No model Flying in the Cardiff area 3-5 Sep 14

[Steve Houghton 1]

Posted by avtur on 03/09/2014 18:34:16:

I have no doubt that Wales will benefit from the global publicity attracted by this event, there is a tremendous history and culture in Wales which I am sure will spark the imagination of people around the world as a result of this event. That will be good for Wales and good for the UK.>>

Avtur

I live in the heart of Newport, and I can tell you that I have not spoken to anyone here who believes that Newport or even Wales as a whole will benefit from this summit. They said that about the Ryder Cup, and the only people, or should I say person, to have benefited from that was Terry Matthews, the owner of the Celtic Manor.

The Ryder Cup was supposed to put Newport, "on the map"! Well I don't know which map they were talking about but, it isn't on any beneficial map I've seen, and the same will go for the summit. In six months time I bet if you spoke to an American and mentioned Newport, or Wales, they wouldn't have a clue what you're talking about. Most Americans don't know where Wales is anyway! Is it in London, they ask?

I even doubt Terry will be making that much money out of this. The Manor is usually fully booked anyway, so he won't be making anything extra on that. The Manor has 8 kitchens and Willis the butchers, (meat suppliers to the Manor) have stated that the Manor has NOT increased their order, however, other hotels have. So some hotels between Swindon and Swansea will benefit.

Businesses around Cardiff Castle have already said that their takings are down this week already, due to the fencing around the castle and it being shut to the public. Some buildings in Cardiff are being used for meetings and the usual staff have been told not to come to work and, cheek upon cheek, were told they would have to use two days annual leave to cover it. So I bet they aren't feeling any benefit, and on top of that, hundreds of working hours will be lost by those employees having to stay at home.

Other businesses around Newport have had to close this week also because they are within the vicinity of the Manor . Parents have had to use annual leave to look after their kids because their schools are having to close. So who the hell in Newport is going to benefit from this? No one is going to come for a holiday in Wales saying, "we came because the NATO summit was held here".

Yes, General Dynamics have just received a £3.5B order for Scout armoured vehicles, but that was on the cards to happen anyway.

Why oh why can they not hold these summits on military bases, where security is already in place, where they are easier to secure and not disrupt the lives of hard working, ordinary people.

Yes, I believe in NATO, I was in the RAF a million years ago and in today's age, it is very necessary with the threats we have in the world today but, there are better places to hold these things than in urban locations.

As for me personally? I am unable to fly until Saturday anyway due to work, but I am having to leave home an hour earlier, and finish work an hour earlier, to try and beat the worst of the traffic where we have been told to expect significant delays and road closures.

[J D 8]

My club has a no flying on site [military site, large ex in progress] from 25 August to 6 September.

[Olly P]

Evening All,

I haven't been back to this thread for a while, as I have been a little busy.

I just want to make one post and then I will back away and let it be argued out. Those on here who know me well will know what my secondary line of work is, and the types of security environments this means I work in. Please accept that I do know what I am talking about on this type of security operation.

1) The thin end of the Wedge - I am torn on this - I accept that it is a shame that such measures are evaluated as required, despite the cost, for the security of our guests, and I do hope that this sort of measure never becomes routine. I also know that NOTAMs have been around for a long time and are frequently used over limited areas to ground level for all none-notified flights (can't remember exact term, been a long day). This hasn't had a major impact on the hobby and is unlikely to.

2) All angles need to be 'boxed off' - I have done the type of assessment the security officers for the summit have done, and the simple answer is that you will never do everything that you want to with the resources you have, so you do what you can, evaluate the risks and act accordingly.

I will finiish with a personal ancedote and an explination of why I think it is relevant. I was serving as part of UNFICYP - the UNs longest running peace enforcement mission, on the island of Cyprus. We where based in Nicosia, the capital City, and looked after the centre section of the buffer zone (BZ) between the Republic of Cyprus in the south, and the Turkish occupied north.

The BZ has a track and trace radar system which covers most of it, including all the military encampments, which warns of things like mortar attack from the flight profile of the projectile. We had been unaware of this untill 04:30 when the automated attack alarm sounded and I ran at full pelt in full fighting order down 4 flights of stairs, to the ammo store, and then armoury and then back up 4 flights to my stand too position on the roof.

Apparently a stalling hang-glider looks just like a mortar at the top of it's flight.....

Hopefully you can see the other reason that there may be a limit on flying of all descriptions in the area, other than the clear picture to identify potential threats, this type of incident, sending all the NATO leader scattering and the securiy forces into a high state of alert is exactly the type of tactic used to gather information on contingency plans (see Zulu - "he is counting your guns"

Please folks, it is only 3 days, and believe me it really is justified.

