Latest CAA Update

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Martin Harris on 05/09/2019 10:02:56:

Posted by Steve J on 05/09/2019 09:28:58:

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 05/09/2019 09:18:26:

All the negativity around at the moment is doing more harm to y sport than anything else get out and do some flying!

Perhaps there is a lesson there for the BMFA. Perhaps the BMFA could keep clubs and members better informed as to what is going on.

Steve

Perhaps another very much larger organisation could learn that too much open discussion, infighting and revealing of proposed policies can weaken your negotiating position?

And perhaps the constant Brexit comments are best left out of this, some time ago it looked like modellers had a better deal than it looks now, only for the government to renege on it.

[Phil Green]

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 05/09/2019 09:18:26:

The situation at the moment is very fluid, neither the final registration requirements for association members or the insurance implications are in any way clear yet.

Registration and insurance are not the major concern though Andy - registration is what it is, and insurance can be sorted. To me, a far greater concern is that by July 2022, all model aircraft including free-flight will need to have active ringfencing and electronic conspicuity including location tracking - without these, you cannot fly - and that under 18s are not allowed to own a model at all.
I see two possible 'positives' - that the DfT agree to disassociate us from drone users (this will not happen),
or, the proposed regulations as a whole are relaxed (this will also not happen). Registration, insurance and £16 is a smoke screen we need to see through

JMHO of course

Cheers - Phil

 

Edited By Phil Green on 05/09/2019 13:08:09

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Chris Berry]

Posted by Phil Green on 05/09/2019 10:43:46:

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 05/09/2019 09:18:26:

The situation at the moment is very fluid, neither the final registration requirements for association members or the insurance implications are in any way clear yet.

Registration and insurance are not the major concern though Andy - registration is what it is, and insurance can be sorted. To me, a far greater concern is that by July 2022, all model aircraft including free-flight will need to have active ringfencing and electronic conspicuity including location tracking - without these, you cannot fly.
I see two possible 'positives' - that the DfT agree to disassociate us from drone users (this will not happen),
or, the proposed regulations as a whole are relaxed (this will also not happen). Registration, insurance and £16 is a smoke screen we need to see through

JMHO of course

Cheers - Phil

Where does it say all model aircraft will have geofencing and EC? I may have missed it but stand corrected if I have.

[GONZO]

Try CAP 1789

[Chris Berry]

Last year the CAA issued height exemptions to all members of the BMFA, LMA, SAA and FPVUK. That suggests they have confidence in those of us who bother to join the associations and therefore it’s likely they have confidence in clubs.

The exemptions were issued prior to Vere coming on the scene. That speaks volumes to me.

[Cuban8]

Posted by john stones 1 on 05/09/2019 10:05:31:

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 05/09/2019 10:00:20:

Posted by Cuban8 on 05/09/2019 09:39:32:

Let's not forget that we're just mulling over various ideas and possible future scenarios here - not actually making law. A few mates chatting in a virtual pub but without the face-to-face interaction. However, what we say on all sides of the argument is reflected in the hundreds of BMFA clubs up and down the country, so good to see that Andy S. is keeping tabs.

I don't consider it negative or harmful to be worried about things that are seemingly out of our hands & I still hold out hope for a last minute change in the rule makers stance, my positiveness.

Keep calm and go flying.

Edited By Cuban8 on 05/09/2019 09:40:32

Potential new blood to our sport will run a mile if they read this thread.

Yep and it ain't helping at club level either.

Who knows what potential new participants in our hobby/sport will make of it? I'd suggest that many younger people are far more likely to accept beaurocracy than some of us older types. Just look at the fuss that's made when applying for even the most menial of jobs these days. CVs, group meetings of job candidates, form filling, first, second, third interviews are very much the norm I'm told. So why shoud a few tick boxes and sixteen quid put new blood off if it comes to it?

Absolutely nothing like that when I was looking for my first job in engineering back in '73 - "what do you like doing son"? the personnel officer said to me as a 16 years old school leaver. "working on my motorbike and flying model aeroplanes" said I. "What do you think this might be" he said showing me a bit of mechanism. I replied "looks like some sort of pump". "Close enough" I said and he smiled

"Right, we'll try you out in our R&D workshops", "see what suits you best" I remember the personnel officer saying. That was that, fifteen minutes at best. Happy days before HR and the hi-viz vest was invented.

 

 

Edited By Cuban8 on 05/09/2019 11:50:50

[Chris Berry]

Posted by GONZO on 05/09/2019 11:16:47:

Try CAP 1789

Which section describes EC and geofencing for all model aircraft?

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Not sure what you're saying C8, I left school and started at T'pit on the Monday, I could have left Tuesday and found another job, and started Wednesday. Those days are gone.

