Max Thrust Riot - Upgrades

[Keith Miles 2]

Peter,

I think I've already answered the question you pose. I have no idea what other "out of the box " Riots are like compared to mine but would expect that they would be little different based on figures commonly being given for current draw and based on the confirmed current rating of at least one component and the highly likely, albeit unconfirmed, rating of the other.

The ESC is 40A rated. The 3511 motor is probably no more than 30A rated. The battery is 11.1volts.

A 330-350w power system, which the 3.7lb standard Riot, therefore, seems to be, works out at around 90watts/pound. Reference to numerous websites on the subject therefore puts the Riot in trainer/slow scale territory, something that does not, as both I and others have said, match the marketing hype.

It could be argued that if the Riot did match the hype, very few people would feel the urge to upgrade it unless building one up from parts.

Indeed, the designer himself seems to have confirmed, somewhat paradoxically, that it is difficult, if not impossible, to design a model to satisfy two camps! Precisely.

Yes, we can discuss the varying levels of satisfaction that we each gain from flying any given model but the mathematics is not a matter of opinion and we cannot defy the established laws of physics!

It is also certainly true, after flying my Wot4, and other similarly performing IC models for so many years, that the Riot currently seems to me, unless I change my flying style to suit the model as I have also said, to be somewhat short of the enjoyment factor.

So, a double whammy!

And I'm again in agreement with Colin in respect of cheap shoes and why I have decided not to spend any more money to turn them into posh ones.

 

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 06/01/2020 18:58:13

[Bruce Collinson]

Keith,

Yes, George’s LiPos are branded Purple Power and whilst undoubtedly dearer than stuff from Hobbyking etc, are priced similarly to the perceived higher quality items such as Tattu. I haven’t had a single dodgy one.

Peter, that makes complete sense. There was a strong rumour 30 years ago that nylon monofilament fishing line, besides only being made by a relatively small number of producers worldwide, was often deliberately labelled and sold with a lower breaking strain so that many users would regard it as strong. A micrometer gave the game away.

BTC

[Keith Miles 2]

Bruce,

Thanks for that.

Funnily enough, “George” came up in a conversation I was having yesterday with a fellow flyer which resolved the mystery!

I had no prior knowledge of him and, being mainly an IC flyer have only ever ordered a 4Max Tx battery from them!

Wiser now. 

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 06/01/2020 23:08:00

[Keith Miles 2]

Slightly off topic but, purely out of interest, I looked at the Ripmax recommended 40/46 equivalent set up for an EP Wot4.

It seems that it might work out in the region of at least 120w/lb on the 4S/40 set up with an equivalent power increase to 150w/lb on the 5S/46 set up.

If my rough estimates are correct, educational in several ways!

So, both the Riot (the lighter model) and the Wot4 (the heavier model) are pretty much of similar design and size but with a significant difference in their power/ weight ratios. And in their total cost, of course, the latter can be had for about 140 quid, the latter could be put together for about 250-300 quid.

No wonder I’m disappointed, and my Wot4 is certainly, on either a 40 or 46, no missile!

In fact, a beginner on a buddy system could be taught on mine, I’m sure, and I believe some have been trained on them, both IC and EP.

That said, dedicated trainers, as we know, are more forgiving of less than accurate control inputs!

So, I maintain that, as it comes, the Riot, at 90w/lb is underpowered for a model of its type and size and even without the Wot4 comparison, and I would take a guess that the reason lies in marketing strategy (hype) manufacturing cost, attractive pricing and profit margins.

Would I discourage somebody from buying one?

No, especially if money is tight and you’re not expecting too much for the money, as I was!

Would you be better off, if you could, and cost was within budget, building one up from parts and selecting your own power set up?

Yes!

Am I now going to upgrade mine after following this thread, doing a lot of research and a bit of experimenting?

No!

Have I learnt anything?

Lots!

😊

 

 

 

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 07/01/2020 01:05:30

[Peter Beeney]

Hello Keith,

Many thanks for your answer above.

I have to admit I’m still still a little puzzled by some of the information here, but then I’m easily confused anyway. I’ve thought for a long time that we have many and diverse views, as someone once said, ask 4 different modellers the same question and you’ll get 5 different answers; and quite likely it’s me that’s the foolish fellow going in two different directions to once… But I suspect it might well be much the same result in other activities as well, such as fishing or golf… one of my once upon a time students was a prominent member of a golf club right next door to the patch at that time and he said the committee ‘discussions’ could on odd occasions lead to near fisticuffs!

And what about the up and coming drone fraternity, too? I wonder if they are always in perfect harmonious agreement as well…

One point about the Riot is it’s longevity. It’s been around for a while now and it’s still a popular model, at least in our little club anyway. I feel that if it were not such a success story it would have fallen by the wayside long ago. It’s willing in any weather, you can sling a few lipos in a warm bag and have a little session on a windy winter’s day if you are so minded. I reckon it’s also pretty tough; as I said before, regarding mine I’m firmly convinced the aileron servos went far beyond the expected call of duty without ever failing; and in common with other of my models I often wondered at what point the wings were going to fold… Whilst the undercart is perhaps not of the best it also seems that even this generally survives the rougher runway at this time of year ok. For the price I think it’s value for money compared with some others.