[Erfolg]

It is very easy to take a view that the measures are necessary, because officials say so. It is very much braver to go against the flow and take the position of Pastor Martin Niemoller and challenge, although he supposably regretted not initially challenging.

Those who suggest that this is most probably is the thin end of a wedge, could well be correct.

As for secrecy, in the past it has mainly been used to keep UK citizens in the dark, about costs etc. It seems that the real threats to the UK, (our potential enemies), have often known far more than than the UK citizens, possibly not the fine detail, although enough to cast doubts on the real purpose of much of the secrecy. Yes some aspects of UK life and projects, do require some secrecy. Although  is it counter productive in this case?

There is a great danger in taking the easy option and say, we should not rock the boat and be compliant with the wishes of the authorities, just think Rotherham.

If the measures are justified, the UK population should know more and then can be enlisted for free, to be the eyes and ears for the security services and be trusted to go the authorities with potentially useful information, identifying those who pose a real threat, who ever they are, from what ever part of the population they may come.

In this case, those attending the NATO conference are less likely in my opinion to be threatened by say Russians, rather more by those groups who do not believe in Democracy as many of us understand it.

The real issue is the clumsy, authoritarian manner that the authorities have acted. No attempt to take the wider population with them, Just a "do as we say", tut, tut, so 1920s mentality.

Edited By Erfolg on 03/09/2014 22:42:22

Edited By Erfolg on 03/09/2014 22:43:33

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Erf - don't you think its stretching credibility a bit far to compare what is said here with Martin Niemoller!

BEB

[andyh]

Posted by Erfolg on 03/09/2014 22:38:16:

It is very easy to take a view that the measures are necessary, because officials say so. It is very much braver to go against the flow and take the position of Pastor Martin Niemoller and challenge, although he supposably regretted not initially challenging.

I hereby invoke Godwin's Law:

**LINK**

[John F]

Posted by Erfolg on 03/09/2014 22:38:16:

It is very easy to take a view that the measures are necessary, because officials say so. It is very much braver to go against the flow and take the position of Pastor Martin Niemoller and challenge, although he supposably regretted not initially challenging.

Those who suggest that this is most probably is the thin end of a wedge, could well be correct.

We've been building roads ever since the Romans in 43AD so if we are still on the thin edge of the wedge, closing roads to protect people, I am happy with that! How is it clumsy?

These measure are not because "officials say so" it is because they are necessary. You don't have to follow the official line like a sheep akin to 1920's mind set to understand that. If you think closing roads and limiting airpspace for three days is wrong please look at the worldwide threats as they currently and let us know how best to protect the most important worldwide security meeting in the world.

[Stevem3akm]

Why not hold it at NATO headquarters? Regards, Steve.

[Tony Bennett]

this is getting silly.

they are shutting air space for three days yes three days.

no big deal really is it.

there was a no model flying rule for the 2 weeks of the olympics and every time they have a cycle race through our village, they shut the roads for a whole day.

so what is the issue.

[Braddock, VC]

Posted by Tony Bennett on 04/09/2014 08:39:32:

this is getting silly.

they are shutting air space for three days yes three days.

no big deal really is it.

there was a no model flying rule for the 2 weeks of the olympics and every time they have a cycle race through our village, they shut the roads for a whole day.

so what is the issue.

It's called forumitis whereby handwringing and teethgnashing and OTT comments abound.

On a personal level I think the nato chiefs are paid sufficiently to take the risk of terrorism in their stride without all the additional security and thus release the police to arrest innocent parents who disagree with the arrogance of some medical staff. Much more important.

We drove past the site the other day and saw the "ring of steel" first hand, my wife commented if we were to breakdown there'd be no way we could get behind the armco into a safer position.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Tony Bennett on 04/09/2014 08:39:32:

this is getting silly.

they are shutting air space for three days yes three days.

no big deal really is it.

there was a no model flying rule for the 2 weeks of the olympics and every time they have a cycle race through our village, they shut the roads for a whole day.

so what is the issue.

I totally agree Tony!

This is minor inconvenience, not the onset of a military coup! Those charged with the security of this event are professional people, experts in their field - or at least they should be and I'm confident that they are. They will have been asked what they need in order to reduce the threat to an acceptable level of risk. They have asked for these provisions - which I am happy to leave to their judgement as they know a lot more about it than I do - not the politicians. The politicians - those who might have another agenda, just possibly though I very much doubt it - then have a simple choice. Accept the expert advice and implement what they say they need in order to reduce the risk of attack to acceptable level. Or reject the advice and think that you know better and anyway it might upset a couple of aeromodellers! If I was that politician, knowing how to cover my backside, I'm sure which line I would take,....

So, I suggest we park the conspiracy theories back on the shelf with the books on New Age Medicine, Astral Forces and The Power of Crystals, get over it and get back to enjoying ourselves flying once all the "important people" have gone home.

