Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 What makes you think Futaba is the best radio? BEB PS Says he who used Futaba for years - but changed to something else over a year ago! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanR Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 BEB, am I right in thinking that you changed to Taranis and, if so, did it's reputation for a rock-solid RF link have anything at all to do with your decision or was it purely down to the programming possibilities? Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben goodfellow 1 Posted January 4, 2015 Author Share Posted January 4, 2015 ive owned my dx18 since it came out about two years ago , this is the first problem ive had. have i read somewhere or am i mistaken that you can tell by the rx flashes of lost binds ,brownouts and whatever else can go wrong . pete i cant really test it at the moment as its all stripped out . am going to set i all back up on the bench and check everything as best i can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I think you probably mean Chris Bott re the testing, Ben. This is the lost signal/brownout indication on DSMX - for the AR8000 at least - don't know if your Rx is the same: QuickConnect with Brownout Detection Should an interruption of power occur, known as a brownout, then the system will reconnect immediately thanks to QuickConnect technology. The LED on the receiver will flash slowly, indicating that a power interruption has occurred. A power interruption occurs when the receiver voltage drops below 3.5 volts. When power is restored, the receiver attempts to reconnect to the last two frequencies that it was connected to. If the two frequencies are present the system typically reconnects within one second. Red LED Hold Indicator The AR8000 features a red LED that indicates the number of holds that have occurred since the receiver was last powered on. The LED will flash the number of holds then pause. Holds are reset to zero when the receiver is turned off. During the first flights of a new aircraft, Spektrum recommends to check the red LED hold indicator. If it's flashing, it's important to move or reposition antennas until no hold occurs. On subsequent flights, the LED hold indicator can be used to confirm RF link performance. Edit - having put that up, I'm not convinced you get the brownout detection on DSMX myself.... Pete Edited By Pete B - Moderator on 04/01/2015 17:15:49 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bott - Moderator Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I can confirm that Pete - Just downloaded the AR9110 manual. Quote:- Following are the operational differences: Brownout Detection- Not Available on DSMX Receivers DSM2 receivers feature Brownout Detection that flashes the receiver’s LED if a power interruption occurs. While DSMX receivers have QuickConnect and recover instantly from a power interruption, the architecture of DSMX prevents Brownout Detection when operating in DSMX mode. Flight Log Recording- Fades Higher than DSM2 Note that DSMX hops through the band while DSM2 finds two quiet channels and remains on those channels. Consequently because DSMX operates on quiet and noisy channels, it’s common to have more Antenna Fades than when using DSM2, when used in busy 2.4GHz environments. When taking flight log data readings, the Frames and Hold Data are important and should be used a reference while Fades are insignificant due to the nature of frequency agile systems. A 10-minute flight will typically result in less than 50 Frame Losses and no holds. Edited By Chris Bott - Moderator on 04/01/2015 17:43:56 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Posted by IanR on 04/01/2015 16:42:56: BEB, am I right in thinking that you changed to Taranis and, if so, did it's reputation for a rock-solid RF link have anything at all to do with your decision or was it purely down to the programming possibilities? Ian Hi Ian, the main driver in the change was the greatly enhanced programmability and the sheer flexibility that Taranis offered. I had been disillusioned with Futaba's extremely tardy product development and high prices for some time. I never once, in many years, experienced any problem with Futaba that was not in the final analysis my own fault. The systems were rock solid. But I have been using Taranis for a year now - many, many flights - and so far I can say the same about that. Not a single unexplained event - not even a twitch. I have limited direct experience with Spektrum. I do own an old DSM2 DX6i. But I only use it on indoor BNF models and the simulator. However, as an instructor I get to use all sorts of kit; Spektrum, JR, Taranis, Futaba etc. etc. and my opinion is that all modern radios are pretty "bullet proof" TBH. So I don't really buy the philosophy that one brand is inherently "more reliable" etc. Even very cheap sets are very reliable as regards the RF bit - the economies tend to manifest themselves in lower quality gimbles, switch-gear, packaging, displays etc. BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 ... oh dear ... this has got me going as well now, and left me not quite sure where to go from here ... As Ben Goodfellow I also have the DX18QQ, but don't get me wrong I love it, ... user friendly programming, ... and the layout ,etc. When I first bought it at the beginning of last year, from new straight out of the box I first range checked it down at the field on the 'range check' reduced power setting, and I was lucky to get even 8 or 9 paces away from my model and lost signal. Even on full power range I would lose signal at around 50 paces. So I returned it to Horizon and they replaced the RF board and I had it back at the end of the week, I thought this was very good service, but still disappointed that it had got passed any checks or quality control with a dodgy RF board before it got into the model shops ! ... Anyway all went well, had some great flights, ... electric, ... 