum's responsibility nor problem! If it was then every time Spektrum update their system they would have a duty to be limited by the specification of every Mickey Mouse outfit that choose to clone their work. That's not a reasonable position. And they get out of that completely via item 1 above!

BEB

[kc]

The 'Head in the Sand' attitude of some people here is astounding! This is a safety issue that will not go away until everyone knows what is compatible and what is not. It is Spektrums problem when fake Rx branded as Spektrum work OK with DX6i etc and dont with new DX6. Especially when experienced pilots cannot identify fake from genuine and use them with new DX6 and crash due to lack of range.

As for Orange I pointed out that a large retailer is advertising them from their UK warehouse as "Compatible with all Spektrum/JR DSM2/DSMX 2.4GHz Air transmitters " This is either true or its not. We need to know!

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

By all means publicise your findings - talk to the BMFA, magazines, BBC Watchdog or whoever you feel is appropriate. The possible problem has been well discussed on this forum and I'm sure we'll all take note of the possibility of problems, with a combination which the manufacturer has always advised against using, when we're at our clubs.

But why can you not accept that Spektrum have no control over other people's knock-off equipment, whether copied or an independently developed product. What do you want them to do? Redesign their products each time someone puts something intended to be compatible on the market? Stop developing their products in case it causes problems with unauthorised copies?

As for your last point, you should ask the advertiser to justify the claim - or report them to Trading Standards.

Edited By Martin Harris on 15/08/2014 19:52:03

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by kc on 15/08/2014 19:25:44:

It is Spektrums problem when fake Rx branded as Spektrum work OK with DX6i etc and dont with new DX6.

No it is not! Any more than its Ford's problem when some "pattern" brake pads work and some don't! Spektrum tell their customers to use only genuine Spektrum Rx's - their responsibility ends there. It can't go beyond there - they have no control over Orange or HK or any other company.

I agree there is a safety issue - and its been made by people cloning other people's IP and then customers wanting to save pennies by buying counterfeit goods. How on earth can any of that be Spektrum's issue?

BEB

[Levanter]

Sorry kc. It is not "head in the sand" but clearly a different attitude, nor is it Spektrum's fault that non genuine parts don't work, nor does it make it right just because a large retailer advertises alternatives. If Spektrum wish to say something it is up to them but I suggest it is the other parties that should be making the right noises.

[Pete B]

Posted by Dave Hopkin on 15/08/2014 18:29:43:

Aerial differences between the Dx6 and Dx6i?

Aerial orientation to the model?

Aerial layout in the Rx?

Dual Receivers in the Rx as opposed to single?

Rx installation?

Model Generated RF Noise?

External RF Interference?

I can answer the first, Dave. The DX6i has one aerial which can be orientated by the user to provide the optimum radiated power to the model in flight. The DX6 has one aerial, fixed vertically, which requires an awareness by the user of the inadvisability of pointing the aerial towards the model in flight. That may necessitate a change in habit.

Personally, I think this a bad move by Spektrum.

As far as the other questions are concerned, if you can get an answer, you're a better man than I, Gunga Din....

The OP, for whatever reason, seems to have chosen to not answer any of the questions posed which may give us a chance to isolate the problem........ instead it seems to be just another anti-Spektrum rant....

Pete

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Posted by kc on 15/08/2014 11:09:22:

THIS IS A SAFETY ISSUE! If Spektrum know their latest DX6 is not compatible with Rx that are compatible with DX6i then they should state so.

That is a really really HUGE "IF" in there.

I think it's very likely indeed, that they haven't changed a thing in the RF section.

Imagine that for a moment, all this blaming Spektrum, and there's nothing different about the RF from this transmitter.

[Phil Green]

Posted by Dave Hopkin on 15/08/2014 18:29:43:

... true "brownout" (being a loss of lockon with the Tx when the RX input voltage drops below a (component dictated threshold) ... True "Brownout" is totally internal to the model and Tx independent...