BEB

[Erfolg]

The point of the Pastor Martin Neomoller, is that injustice in society starts by not questioning, being a compliant citizen. In the case of the Pastor, amongst the most terrible crimes you can think came to pass.

Just by saying something is fair or right, does not make it so, whatever some politicians and pressure groups believe.

There is a need for the BMFA not just to act as a conduit for official governmental bodies, but to interact. Perhaps they have done so, although I guess the membership is unaware as a whole , if so.

Is it necessary to close the airspace for 20 miles radius, is one such discussion to be had. Almost as an aside, we now have had the M60 with cones out and speed restrictions for probably 20 miles of carriageway, with no work on the carriage ways now for over a month. In the case of Cardiff it could be that officials are concerned with autonomous air vehicles like quads, where 20 miles is seen outside their operating range. If so, then our models are not the same risk, there being at best a couple of miles controlled range. If the issue is autonomous air vehicles, I suspect that the restrictions would not stop any one posing a threat from launching such a device. So is the 20 miles set because the authorities have some devices which render GPs on such devices inoperable (would that affect my sat nav), or maybe my RC model, thereby posing a risk to the community,

The recent issuing of an European Arrest warrant for a couple and their child indicates, indicates what can happen without challenge,( although raised in Parliament by Reece_Jones). No court order had been made, no crime committed. Authority often does what it thinks is right, because it can. Challenge is necessary, then if justified can be implemented with a broader community agreement.

 

Edited By Erfolg on 04/09/2014 10:41:04

[Tony Bennett]

i think the reasoning is that if no one flies it would be easier to pick out suspected terrorist flights as they would not have to investigate 100's of model flights in the hope of catching the one naughty one.

which makes sense to me.

i don't remember there being this much hoo har over the 2 week Olympic restriction on model flying.

[Alan Gorham_]

On another forum where the BMFA Club Support Officer posts, his response to queries about why the ban is in place is primarily that there will be a great deal more low flying helicopter traffic conveying VIPs.

[John F]

The thing is, Erfolg, as has been said before it is easier to monitor the threats when there is control for a couple of days. One or two rogue aircraft, model or full size, would be esaier to spot rather than having to filter through many.

In the grand order of things is it really necessary to challenge the security services over your right to fly a model when the worlds security experts are meeting to discuss worldwide concerns?

The hippy, new age, thinking of challenging everything is just misplaced as it really is just a case of mistrust of everything deemed to be "official", and quoting Neomoller really is OTT.

These are the concerns they are discussing : **LINK**

Does any of this sound like a simple case of trying to stamp authority over us for no reason?

Edited By John F on 04/09/2014 11:33:41

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

The issue isn't one of putting model flying above international security. The point I and some others are trying to put over is that this ban is not in place to protect against a specific threat but appears to be there to make things easier for the security services.

This in itself is not a bad thing and may be felt to be justified but any hostile threat will not come from legitimate users. I accept that low level flying can be compromised by model aircraft but isn't this the case 24 hours a day 365 days a year over the whole country? This is precisely why the ANO only allows flight of larger models up to 400 feet outside controlled airspace. Simply introducing a blanket ban which is allowed to go unchallenged simply reinforces any agenda to put further controls on our activities and as is evident in the impending legislation in the USA cannot simply be dismissed as scaremongering.

By meekly accepting the (very possibly justifiable in this case) demands of the security services for a blanket ban - this time midweek and possibly of little consequence to local flyers, By simply accepting this ban, I just feel that we are in danger of diluting any future arguments against less worthy controls.

I can assure John that I couldn't be further from being new age or hippy and have already advised against flouting the ban.

[John F]

Yes the ban is about making it easier to spot threats. I fail to see anything wrong with that. Another reason for the ban is that it helps to protect against a specific threat; airborne. Then again, I am in the RAF and I can see the reasoning. Before anyone says I am blinkered, brainwashed or some other silliness, as has been inferred earlier in the thread, I am not, I just understand some of the threats.

This challenge all thinking really is one of those "fight against the system no matter what" kind of stand offs. No-one has answered how this ban can migrate into an agenda to put further controls on our activities - just saying "this is the tip of the iceberg" isn't reasoning it is fearful thinking, misinterpretation and a lack of understanding.

There really is nothing to "challenge" here with the ban in Wales, it is just security measures to keep folk safe. How can this be seen as the start of things to come?

The legislation consultation in the US is not related as that is simply to restrict flying to certain weights, professional flying and limits on FPV to be kept within visual range. It is neither a nail in any coffin nor relevant.

If a restriction on our hobby comes along it will be 100% guaranteed to be challenged fiercely by all involved but this is not the start of it nor is it related.