50cc and 100cc petrol, ... slope soaring all last year. Then late last year I was flying my favourite moulded electric glider, I climbed high, did some thermalling, then turned inverted into a half loop/dive to build up speed, I've done this many times before with same glider, so I knew what I was doing and what to expect, I intended to level out to do a fast fly past and hear it whistle past .... except .... it wouldn't fully pull-out of the dive. I had plenty of height, it wasn't way out in the distance, so I wasn't too worried at that point. I tried every thing ... elevator ... ailerons ... but got no response. Then at the very last moment I got my signal back, ailerons and elevator were working, .... but too late, my lovely moulded glider hit the ground and broke it's back, the fuz broke in half after the wing root. I've been flying 30+ years, I'm 'B' certified, and I know it was definitely signal loss. In fact as someone else mentioned earlier, I also wish it was pilot error so I could blame myself instead of now doubting my radio. After collecting the bits, I had left the radio gear switched on, back in the pits everything appeared to be working fine !! Range checked ... OK, all control surfaces working as they should. Double checked back home, got a mate to twiddle the Tx sticks as I walked further away from him up the road, all ok within the expected range checks. So where do I go from here ? I've invested too much time and money to risk any more models, as well as safety of others. I could return my radio to be checked out as I did when had range problems new out of the box, but now I'm not very confident it still wouldn't happen again. I was using a Spektrum DSM2 Glider Rx with the aerial antennas l exiting outside the fuz, and on 6v so I know it wasn't a brown out, it's possible that if I had used a DSMX Rx I may have recovered the signal much quicker in time to save the model, but still the fact remains that I still lost the signal. I've gone and now bought a data logger, so when the weather improves I'm just going to fly my cheap foamies, expendable models ( if there is such a thing, I suppose some models are more expendable than others ). All I can do is fly them and keep checking the data logger for loss of signal and take it from there. Even thought of changing my radio, but as reading here others have had similar problems with other brands. This is a first for me, all other crashes I've had I put my hand up and admit to obvious 'pilot error'. So I dunno, maybe I should just put it down to ... bad luck, interference, gremlins and goblins or whatever, and just hope it doesn't happen again ..... Just my tuppence worth .... Ronaldo Edited By Ronaldo on 04/01/2015 18:23:27 Edited By Ronaldo on 04/01/2015 18:25:15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben goodfellow 1 Posted January 4, 2015 Author Share Posted January 4, 2015 well this getting interesting.. would be good to hear off the other 100 and odd dx18qq users if they had problem i only know 1 but hes packed flying in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolstonFlyer Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Ronaldo, did you see the service bulletin from Spectrum in 2013 about issues with some DSM2 receivers, you didn't say which RX you were using. I think there was a software update to fix the problem, have you updated the DX18QQ? DSMX TRANSMITTERS OPERATING IN DSM2 MODE 01/28/2013The Spektrum Team has been investigating sporadic reports from DSMX transmitter owners using their products in DSM2 mode. We have discovered that in some rare instances, DSMX equipped transmitters with the Product ID (PID) within this bulletin, may have a backwards compatibility issue that could cause a "hold" with the following superseded DSM2 receivers: AR500, AR6100, AR6100E, AR6110, AR6110E, AR6200 and AR6300. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cymaz Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 There seems to be a pattern emerging...all ( including my futaba ff9 + tm8 module) planes just seem to suddenly head towards the ground and finish there! When the post mortem is done range check and everything is good....someone tell me I'm not making this up. Edited By cymaz on 04/01/2015 18:46:03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Hi WolstonFlyer,, thanks for your input. Yes already seen that DSM2 Rx bulletin. I was using the AR9300 carbon fuselage 9 channel Rx, so I don't think that's the problem. But no .... I have not updated the Tx software. I'm afraid I'm of the old school ... 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' class. I've had such a great year flying with no problems at all with my DX18QQ previously, so much so that I became reluctant to make any changes or updates while it was working well. But maybe I'm missing something here and should update asap ... I'll log in to spektrum again and check it out. Regards Ronaldo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 .... maybe we all should all go back to good old reliable 'control line ' flying cymaz ...... .... but then again maybe not, I would have to sit down and recover my bearings after each flight ...... and probably feel the need to puke ... bad enough just watching the speed C/L models and pilots going round and round at the Nats ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cymaz Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I'm now starting to believe its not the Tx,Rx, installation or make. There is something or someone broadcasting interference on 2.4 Dont know how,why and to what means but similar tragedies with completely different makes and set ups. The only similarity is 2.4. Can an electronic boffin come up with any ideas/ theories?? Edited By cymaz on 04/01/2015 20:00:42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GONZO Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Part of the conditions of use of the '2.4gHz ISM Licence Free Band' is that all users must accept interference from all other users. I, as a full 'ham' licence holder, can transmit at 400W on part of the band. I'll leave it to your imagination what that may do to a simple RC Rx if its within range! On another point, I've previously posted on the ETSI EN 300 standards changes (Futaba 14SG Tx software update V5) that are now going to be applied to