Max Thrust Riot - Upgrades

[jeffrey cottrell]

Hi Guys

Seem to be an awful lot of Riots about, but the last entry on the official Riot thread on here was back in 2017, so thought I'd start a new one with some thoughts and questions on the V2 version.
First, bit of a back story.
Recently moved to a new area, so I don't have anywhere to build yet. Looking round for an artf I decided on a Max Thrust Ruckus. Heard good reports about the model, but tbh I was never comfortable with mine.
Only got 4 flights with it before I cartwheeled it into long grass and broke the fuz.
Not keen on spending more on a new fuz for a model I didn't really like, but the electrics were still working fine so I decided on a Riot airframe I could transfer them into.
So, initial thoughts.
Fuz does look more substantial, thicker foam etc, so that's good news but does leave less room inside for the gear.
I did read a comment that the battery bay was too small, and required foam to be cut away even to install a 2200 3s.
Seems like Century were listening because the bay is now far longer. Have to say it's a little shallow to hold a 2200 if it's even a bit puffed, but it will take a 3000 flat pack without any issues. Also incorporates a velcro strap to hold the LiPo in place rather than rely on the plastic hatch clips. All good news in my book.
Still has the steel weights in the nose, but they do look easier to remove than the ones in the Ruckus.
That's the good, now the bad.
The wing servos were a tight fit in the ply plates. Got them in eventually, but I hope I didn't damage the output wires when I forced them in. Working fine on the bench so fsr, so I may have dodged a bullet there.
The wires for the tip lights now terminate in some tiny XT plugs, rather than the servo plugs on the Ruckus.
Apparently the aircraft used to be supplied with a small circuit board which these plugs and the aileron servos plugged into.
Talking to Century, they found so many owners were plugging in to this board incorrectly that they discontinued it.
Going to change these plugs for servo ones which plug directly into the receiver.
Probably more reliable that way, but a pita if I need to take the wing off for any reason.
No real biggy.
More of an issue is the motor mount.
The Riot and the Ruckus share the same motor, so should be a straight swop. Trouble is the holes marked in the ply mounting plate do not match those in the motor mount.
Simple enough to mark and drill new ones, but I have to find a way to mark them such that the motor shaft comes out central to the cowl.Wouldn't look to good any other way. Need to get the brainbox to work on that one. Ho hum.
The instructions say there is a moulded recess in the underwing compartment to hold the receiver.
Can't see this one anywhere.
Anyone flying a Riot, where are you mounting your rx?
Finally, instructions recommend movement on ailerons and elevator of 10mm each way.
On the Ruckus it said 15mm, but even this was not enough for a good performance.
Anyone flying a Riot, is this movement sufficient or should I raise it?

Your thoughts?

Jeff

[Kim Taylor]

Hi Jeff,

The receiver recess is a small rectangular section up against the bulkhead at the wing leading edge. I've never found it to be big enough, although it may be possible to fit a small 4 channel rx in there.

The motor thing, I'm confused by, as the motor is the same for both Riot & Ruckus according to the spares section of Century's website. I've just put a new fuselage on mine (don't ask) and the motor fitted ok, although the screws do go in at a bit of an angle. I had a problem with the holes for one servo not lining up, so the drillings aren't infallible.

My V2 Riot had the circuit board but the replacement fuselage didn't even have the bit of wood it mounts on. The little plugs are a carry over from the original Riot.

I've got my ailerons set with a low rate at 10mm up / 7mm downand high nearer 15mm up / 10mm down. I find that to be comfortable enough but not twitchy. The standard settings are 'safe' especially with the nose weight still in place.

I use 3s 3200 LiPo's and have never had an issue fitting them, either in the V2 or the original one I had for 2 or more years before that. I think you'll have to take out the nose weight if you're using a 3000 LiPo just to get the c of g somewhere close.

hth

Kim

[GlidingGuy]

Hi Jeff,

I've been flying my riot (or my Not 4) for about 3 years now and it's safe to say it quite well worn in by this point. With regards to the control throws, the more the better. The Riot is a lovely flying airplane and can be as aerobatic or as docile as you like. On mine, I've pretty much maxed-out the throws on all surfaces. I'd set up dual rates so if you intend to use it as a trainer you can have the recommended 10mm each way and then have more throws for 'sportier' flying.

Mine is not the V2, so maybe the following issue have been addressed - I just thought I'd let you know.

- The landing gear is mounted to a plastic plate where the screws thread in. Over time this plate will weaken and split if you have a few hard landings. It might be worth reinforcing this plate somehow. Mine has split to the point where it almost feels like I have suspension on my gear because it flexes so much!

- The ESC on mine did not last very long. I was using a 2200mah 3s as recommended and I wasn't flying like a moron or anything but after about a year it died on me. I've now upgraded to a 60 amp ESC and I haven't had any issues with that.

The Riot is a very durable model and has survived me flying it for 3 years. It's even survived a mid air collision and totalled the other model!

I hope you enjoy it as much as I have.

Luccaaa

[brokenenglish]

I'm flying a Riot and I have to say that I'm totally satisfied. It's probably the best quality "electric foamie" I've ever had.

A 2200 3S battery fits perfectly. No problem. My Orange 615X Rx fits in the receiver bay no problem (OK, it's a park flier Rx, but this obliges me to keep the plane fairly close, which has cured one of my "faults".