Edited By John F on 04/09/2014 12:48:54

[Erfolg]

Oh yes, I can see that it easy to do, just like coning and speed restricting the M60, yet like the M60 I am sure claims can be made that workers lives are statistically saved, even though non are present.

I suspect, and it is only a suspicion, that a blanket ban is easy to implement, no thought required, just a gut instinct it helps in securing security.

I am also pretty convinced that spotting even a relatively large quad-copter programmed for way points etc., is no easier to spot, with present technology, even with all RC models grounded.

I would find it far easier to defend the action on the basis, any unmanned flying devices within a 5 or so mile radius cannot be flown, as we are taking measures which will interfere with their control systems. If this is so, making this public is probably no secret to those who would seek to do harm. In that case being open and honest would be far more understandable to all.

I do hope you do not consider me to be a "new age hippy", although a one time socialist, I have come to see the general bankruptcy of the left. Nor would I consider myself right wing. I place myself in the category that works for my family and myself (the selfish right to the left) and would not work if that end was not sufficiently rewarded. I am sure that many of us have worked in industries which have required us to be discreet, yet do recognise that some aspects are about hiding things from your own citizens or even lazy thinking, as not all is necessary.

[Codename-John]

Perhaps the easiest way of ensuring security would be for Us and America (NATO) to stop arming people all throughout the Middle East, NATO Destroying countries in the name of "Democracy" or "Humanitarian missions" or even as in the case of Libya "time limited, scope limited Kinetic action", Overthrowing the Government of Ukraine for the benefit of Chevron, Monsanto etc, NATO breaking treaties set up with Russia in the 1990`s.

NATO, Us, Saudi Arabia and America are probably the cause of most of the trouble in the world at the moment, From Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine, Israel etc. If we kept out of other countries business we wouldn't need Millions spent on security, Perhaps instead of south wales having to spend that sort of money on a fence and some police, they might be able to afford to cut the grass more than 4 times a year in the rest of Wales so the kids could play football etc

If our politicians wern`t such warmongering, interfering, lying and Hypocritical creatures and started working on improving the world for its inhabitants rather than tearing it apart in their own interests, perhaps people might start to like them, and they wouldn't need such security measures in the first place

Edited By Codename-John on 04/09/2014 18:57:45

[J D 8]

Saw one of those American gun programs the other day, when they fitted an FPV quadcopter with a 9mm pistol and were able to hit targets from 100 feet !!!

[kc]

These are the warmongers and yet they are actually so cowardly they wont even put up with all the risks ordinary people endure everyday in our cities and expect roads etc kept free for their quick escape. Seeing tanks in Wales to protect them is appalling.

Meddling further in the Middle East will be a disaster and will surely bring a revenge attack in Britain. We need to put our own house in order and stop children being brainwashed by religion and ending up terrorists.

[Dave Hopkin]

Posted by kc on 04/09/2014 19:18:51:

These are the warmongers and yet they are actually so cowardly they wont even put up with all the risks ordinary people endure everyday in our cities and expect roads etc kept free for their quick escape. Seeing tanks in Wales to protect them is appalling.

Meddling further in the Middle East will be a disaster and will surely bring a revenge attack in Britain. We need to put our own house in order and stop children being brainwashed by religion and ending up terrorists

As an ex Army Office, I find that comment quite offensive, you will find that those who actually end up getting Mud/Dust (delete as theater appropriate) are the very last people who actually want a war, it is the ignorant, jingoistic, civilians who cause and start wars.... those are the people YOU elect

Those Senior NATO commanders all started off their military careers and platoon commanders and understand full well the implications of their decisions on the men they command

[Codename-John]

Posted by Dave Hopkin on 04/09/2014 19:45:26:

it is the ignorant, jingoistic, civilians who cause and start wars

These sorts of people you mean - **LINK** ?

[John F]

I like the fact that you post a link to an unconnected occurrence as if it is proof of something Codename.

+1 for everything Dave above says.

Plus . . . .It's an armoured vehicle, not a tank, KC.

This thread is getting quite circuitous.  I'm out.

Edited By John F on 04/09/2014 20:09:25

[Codename-John]

Posted by John F on 04/09/2014 20:04:55:

I like the fact that you post a link to an unconnected occurrence as if it is proof of something Codename.

+1 for everything Dave above says.

Plus . . . .It's an armoured vehicle, not a tank, KC.

This thread is getting quite circuitous. I'm out.

Edited By John F on 04/09/2014 20:09:25

The war of aggression in Iraq carried out by NATO in 2003 has no connection to the NATO summit today ? oh my days, Have you ever heard of ISIS ?

There are even Warships in Cardiff bay, what difference does it make if KC describes something a little bit mistakenly ?

 

Edited By Codename-John on 04/09/2014 20:19:01