Jon H Posted September 27, 2016 Share Posted September 27, 2016 Posted by Focae on 27/09/2016 22:25:24: I bought a Tony Nijhuis FW190 plan/wood pack/vac parts pack for an excellent price on ebay some time ago fully intending to build it electric powered as that was all I have ever flown. I have now been well and truly converted from the 'dark side' and think I should built it with a glow engine in it....suggestions? From the Laser range an 80 would be the ideal powerplant. Make sure you keep the tail as light as you can because the nose is very short on the 190. I just finished a 63 inch Hurricane of (sadly) 10lbs and the 80 pulls it nicely. Clearly a similar engine from another brand would be tolerated Edited By Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 27/09/2016 23:07:46 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 27/09/2016 23:02:23: Posted by Martyn K on 27/09/2016 22:25:00: If you buy 4 gallons, weston will ship their fuel for free You can mix and match as well. Martyn Weston fuel is not compliant with Laser warranty spec and we do not recommend it. Just curious, but what is the objection to Weston Fuel? Oil type or composition perhaps? Edited By Cuban8 on 28/09/2016 07:51:48 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 We have asked for details of the lubrication package and have been refused. Our standing policy is that if you dont know whats in it then dont use it. I have also noticed a trend in the engines returned for service and the degree of internal deterioration when run with this fuel. I cannot 100% say the fuel is to blame but the similarity of the issues between engines of different ages from different customers is hard to ignore. My own testing with the fuel returned unsatisfactory performance as well so i cannot recommend it. It is unfortunate as we would like to support other UK manufacturers, but in this instance we cannot do so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Cooper Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 I have no desire to start a war, but I too am curious to the objection to Weston fuels. Having spent decades trying EVERY proprietary brand of fuel, I alighted on Prosynth about 17 years ago, and it was a revelation. . My engines - two stroke or four stroke - loved the stuff. They ran faster, smoother and cooler, and the bearings didn't wear out like they did with the other so-called quality fuels. As a bonus, the inside of an engine, when run with Prosynth from new, still looked brand new even after five years of regular use -- and wow do I use them. Of course, I don't know if other modern fuels have improved or are better because, having found the best, I don't really see the point of experimenting with anything else. B.C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Hilton Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 ,I have just striped a saito 180 which was run on Weston pro synth it was a bit of a mess to say the least . The bearings were in a shocking state with rust and the crank case was full of crud Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Cooper Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Posted by Alan Hilton on 28/09/2016 09:07:23: ,I have just striped a saito 180 which was run on Weston pro synth it was a bit of a mess to say the least . The bearings were in a shocking state with rust and the crank case was full of crud Alan That's the sort of thing which I used to see when using other fuels - especially if they had castor oil in them (don't get me going on that godawful stuff). It's a funny old world, eh...!! B.C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Im not interested in a war either and have no doubt that we can all exchange anecdotes supporting one or other side of this argument for years to come (as with most things modelling) but to be honest the only thing that is important to know is that the fuel is not compliant with the warranty spec of Laser engines. We as a manufacturer and designer of engines have concluded through testing and other means that it is not suitable for our product, do not recommend it and will not warranty engines run on it. The positive traits you have listed above have not been in evidence in our engines and in fact the opposite has usually been true. My testing of the fuel will continue when time allows but as im sure you can imagine, it takes a year or more of flying to test something like this. If in the future this changes through some collaboration with weston and further testing of my own then i will gladly update my recommendation but for the moment we do not recommend it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel R Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 27/09/2016 22:22:33: I know model shop leeds will ship, as will elite models I think. No idea what the shipping charges are like though. The cost of the base fuel should not be more than 16 or 17 quid. Unless you are flying heli's or using a ys 5% nitro is more than satisfactory for all fixed wing engines Elite do Model Technics 5% Propower for £19 a gallon and postage (which took 2 days) was £5. Same postage cost for any amount of fuel, although when you get to six gallons you're over £100 and they post for free. They also do the firepower plugs. Presumably a phone call could source any of the other MT aero blends - the others listed online were for cars. No connection - happy customer, British made kit, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Pro power for 19 quid is not a bad deal. Its got a bit more oil than we like for Lasers but you wont do any harm to the engine, just make a mess! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Welford Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Jon, I always run my Laser 4 strokes on Model Technics Laser 5. Talking to Neil Tidey at OW a few months ago he mentioned that he diluted his fuel by mixing 1 gallon of methanol to 2 gallons of Laser 5 to reduce the oil content. Out of interest: are Laser warranties still valid running on 2/3 the MT Laser 5 oil content? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Posted by Robert Welford on 28/09/2016 12:12:13: Jon, I always run my Laser 4 strokes on Model Technics Laser 5. Talking to Neil Tidey at OW a few months ago he mentioned that he diluted his fuel by mixing 1 gallon of methanol to 2 gallons of Laser 5 to reduce the oil content. Out of interest: are Laser warranties still valid running on 2/3 the MT Laser 5 oil content? Yup, 10% oil (ML70 or Klotz) is all good. You can either mix up the fuel the way Neil has suggested or take a gallon of pro power 10% nitro and mix it with a gallon of methanol. This gives 9% oil and 5 nitro. I am running two of my own engines on 5% nitro and 4% oil. So far no issues at all but i dont recommend customers try it just yet as mixing fuels often causes confusion. Recommending fuel is really hard. We have had guys destroy engines mixing their own fuel when we recommended 20% oil. When it came back we would find there was no oil in it at all. Recently i had the same situation with a customer who cooked both of his 240v's. Investigation at this end revealed no oil in the engines and significant overheating. I recommended 10% oil to him, and he assured me thats what he used, but there was no oil (i really mean no) at all in the crankcase and the traces of oil on the conrod were burnt and brown like you would see on the exhaust. Even though he used a recommended fuel we could not warranty the engines as he either mixed the fuel wrong, used a poor quality oil, or overheated the engines so much that the oil burnt off. To give an idea of how hot the engine had been, the oil in the backplate was also burnt onto the ali and the bronze bushes had begun to discolour. But, horror stories to one side, if the fuel is mixed as described above everything will be fine. If anyone wants to experiment (accepting the risks) with low oil content (5% or so) then let me know how you get on. In the case of our engines the worst damage you will do is melt the big end of the conrod so its not a hard thing to fix. I wouldnt suggest trying it on an engine over 10 years old though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Smith 50 Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 align-trex.co.uk shipped last time I ordered some, the price didn't seem spiteful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel R Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 28/09/2016 13:08:00: Yup, 10% oil (ML70 or Klotz) is all good. Jon Any thoughts on relative merits of the model oils in use? I know ML70 has been around ages, is Klotz much better? And the Fuchs oils (which internet rumour suggests is in Weston mixes) are they much different? And MT have their own "EDL2" now... Confused! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solly Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 28/09/2016 08:42:01: We have asked for details of the lubrication package and have been refused. Our standing policy is that if you dont know whats in it then dont use it. I have also noticed a trend in the engines returned for service and the degree of internal deterioration when run with this fuel. I cannot 100% say the fuel is to blame but the similarity of the issues between engines of different ages from different customers is hard to ignore. My own testing with the fuel returned unsatisfactory performance as well so i cannot recommend it. It is unfortunate as we would like to support other UK manufacturers, but in this instance we cannot do so Jon, my information is that the oil used is called Aerosave, manufactured by Fuchs in Germany. Like many modellers I have used Prosynth in all my engines, including Lasers, for many years and have never had problems. I do however flush out my engines and use after run oil after use. If this procedure is followed I fail to understand how an engine can end up "full of crud". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Guys im gonna have to put my foot down a bit here. I am not going to get drawn into a week long Q&A about this. We don't recommend it, its not compliant with warranty spec and that is pretty much that. We are the manufacturer of the engines and this is our recommendation. If you feel so inclined, or if you believe you are better able to decide what is suitable for our engines than i am, then feel free to ignore this recommendation and use whatever fuel you wish. Just be aware that i will have zero sympathy if it all goes wrong Im not trying to upset anyone here or rubbish the product (all my comments are related to Laser engines). I hope my comments above come across somewhat in jest as intended but i want to be clear that no amount of questions about why or tales of how wonderful your experience has been will change our recommendation. We went through all this years ago with castor and still do. I have to beg some people not to put duraglo in our engines and even when i tell them, as here, that it voids the warranty they say 'oh but i have used it for years, the internet told me this' etc etc. I also get it with our running in instructions as they are apparently wrong and you cannot run a new 4 stroke leaned off at max rpm right out of the box. As it happens, you can, and indeed need to to get the engine to run in correctly. So please guys, do me a favour and just trust me on this As for Klotz KL200 techniplate/EDL/ML70 etc etc any of them are fine. We have used all of them for years and its all good. If you want really detailed information you are better off calling model technics and asking for John. He knows his stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 I think the whole hobby would fold up without it! I try to give people the best advice i can. Its just really hard when that goes against what they think is the correct way to do something. Its not helped by my disagreeing with many manufacturers. It makes it sound like i am on a one man crusade to change everything when in reality im just trying to prevent people wasting their hard earned cash and make sure they get the best gear and the best chance of enjoying their models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 Posted by Tom Sharp 2 on 29/09/2016 19:31:01: Don't worry Jon, I would follow you into the jaws of Hell That's where I'm likely to end up so ill save you a seat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanN Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 29/09/2016 21:20:07: Posted by Tom Sharp 2 on 29/09/2016 19:31:01: Don't worry Jon, I would follow you into the jaws of Hell That's where I'm likely to end up so ill save you a seat Would you mind leaving me your engines before you head down that way. Can't see four strokes - even Lasers - being much use down there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 Quite so. I'll bet it's electric only! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Posted by Martin Harris on 29/09/2016 23:09:10: Quite so. I'll bet it's electric only! oh dear lord no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Richardson Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 No Martin hot air or steam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Steam is ok, i dont mind a nice steam engine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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