Re: Death of IC

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

John, please read your PM's.

Thanks

BEB

[Erfolg]

CL is definitely a niche activity, even when I lived near Barton, it is a very small number of modellers, as a fraction of our general hobby, never mind the UK population.

There will be incremental improvements in Lipos, although, in essence the electro chemistry what it is. It will take another type of battery to make another step change. Apparently Lipos as a concept has been around for a long time. What prevented exploitation was the technology to get over the production issues. I am sure that some of the better informed Electrical Engineers on the forum may have an idea as to which battery formats theoretically have even greater potential. I do not. As an aside, there is money to be made apparently with respect to the elements that can be used in Lipo batteries, that is beyond lithium.

[Jez Saunders]

I am no electrical engineer Erfolg but I understand from my step father who was involved in the oil business that batteries with higher energy densitys than lipos are available , but they have the issues of being exstreamly volitile if handled incorrectly. The problem I imagine is developing this technology so that the chemistry of these batteries is safe to let out to the general population.

[Phil 9]

30cc size models seem to be becoming the popular coice for the sport flyer powered by seemingly good value 2 stroke petrol models. I started in the hobby about 10 years ago and at that time a 30cc model was rare on the average Sunday session. I was heading in this direction also untill i realised the cost of my hobby was increasing (after petrol models were sold to me as cheaper than glow). I also found the larger models less convenient to store and transport. I went back to smaller models of 40 size electric and 60 size glow models. Currently the glow models seems to get the most air time. But people will choose what works best for them. Your flying site, budget, available storage space, your mode of transport and preferred model type will all have a bearing on you power choice. At one point electric was the only way I could fly when I had to rely on the bus to get me to the flying field

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[Denis Watkins]

Posted by Jez Saunders on 04/02/2018 10:00:45:

I am no electrical engineer Erfolg but I understand from my step father who was involved in the oil business that batteries with higher energy densitys than lipos are available , but they have the issues of being exstreamly volitile if handled incorrectly. The problem I imagine is developing this technology so that the chemistry of these batteries is safe to let out to the general population.

Exactly Jez, current useable chemistry and technology, used in phones, and our gear and formula 1, and in outer space,

Was formulated and developed years and years ago, and is well known to boffs.

A colleague, professor at Liverpool University, assures me that they have years old power sources so volatile that the casing had to be handled like nitro glycerine, and not dropped ! ! !

Mere rocket fuel is a case in point and solid fuel from the 1960s and 1970s, the list goes on.

Glow fuel and lipo represent a relatively safe way for us to get airborne models

[Focae]

I started this hobby in the modern era of lipo batteries, brushless motors and foam artf’s. I was a diehard leccy flier until I bought a balsa model with a two stroke ic engine at a bargain price. I was hooked in an instant!

The balsa model is far more satisfying to fly in any wind and for all the problems with mess and starting etc that have already been voiced in other posts, I prefer that to the one big disadvantage of electric flight.....battery management.

I still like my electric models but charging up a set of batteries, or worse, discharging unused ones is very time consuming. Added to that, the cost of anything larger than the ubiquitous 3S 2200mAH lipo is a game changer for me. I don’t see ic dying just yet.

[Cuban8]

Perhaps the title of this thread should have had a question mark after it?

In my experience, if it's convenience and a (relatively) simple means to an end to get a model flying, then go electric. For character and life in a model, then for me, it'll always be a fourstroke glow (or petrol when it' s perfected).The ritual of fuelling up, starting, taxiing out with the model popping away and trailing a gentle stream of exhaust smoke is all part of the enjoyment.

I like electric and I have several models that are powered in that way ranging from a 1500W aerobat to a 350W sport type.They're nice to fly when I feel like it or don't want the all the glow paraphernalia tagging along with me.

Yes, electric can be given a 'soul' by the addition of sound systems and equally, FS glow is becoming cleaner by the use of better fuels as we have discussed - noise shouldn't be an issue for sensible users, unless their flying site is overly sensitive - and in any case, modellers are just as likely to get fed up with a din as anyone else.

I like the choice, one is not better that the other, just different, and one chooses that which suits your needs for the hobby as a whole or simply how you feel on the day.

[Former Member]

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[Jonathan M]

Posted by Focae on 04/02/2018 11:16:46:

I started this hobby in the modern era of lipo batteries, brushless motors and foam artf’s. I was a diehard leccy flier until I bought a balsa model with a two stroke ic engine at a bargain price. I was hooked in an instant!

The balsa model is far more satisfying to fly in any wind and for all the problems with mess and starting etc that have already been voiced in other posts, I prefer that to the one big disadvantage of electric flight.....battery management.

I still like my electric models but charging up a set of batteries, or worse, discharging unused ones is very time consuming. Added to that, the cost of anything larger than the ubiquitous 3S 2200mAH lipo is a game changer for me. I don’t see ic dying just yet.

That mirrors exactly what I was trying to say several pages ago. IC won't die - not in our lifetimes - because it offers a different flying experience to a significant proportion of modellers. Electric will continue to improve in increments and will continue to dominate the market, but we aren't exactly at some binary gate.

Notwithstanding its provocative title, this has been an interesting thread. The less messianic voices seem to be those that fly both.