I figure if we approach the £16.50 and the tick box with a smile on our chops, instead of the bottom lip trembling, we'll get more new members, or in short, the doom n gloom does my head in.

[Erfolg]

Chris the points you have made are very pertinent. My thoughts are we are a long way from what was promised, perhaps better seen as indicated, that we would continue as in the past. The other side of what has happened is that some of the proposed restrictions have been relaxed, know doubt due to the BMFA negotiating team and possibly the support that individuals made via the various avenues of lobbying.

The remarks with respect to Baroness Vere. She may be have been the minister for the Dft. Her going will make little if any difference. The strategy and documents that do and will affect us are the product of a civil servant and a team. In their job of developing and supporting business in the UK, The concept that autonomous aerial vehicles operating below 400 feet, to the advantage of the UK economy will be theirs. Setting out an environment that would encourage and allow this, will be theirs. Even more importantly the careers and possible promotions will be intrinsically linked in the short and possibly the longer term, in keeping this process going to a success.

Changing Vere changes little, it is the person who accompanied her at the various meetings who has a lot of longer term influence. Possibly saying nothing, other whispering in the ear of the Minister, as to what and why some things are important as far as the Dft sees things.

It is becoming apparent, that the BMFA is aware of forthcoming threats. We cannot be complacent.

A little earlier I thought,  perhaps I will take up model yachts in the local lake, that is the requirement for transducers on models happens and is expensive or my models are unsuitable.

Edited By Erfolg on 05/09/2019 12:14:02

[GONZO]

Posted by Chris Berry on 05/09/2019 11:57:48:

Posted by GONZO on 05/09/2019 11:16:47:

Try CAP 1789

Which section describes EC and geofencing for all model aircraft?

Its spread throughout the document and a thorough read and re read is required. But, for starters there is a summary chart at the end on page 32. Also, for starters try article 20 and article 22. There is a 'legacy' arrangement with a termination date of June 30 2022. After then ALL UAS(RTF, ARTF, KITS, DRONES ETC) must be fully compliant and are required to have CE marks showing their category( C-0, C-1, C-2, C-3, C-4) from which one can then determine site and airspace requirements(A-1, A-2, A-3). Planes are UAS. Don't think in terms of model planes, we are not a separate classification.

I'm sure Steve J will put right any errors I've made. I find all this bloody unnecessarily convoluted, probably by design of the DfT.

[Cuban8]

Posted by john stones 1 on 05/09/2019 12:01:54:

Not sure what you're saying C8, I left school and started at T'pit on the Monday, I could have left Tuesday and found another job, and started Wednesday. Those days are gone.

I figure if we approach the £16.50 and the tick box with a smile on our chops, instead of the bottom lip trembling, we'll get more new members, or in short, the doom n gloom does my head in.

Just a little anecdote to illustrate how since the late 70s and early 80s (incidentally coinciding with the availability of computers that you could use at home and in the office) we've been subject to an increasing weight of red tape and rule making. I'm just saying that perhaps younger folk who have no knowledge of an earlier and simpler past, take blind beaurocracy more in their stride. Whether that's a good thing or not is debatable - but not now. I heard somewhere recently that millennials are a depressed generation unlike previous others, and that social media is to partly blame. Now that's something that 'does my head in' as well.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Cuban8 on 05/09/2019 12:48:04:

Posted by john stones 1 on 05/09/2019 12:01:54:

Not sure what you're saying C8, I left school and started at T'pit on the Monday, I could have left Tuesday and found another job, and started Wednesday. Those days are gone.

I figure if we approach the £16.50 and the tick box with a smile on our chops, instead of the bottom lip trembling, we'll get more new members, or in short, the doom n gloom does my head in.

Just a little anecdote to illustrate how since the late 70s and early 80s (incidentally coinciding with the availability of computers that you could use at home and in the office) we've been subject to an increasing weight of red tape and rule making. I'm just saying that perhaps younger folk who have no knowledge of an earlier and simpler past, take blind beaurocracy more in their stride. Whether that's a good thing or not is debatable - but not now. I heard somewhere recently that millennials are a depressed generation unlike previous others, and that social media is to partly blame. Now that's something that 'does my head in' as well.

Ah, fair enough, what's a millenial ? I'm off to cut my sons hedges cheer him up.

[Nigel R]

Gonzo, I seem to remember reading that self assembled kits (laser cut box of bits, scratch builds) don't have any of that requirement. Only ARTF types. Even for ARTF the CE marking requirements were minimal. Anything without self guidance, i.e. a drone brain, had no conspicuity requirement *. It all got more complicated the instant the thing can guide itself and do waypoints etc etc.

* I think. This is from reading through the document once.

"I heard somewhere recently that millennials are a depressed generation unlike previous others, and that social media is to partly blame"

Don't conflate correlation and causation.