So there we are… Riot threads have run in the past here on the forum, I’m sure they will continue to do so in the future. And if the adage ‘Any publicity is good publicity’ is true then no harm is done; and I can say I have no connection whatsoever with Century either…

All good luck with your model!

PB

[Bruce Collinson]

Keith,

George at 4 Max is a top guy for anything electric. Good reliable mid-market kit, rarely out of stock, prompt delivery, a very good source of advice on setups and an informative website. He has been my go-to since I returned 4 years ago. His peers, small UK retailers, are fully worthy of support in my view because we’ll miss them if they go.

Modelfixings, Laser, Phoenix, Component Shop, Jettstream, T9, Just Engines and of course my LMS, Modelshop Leeds. And Deluxe Materials for any sort of glue. And SLEC. Why do we go offshore?

BTC

[Jeffrey Cottrell 2]

Hi Guys

Santa paid a belated visit this morning. Brought with him the 2650 4s packs and the spinner from Robotbirds.
So, good news.
HK list the packs as 22mm deep, they are actually 21mm, and fit the un-modded battery bay with room to spare.

Even replaced the velcro strap with one a lot thicker, and still a good fit.
Haven't decided yet what to do with the power leads. Left the esc 'floating' for the time being, until I do the test flight and am happy with the set up.
Same with the spinner.

Would really have liked a 50mm one to look right, but the 40mm leaves a gap which allows cooling air direct on to the motor.
Happy with that.
All I need now is some waders, so I can use the field.

Jeff

[Keith Miles 2]

Peter,

Totally agree that much is a matter of opinion and personal taste and totally agree that, for many, value for money is probably a fair description of the model for you what you get. As you say, for whatever reason, the Riot certainly seems to have become a popular purchase. Can’t argue with that. I shall be keeping it and flying it but I won’t now be upgrading it because for one thing, I will be stuck with four 3S batteries costing 100 quid in total that I have no other use for in the foreseeable future! I also have a possibly repairable Wot4 and a number of other models including two unboxed kits and a stalled plan build!

Bruce,

Yes, they do tell me that “George” is a good guy to deal with and having had a closer look on his website, I sense that he really knows his stuff. I smiled when I saw his comment about lead-free solder and totally agree with him. Only tried it once and once was enough! And I totally agree about supporting the Model Shops.It is but one example of an area of retail where “see before you buy” will disappear altogether if we ain’t careful aside from the face to face element. In the end, as in many other areas of life, we have to take some responsibility for the demise of things we supposedly value. No disrespect to the likes of Hobby King but monopolies are not always a good thing!

Jeffrey,

I can only say, in response to your most recent post, that if I’d known then what I know now, I might have either gone 4S and Century’s recommended 10x6 or not bought a Riot!

Finally, I’ve started a thread (Max Thrust Riot versus Wot4)  regarding the Riot and Wot4 comparison if anyone is interested and will leave this thread for the Riot “upgraders”.

Again, thanks to Jeffrey, and everyone else, for not booting me off the thread and for expanding my knowledge!

 

 

 

 

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 07/01/2020 23:53:12

[Keith Miles 2]

Sorry, forgot to mention on Peter’s Riot longevity point, that the Wot4 design is around 40 years old and at one point, (perhaps still) was available in 8 or 9 different versions, plus the very similar Wot4 Trainer.

Now THAT is what I would call a success story and one unlikely to be repeated!

Maybe that’s why Century, if they were trying to compete with the Wot4, opted to compete on price?

I’m definitely going now!

😊

[Shaun Walsh]

Has anyone managed to get a Riot to do a proper flat spin, All mine will do is descend rapidly whilst rolling quickly! Gradually moving the COG back and if I try to get more control surface movement I may pull the hinges out!

[Keith Miles 2]

Posted by Shaun Walsh on 07/06/2020 12:27:53:

Has anyone managed to get a Riot to do a proper flat spin, All mine will do is descend rapidly whilst rolling quickly! Gradually moving the COG back and if I try to get more control surface movement I may pull the hinges out!

What a coincidence!

I was about to post the same question having now had a couple of dozen flights with mine and I’m having exactly the same issue! All of my Wot4s would spin and recover nicely every time, at “book” settings, not so the Riot.

I’ve got the rudder deflection as far as it will go (about 40deg), and plenty of elevator but even with in-spin aileron applied all it will do is “flop” into a spiral dive.

I’ve said it before, and say again, it’s far more a trainer than an aeroplane to “satisfy even the most ambitious pilot” although I note that the marketing hype appears to have now been toned down!

I have yet to try moving the COG back, so watch this space!