[Peter Christy]

Like many others of my era, my introduction to powered model flying came via control-line. Back then, RC was hideously expensive and not terribly reliable! My early CL fleet was an approximately 50/50 split between diesels and glow motors. Glows were lighter and higher revving, diesels required less "field equipment" to be carried - quite important when you were cycling to a flying site!

Whilst fresh diesel fuel smells wonderful, the exhaust residue does not, and seems to permeate all your clothes! It also soaks into the model more then glow residue, and diesel models tend to end up looking grubby quicker!

Fast forward a few decades, and I now have a small number of LiPo powered models - mostly foamies of one kind or another. The foamies - especially the scale ones - look good and fly well. But they tend not to handle wind or turbulence as well as a balsa model. Also, although they are quite robust, the surface finish can deteriorate very quickly - especially when flying from rough sites! "Hangar rash" is definitely an issue with them. In addition, the radio compartments tend to be very small compared to their balsa equivalents, due to the thickness of foam necessary for structural integrity.

On the other hand, electrics are mostly very quiet - mine are almost inaudible - which means that flying sites that would otherwise be impossible are suddenly opened up.

Electric advantages are convenience, cleanliness and quietness. IC advantages are robustness of the models (out of necessity, because of the vibration and fuel soak issues) and the ability to spread the fuel costs better. I would also add longevity to IC pros, because I have engines that are 50 years old, still hauling large aerobatic models around the sky. Whilst brushless motors may last well, my experience with LiPos is that their usable lifespan is fairly short - and they are NOT cheap!

Electric can be flown closer to civilisation due to the absence of noise, but is often more fragile when flown from rough, remote strips. (The exception, of course, is IC models converted to electric - perhaps the best of both worlds?)

Basically, its horses for courses. Both IC and electric have their pros and cons, and whilst electric will no doubt account for a lot of models going forward, I don't see IC dying out just yet.

Just my 2p worth!

--

Pete

[Jez Saunders]

Percy, if you limit production of something disirable you always have someone who wants it. A industrial entrepreneur visited Morgan motor cars years ago and critised there production rate ! It works for them, there order books are full for years.

[Former Member]

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[Cuban8]

It was the late Sir John Harvey-Jones who virtually gave Morgan up for dead - IIRC he also visited the up-market drinks maker ' Innocent' and gave the same opinion...........wrong on both counts.

[Former Member]

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[Cuban8]

I wonder how important the US market is for Laser? From the many DVDs of US events that I enjoy watching during the winter months here, the Americans love their big Saitos and OSs along with the exotic and costly Moki radials. Appears to be a market that's bucking the trend?

[Former Member]

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[Former Member]

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[Nigel R]

"Is it me, or is there less of an electric following in the US?"

Less population density, fewer noise sensitive sites.

Larger cars, larger houses with more storage space, larger models less hassle to move or store.

I suspect fuel cost is lower, certainly petrol is.

[Geoff S]

I'll be taking a few 2 stroke glow engines to a swap meet at the end of the month (Irvine, ASP, OS and MDS (to give away ) ). It'll be interesting see if they sell or if there's even any interest.

Geoff

[Phil 9]

Posted by Geoff Sleath on 05/02/2018 14:27:19:

I'll be taking a few 2 stroke glow engines to a swap meet at the end of the month (Irvine, ASP, OS and MDS (to give away ) ). It'll be interesting see if they sell or if there's even any interest.

Geoff

if there are a giveaway I will have them 😊

[Former Member]

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[MattyB]

Only to be expected - it's simply supply and demand. There must be far more people exiting the hobby in their later years selling extensive engine collections than there are newcomers looking to take up IC aeromodelling. I know a few enthusiastic glow heads, but I don't know anyone who has bought a new 2S glow in the last 5 years as there is such a healthy supply of cheap unused/nearly new engines available on the secondhand market.

[onetenor]

I wish I knew where these CHEAP 2 strokes were . Glows or diesels I love 2 strokes but am hard up. Love the Cox glows and the small British diesels and glows..If anybody is giving any away in any condition I'll take them.Mind you I'll take bigger ones too LOL.  Incidentally where can I get or have made a carb assy for an AMCO .87cc?.I was promised one but I can't get a response from the guy now.

Edited By onetenor on 05/02/2018 16:31:56

[Former Member]

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[Nightflyer]

The thread has really generated some interesting views on electric and i.c. and some good arguments for each. I think the key point is that model flying still cries model aeronautical engineering (hark back to SMAE times) and will for years to come (so I hope). Because of that I think that while there is a large diversity in the range, size, materials, model function, etc, there will always be a range of power sources be it i.c. with glow, diesel and petrol, gas turbines, or with electric, motor choices, battery or solar cell technology etc to power them.

I would hate to see the demise of the range of models or power choices as I think we are currently at an all time high on the choices open to us, which enables the modeller to be truly creative and have a lot of fun.

I think one of the big challenges we modellers face, as we have for years, is the perennial challenge to retain our flying sites. Despite all the fantastic efforts by individuals, and the trade to improve noise and performance of i.c. engines over the years. There will always be some people not placated, and who will always object (and may still do with electric power).

I would certainly agree that when it comes to scale models it is always great to hear a nice sounding 4 stroke or jet engine for realism, but now you can fit sound effect boards to electric aircraft with noise maps to suit your model's full size engine, you can make your scale model sound like the real thing. How long before people start fitting more powerful sound effects amplifiers...... and local's start complaining about the noise?