[Peter Robinson 9]

Hi

Just been reading this forum has anyone thought about with location tracking that the CAA/police could fine people (by post?) for infringing e.g height regulations or going out of a certain area because of the model being tracked? These settings could be set by a central control centre.

Just a thought.

Pete

[GONZO]

Nigel, I've read so many interlinked and dependant documents its a nightmare. I would agree with Phil G's assessment that even privately built models will have to comply, by 30th June 2022, with EC and geofencing. Any future newcomer, old or young, to this hobby will be put off by just reading and understanding the regulations.

[Former Member]

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[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Chris Berry]

Electronic Conspicuity on CAA website.

There are two different documents in circulation. The EASA one and the CAA one. They seem to be quite different and as the CAA are in charge here and have published it in August, thats the one i'm focusing on.

CAP 1777 Mar 2019 CAA

Some extracts by searching key words. Model Aircraft are mentioned once and UAS around 30 times.

Page 6

3. At the heart of our strategy is the adoption of interoperable EC solutions in targeted blocks of airspace to: enhance situational awareness; transform airspace by integrating different types of operation (e.g. general aviation, military, small commercial operators); and lay the foundations for new users such as unmanned aerial systems (UAS) to operate far more extensively than they do today (i.e. beyond visual line of sight or BVLOS).

Page 9

Intended audiences The intended audiences for this call for evidence are set out in table 1. Sector Stakeholder group All airspace users General aviation (including but not limited to fixed wing light aircraft, gliders, paramotors, hang gliders, parachutists, model aircraft operators and balloonists). Charter and business aviation (fixed wing and rotary) Scheduled commercial air transport Offshore helicopter operations Helicopter emergency medical services and search and rescue Military airspace users UAS operators Space planes

Page 19

Airspace access and capacity impacts: The impact on airspace access and capacity can be assessed in terms of changes to the total number of airspace users that can access blocks of airspace and the volume of users that can be accommodated in a given timeframe. The main improvements in airspace access fall to GA users and UAS operators because: • The full and permanent known environment created by the requirement for all airspace users to transmit EC information is a foundation from which to develop and deploy solutions for airspace integration and for UAS operators to fly BVLOS in uncontrolled airspace. The demand for UAS operations is forecast to grow significantly over the next decade. By 2030, UAS operating at lower altitudes are expected to make up a significant proportion of all air traffic movements. In the same timeframe commercial and GA traffic levels will continue to increase. Comparative reductions in airspace capacity may arise from the ability for UAS operators to fly BVLOS in uncontrolled airspace because the net increase in unmanned traffic movements in uncontrolled airspace and may at times reduce the volume of available capacity for conventional manned airspace users.

 

Page 26

Airspace access and capacity impacts: The impact on airspace access and capacity for manned airspace users are likely to be limited for the same reasons as the safety and flight efficiency impacts. The improvements for UAS operators are also likely to be limited. Although UTM providers can use the full and known traffic environment to offer BVLOS operations, far fewer UAS operators require access to the airspace above 5,000ft.

 

Response to the consultation earlier in the year

**LINK**

Edited By Chris Berry on 05/09/2019 14:01:57

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Chris Berry]

Yep, the man himself!

[KELL]

I’ve decided to sign up, take the test, pay my fee and enjoy 2020 at my local patch. Worrying about things that may or may not happen is just wasting time. I’ve personally known 6 people who were worrying about the the rights and wrongs of Brexit in 2016. Sadly they are no longer with us. What’s the point in worrying. Enjoy today !!!!

[Jason-I]

Posted by Martin Harris on 04/09/2019 09:53:29:

Posted by Jason-I on 03/09/2019 21:46:19:

.... clarifying, in law, the airspace ownership rights of landowners....

Careful what you wish for...that can work both ways and certainly in the case of our club would destroy our ability to fly anything larger than park flyers, 3D models or (ironically) drones if our neighbouring land owner were to restrict overflight.

I take your point if you are overflying somebody else's land, however, if landowners airspace rights are not clearly defined in law, what is stopping the government from dividing the sub 400ft airspace up and selling its usage rights off to the highest bidder?

[Cuban8]

Posted by KELL on 05/09/2019 19:01:36:

I’ve decided to sign up, take the test, pay my fee and enjoy 2020 at my local patch. Worrying about things that may or may not happen is just wasting time. I’ve personally known 6 people who were worrying about the the rights and wrongs of Brexit in 2016. Sadly they are no longer with us. What’s the point in worrying. Enjoy today !!!!

That's one way of looking at things, I suppose. I'm not losing any sleep over what the DfT are trying to do to us, but I object strongly to being treated and thought of as a mushroom by those at the top. Perhaps not kept totally in the dark but definitely the other part of the saying.