I beg to differ! the term wasnt invented to describe a Spektrum failing, its been in use in digital electronics for decades and in that context describes the unpredictable behaviour of any electronics circuitry as (not when, as) its supply voltage dips below the minimum it requires to function properly. This would include soft switching, oscillation & ringing problems, overshoots, logic errors, random resets etc... For some reason the Spektrum fraternity has latched onto this term and tried to make it their own!

Cheers
Phil

Edited By Phil Green on 15/08/2014 20:23:10

[ERIC DODSWORTH]

the thread is going way off line here i am not having a go at anyone for selling stuff im not trying to get anything banned i want to now what has changed the dx6 is dsmx and dsm2 compatable does that make it less reliable on dsm2 than a dsm2 only transmitter if i can find out why it locks out then i can take steps to avoid it happening if it means ditching the dx6 i will if it means changing all my receivers i will go buy another make of radio (lost trust) its just annoying that i have no way of knowing that this problem would occur i sold my good jr 3810 that i bought to fund this radio so now im in limbo a radio with an issue and only one aircraft left i have to know that i won't rekit my last plane trying to prove a point my dx6 has lost me more models due to lock outs than i have lost to any other radio in 35 years i have crashed loads but they have been pilot error the spektrum seems to be hit and miss some flights were fine some locked out some recovered in the end i lost them all if i am the only one it is a rogue set if there are lots of people it is a fault

[Dave Hopkin]

Surely the answer is....

Spektrum AR610 £29.95

Orange R620 £7.90

Ebay R620 £8.00 to £14.69

So either Spektrum are adding a very large mark up OR Orange are using the cheapest possible components potentially with lower quality performance and a higher fail rate.....

As they say you pays your money and takes your choice...

My personal experience (DX5 then DX9)

Never had an issue with Spekky RX, have 2 Orange RX's only one of which will bind.....

But as I have only recently moved over from RC Boats I don't have the flying time to draw any conclusions

[ERIC DODSWORTH]

i may have sussed it i bought the wrong radio the dx6 is aimed at newbies people who upgrade buy the 8 and 9

the dx6 comes as dsmx and spektrum now only make dsmx so there is no reason why a newbie would want dsm2 so the radio only claims compatability

a newbie buying a new rx would have to buy dsmx so to keep the cost/profit margin all the effort went into dsmx and dsm2 was given little or no consideration

if a few old timers fall out with base model radios but 100s of newbies are brought into the fold horizon are happy

i have a 30 year old sanwa conquest that i use in the winter as it has low battery draw ideal for very cold weather when battery life is low don't think a 2.4 radio will ever make it to that age the cycle seems to be 3-4 years before it becomes obsolete that seems to be what has happened to dsm2

[Frank Skilbeck]

Posted by ERIC DODSWORTH on 16/08/2014 07:34:51:

i have a 30 year old sanwa conquest that i use in the winter as it has low battery draw ideal for very cold weather when battery life is low don't think a 2.4 radio will ever make it to that age the cycle seems to be 3-4 years before it becomes obsolete that seems to be what has happened to dsm2

I don't think so, the changes that have been made by some manufacturers have been due to the newness of the technology, once it has settled down then I don't think we will see much in the way of manufacturers changing protocols.

BTW my first radio was on 27mhz FM bought approx 6 months before 35 MHz came in.................

[John F]

This thread is getting very weird. Reading this after a while away it has degenerated into a "DX6 does not support DSM2" belief, based upon three aircraft crashes.

I am sorry but this is just plain wrong. The DX6 supports DSM2. There is nothing more to add, it does not support it any less and does not support DSMX any more than DSM2 and I am concerned that some claim, banging a massive drum, it is down to safety issues. There is no "accent" of DSM2 that has evolved to ensure the old Rx's can't understand or a "claim" that the DX6 is aimed at learners so they don't have to ensure it works properly. These theories are just bonkers IMHO and only serve to muddy the issue.

Spektrum know full well what they are doing. They invented the technology and release equipment that work with that technology. If they state it will work with DSM2 it will work with DSM2.

If you buy non Spektrum Rx's it is down to the manufacturers of those Rx's to ensure it works and has nothing to do with Horizon Hobby in the slightest.