all new RC equipement on the 15/01/2015. Spektrum users may be interested to read the link to a just started thread concerning the consequences to backward compatability with DSM2. **LINK** Edited By GONZO on 04/01/2015 21:13:36 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 And that Gonzo, is why (I assume) promted to new EU regulations about enforcing the "listen before talk" protocol as a mndatory requirement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GONZO Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 AFAIK as a licence holder for the use of part of the 2.4gHz band I am not subject to the conditions that the licence free users have to operate under. Also, all the old protocol equipement that is already in use can continue to be used as it is 'grandfathered' in. Thus, I shall continue to use long into the future my Futaba FASST sets (this protocol no longer complies to the new regs) that have a duty cycle 250% greater than the new limit and that do not LBT. Therefore, as I see it, all the newer LBT sets will have to give way to my FASST non LBT transmissions giving me a possibly more secure RF link in this increasingly busy band. How much 'traffic' in the band is required before the new LBT sets have dropped enough frames of data before they start to exhibit slowed response and then drop into Rx failsafe??? This has strayed of the OP somewhat but I think that cymaz may well have a point when he infers that the 2.4gHz band may be the problem and not any make of RC. FHSS is interference resistant(especially NB interference) and robust but not infalible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 If you wish to continue discussing aspects of the ETSI EN 300 standards changes, folks, can you do so on the original thread, please? That will keep this one clear for discussing Ben's problem, ta Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bert baker Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 So what were do we go from here. Has anyone had a receiver sent back for repair or the transmitter. Has any good come from sending them back. I would still be a bit nervous of using a receiver fresh back from repair/ service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben goodfellow 1 Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 I've been on to hh it's getting packed up tonight and sent tomorrow they are going to look at the ar 9110 Rx too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben goodfellow 1 Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 If it comes back with a report saying no problems were found . I will not be happy putting it in a new airframe. I KNOW it was some form of Los , even if some on here will never e convinced it wasn't dumb thumb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Posted by robert Jones 14 on 05/01/2015 14:17:48: Posted by Percy Verance on 04/01/2015 18:23:54: Let's have a straw poll- who has had radio problems, and what make was it.I'll bet Futaba is still the most reliable make (once you get into FASST and beyond, so comparisons are fair- just because their are still Challengers providing sterling service they should not be compared with the latest models from other manufacturers). And all thing being equal statsitcally that should show the most populous brand has the most problems and wont tell you a thing, also as Spektrum have a good grip of the ARTF market they will probably have a higher percentage of inexperienced flyers thanmany other makes that will probably bias the numbers that way too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Please stay on topic, folks - this isn't the thread for Futaba discussion or straw polls etc... it's all been done to death before. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masher Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Posted by ben goodfellow 1 on 05/01/2015 14:00:29: If it comes back with a report saying no problems were found . I will not be happy putting it in a new airframe. I KNOW it was some form of Los , even if some on here will never e convinced it wasn't dumb thumb If it helps, here is my experience: I had an issue with a well flown, tried and tested IC Acrowot - one of my favourite models. One day I was positioning for take off and motor suddenly went to full, I had no control, plane took off in wrong direction, engine cut, plane stalled and crunched. Gutted, couldn't believe it, suspect this dreaded loss of signal. I KNEW it wasn't something I did on the sticks. Checked out model, radio and all components now working all Ok, tried Tx and another model all Ok even at near out of sight range. At home, checked everything couldn't find issue. Sent Tx and Rx (Spectrum DX8 & 6210? Rx) back to HH with explanation. They turned it round very quickly with NFF (no fault found). As a good will gesture they replaced Rx all FOC. I took their word for it that the "LOS" was not due to the radio itself. Did extensive bench testing and eventually found an issue by tugging on all components and connections - it turned out to be (hard to describe without a photo really) one of the plastic retaining lugs within the battery switch connector - the 3-way connector that holds the +,-,control signal crimped connectors, had started to fracture and no longer secured the positive crimp properly. Under high load (waggling all servos), low charge or vibration from engine, the connection was becoming at best high resistance, at worst open circuit. This caused LOS as the Rx etc was loosing power. Visually hard to see and under static conditions it all worked fine. Failsafe, as we all know, is useless if the battery power is lost so that will do nothing for you. Perhaps a bit embarrassing for me since I have some decades experience as an electronics engineer but the point I'm making is, it can be just as likely to be one of the other components as the radio system. HH were correct with their NFF statement and I have flown many times since without further issue. Sorry about the ramble in trying to give an alternative possibility Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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