 

PS. Actually, to avoid upsetting anyone, I’ll post my findings on my thread “Max Thrust Riot Versus Wot4”. See you there?

 

 

 

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 07/06/2020 14:04:46

[Max thrust riot]

The Riot is a great model for the beginner but suffers from a couple of irritating faults. The undercarriage cantilever axles are only 2.5 mms dia mild steel screws and bend with only slightly hard landings causing the wheel to jam and a landing ground loop. Upgrade axles to stronger HT steel Allen screws. Similarly the elevator and rudder horn connectors are cheap plastic affairs which have let pilots down. Upgrade to steel connectors. The design features LED nav lights but in my opinion the money would be better spent on better quality fittings. Why spoil an excellent model with cheap fittings. Get the detail correct.

[Stuart Z]

Hi

Still stumbling in the dark a bit.  I’ve tried a 4S battery with a 50 amp ESC and got the next higher rated motor from 4 Max.  (1270). Now pulling well over 50 amps on 11x5.5 prop.  Any thoughts on how to get the power draw down - on a 3S I only get around a 30-35 amp draw.  BTW RPM seems to be around 8000 on the 3S setup.  Would have expected more 😟

 

S

[Shaun Walsh]

8 minutes ago, Stuart Z said:

Hi

Still stumbling in the dark a bit.  I’ve tried a 4S battery with a 50 amp ESC and got the next higher rated motor from 4 Max.  (1270). Now pulling well over 50 amps on 11x5.5 prop.  Any thoughts on how to get the power draw down - on a 3S I only get around a 30-35 amp draw.  BTW RPM seems to be around 8000 on the 3S setup.  Would have expected more 😟

If it's the 3541 1270 motor then its over-propped. The 4-Max website recommends an 8x4 for that motor with a 4s battery which explains why the current drawn is more than the motor can take without overheating and the revs are low.

For a 4s battery you need the 3541 810 or for a 3s battery the 3541 1070.

400 Watts will give you vertical performance with the Riot, I have one with the 3s 1070 setup.

[Stuart Z]

Thanks Shaun, 

 

Didn’t see an alert to your reply.  
 

Thanks for the information-it is definitely a big learning curve but I think I’m getting there with your help.  I’ll get the props you mentioned and see what gives the best performance as I can revert to the lower motor and interpolate the options as I go.

 

Many thanks

 

S

[Shaun Walsh]

4 hours ago, Stuart Z said:

Thanks Shaun, 

 

Didn’t see an alert to your reply.  
 

Thanks for the information-it is definitely a big learning curve but I think I’m getting there with your help.  I’ll get the props you mentioned and see what gives the best performance as I can revert to the lower motor and interpolate the options as I go.

 

Many thanks

 

S

propCalc is a useful online tool

[Stuart Z]

Thanks

Perhaps it was simpler, perhaps it was a case of what you were familiar with, but it seems there are more variables, In reality the issues are the same, but unlike IC it seems you are forever looking things up. However, I had years of knowing what IC aligned with what.  Now’s it’s all new with electric. 

 

Hey ho my new pattern model I’m going to be IC. It was going to be way too expensive given I have loads of IC gear.

Thanks again

kind regards 

Stuart 

 

 

 

 

 

[GrumpyGnome]

I got one to replace my foamy Wots Wot that needs a new fuselage - unobtainable. 

 

Was a bargain a £165 delivered.

 

Arrived a 6pm, flew it at 7 am next day.

 

Changes made in the week I've had it;

 

• Softer, fatter wheels - originals made of concrete
• Harder axles that don't bend if you taxi on grass
• Removed the nose weight
• Replaced the short skinny velcro for battery retention
• Dialled rates up to maximum
• Replaced the clevises - seemingly made of delicate glass.

Flies nicely on my collection if 3S 2200s. Not unlimited vertical but a good sports hack - certainly easily loops from very slow level flight.

 

Not able to do a flat spin ....... inverted or not.

[Barryorbik]

What were the upgraded clevises you used, as just preping my Riot for its maiden.

[GrumpyGnome]

@Barryorbik Just some I had laying around in my 'spares' box..........

[Barryorbik]

Did you go for a metal or an alternate plastic type and if metal did you need to use threaded pusk rods?

[GrumpyGnome]

Alternate plastic - none of my metal ones were suitable.

 

ANY alternative ones would be better than those supplied....

[Barryorbik]

Thanks for all your help and I have some JP clevises that look to be a slightly more substantial and a better plastic.  Just need to source some nice soft 75mm wheels now, as ours is a grass strip with a few rabbit holes and a hump midway down the strip - just to trap the unwary and make landings just a tad more interesting !!

[Kim Taylor]

This looks familiar!!

 

Global warehouse only, and not cheap either.

I'll stick with the Riot, thanks very much!!

Kim

 

 

[Barryorbik]

I looked at it earlier and it appear they have copied the undercarriage too !