Ignoring the word "brownout" there has been three crashes with kit that is unknown although range checks were supposed to have been done. That leads to only a couple of probable causes; one being the failsafe was set incorrectly to ensure the aircraft dived, or full rudder etc, another possibility is that you have a duff Tx battery causing the Tx to switch off (My old HiTech Tx did that), one other possibility is that the students aircraft were using setups with fake kit or very poorly installed Rx gear ensuring the aerials were obscured or a combination. It could also be a misunderstanding of the Rx gear and the radio was not set up properly.

If the Tx has been sent away and has been certified as perfect then it cannot be anything else other than issues on the aircraft rather than the Tx.

Edited By John F on 16/08/2014 09:18:41

[ERIC DODSWORTH]

2.4 came out because the 35 mhz band had become saturated there was no market for new gear so very low sales 2.4 changed that and radio sales went through the roof every time sales get low a new protocol will come out to keep sales level if 35 was so bad how come we have more unexplained crashes now than we did in the bad old days 90% of accidents were because of crystal clashes now its lock out/brown outs we could use a peg board to prevent clashes 35 seemed to have a lot better manners people would only turn on where and when they were supposed with a bit more awareness to their surroundings the 2.4 band is getting increasingly busy phones wifi baby moniters toys all fighting for the same space 35 is now relativly quiet not had a clash for many years as i dont fly electric models electrical noise is not an issue think ive talked myself back into 35mhz

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I am sorry Eric but those observations simply don't match with my experience.

2.4 has been a major positive development for our hobby. Its more convenient and its more robust in terms of its link. To suggest that we are having more crashes due to radio faults today than in the past simply isn't true in my experience and that of the vast majority of modellers I suspect.

Again I spell it out - even more pointedly this time - I am 99.9999% sure that the problems you are experiencing are "local" - ie in the models you are trying to fly. I agree with John F - either duff copy Rx's, poor installation or incorrect Failsafe set up etc. As I said earlier you need to "look nearer to home" for the solution to your problem. Simply "bad mouthing" Spektrum will not resolve your issue. And I re-iterate, I am not a Spektrum user and have no reason to particularly defend them!

I would also suggest that you heed the (three times) request of PeteB that you answer some of the questions that people on here have put to you - that way they might be able to help you! But if you continue to fail to do that then people will simple drift away and stop trying.

BEB

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

I agree with John and BEB. In my experience at two clubs and numerous fly ins, 2.4Ghz has proved way more reliable than 35Mhz ever was.

The claims of interference and glitches on 35Mhz were common, some of which would have been Rx installation/battery/switch/crystal issues, some of which would have been Tx problems such as dirty aerials and crystal issues. Some would have been real interference, in particular in electric models.
This is without even mentioning shoot downs.

Then 2.4Ghz came along, and things were transformed. Pilots are generally having to admit to pilot error when they crash these days!

With a good installation, using manufacturers receivers, along with a decent battery and switch, then we can trust the radio more than ever before.

What has crept in that is causing problems, has come from the race to the bottom on price. Even very cheap servos can be intermittent, sometimes dragging Rx volts down and causing a Rx restart. Cheap ESC's can have poor BEC's which overheat, shutdown while hot, then appear perfectly OK once we get round to testing them again. A single poor connection in a servo plug carrying Rx battery volts can wreak intermittent havoc too.

It's very easy indeed to blame the radio. But we're using complex systems with many different components.

Edited By Chris Bott - Moderator on 16/08/2014 11:36:09

[ERIC DODSWORTH]

i have cured my spektrum issues the model shop i bought it from is selling it on as used and giving me a credit note telling me my instalation is wrong on a model with 6 months of flying behind it sucks its not my fault if the only item that changes is the tx the tx is where i start looking if my airbourne instalation was at fault my aircraft would have crashed long ago i had an issue with a dx7s and lost faiht slowly i used a module to get some faith in the system and after two years of fault free flying i bought the dx6 and it all went pearshaped my aircraft were all flight proven there all now skipped giving a spektrum engineer a list of components wont bring my models back the tx was the only change made