Concerning your control throws. This is a very personal thing and depends on your flying.
I think Century (wisely) recommend a setup suitable for the less experienced, and consider that experts will be capable of sorting out their own control throws, to suit their own tastes.
For me, this is the way it should be.

It follows from this that, on an easy flying sport model, there's not much point in asking for other people's views. It's dead easy to play with the rates and expo etc. between flights, and get it right for your style of flying.

The only very minor criticism that I have, on both the Riot and the Ruckus, is that the wheel axle bolts are far too soft. They bend even on gentle, near perfect, landings, and they break when they've been "bent back" a few times. I replaced these, and I must have more than 100 flights on my Riot, and it's still unmarked. Super!

[Colin Carpenter]

Mines got 204 recorded flights ! Many others before I started a log ! Motors been replaced but all other electronics are original. Spekkie 4ch Rx fits ok. Lights pulled out - couldn't see them most of the time ! Axles changed for cap head bolts. Screws in uc mount tapped out for 3mm bolts ! Got a few scrapes and weak tail prongs reglued. Excellent value for money in my opinion and you can teach yourself to fly with it !! I did !! Colin

[jeffrey cottrell]

Hi Guys

Thanks for all the quick replies, and the pretty positive reviews. Certainly seems to be a better bet than the Ruckius, but then again, anything would be.
Anyway, here's the state of play, and another issue I could use some advice on.
So, changing the u/c axles for ht ones is a no brainer.
Bent both on the Ruckus and replaced with ht, so just pinched the bolts for the Riot.
After all, the Ruckus won't need them any more, will it?
Not sure how the motor mount bolts got mis-positioned. Only one bolt hole was drilled, the others were just marked.
After a bit of lateral thinking and harsh language managed to get new holes marked up and drilled, and more by luck than judgement, the motor shaft came out dead centre of the cowl.
I know you can't see any difference when it's 200' up in the air, but I'm anal like that.
I have a small moulded box with a couple of holes in the ply at the bottom. Is that what's supposed to be the receiver box?
If so, no way will I get my receiver in there. I'm thinking to epoxy a small piece of ply to the fuz side then attach the rx with double sided tape.
Now to the issue.
Both the elevator and rudder pushrods are stiff to move. Checked on my wrecked Ruckus and although the elevator rod is a little stiff, the rudder is very free moving, and neither is as bad as the Riot ones.
So, what to do.
Been moving them back and forth, to see if they free up a little, but no sign so far. The Elevator one seems a little freer if you hold it away from the fuz, which suggests it might have a bend in it.
Could try running a little oil down the inside, but not sure I'll ever be happy with it as is.
My thinking at the moment is to take both pushrods out. This will mean cutting off the 'z' bends, but I'm sure I have some of those screw on connectors around somewhere, and they would make a good alternative.
Perhaps someone else has an idea that is less 'surgical'

Over to you guys

Jeff

[Engine Doctor]

Past experience has shown that if a pushrod is bent then the only cure is to remove and straighten or replace the rod . If the outer was bent during fitting causing the resistance then that will have to be straightened or replaced. If oil does free it up then as the oil oxidises the friction returns so removing the rod is probably you best option in the long run. If you do remove the rod and clean ,straighten or whatever needed then wipe lightly with some silicone grease on reassembly . If the rod and tube are damaged you could replace the lot with a snake ? They deal with bends much better than rods but check what is causing the binding first as all the Riots I gave dealt with had very smooth control rods. Good luck.

[jeffrey cottrell]

Hi Engine Doctor

Good thoughts all, but it's never that easy, is it?
Model in question is a moulded foamie. I would assume the pushrods were fitted at the moulding stage.
Outers are firmly bonded to the fuz, and the inners have a 'z' bend at the servo end so can't be slid out.
Only idea is to dremel the 'z' bends off, slide the rod out then use some other form of connector at the servo end. I have a packet of those barrel connectors with the grub screws. Ideal for this, says I.
So, cut the bend off the elevator rod.That looked straight enough, so the issue must be in the outers.
Polished with a bit of fine emery and a spray of silicon lubricant. Also spoke to Century who came up with a couple of other ideas.
Did all that, seemed a little better but not ideal.
Now come to fitting the new connectors.
What I hadn't noticed was that the pushrods exit the fuz below the level of the servo arms. No issue with the z bends, but can't use those barrels because the locking grubscrew would be on the bottom, no access.
Finally, figured a way round that one, connected it all up.
Although I'm still not happy with it, looked to centre ok, so prepared to fly that way, see if it will loosen up with use. Anyway, decided to set the rudder up as is, z bends an' all, just to see how well it centred.
If it was ok, might hold my nose and fly it as is.
Never got that far.
With it all rigged up, couldn't get the clevis screwed on anywhere near enough. The full length of the thread, and on to the smooth bit still wouldn't line up.
So, back on the phone to Century.
Oh yes, says he, about every hundred kits does come with overlong pushrods.
Why me, why me?
So, back out with the dremel, cut that z bend off as well. At least I know how to fit the upside down connectors now.
Here we are now, almost ready for test flight. Touch and go whether it flies at the field or into the trash can.
Long been a tradition with me that if any kit is wrongly put together, missing bits or just plain bad, it will find its way on to my bench sometime, but this is an artf for pete's sake. Really shouldn't need all this fettling just to get it to an almost flyable state.Just need to sort out the rats nest of wiring under the wing, then 'see if the damn thing will fly'.
Pop quiz.
That line came from a helicopter movie that was so bad it was almost good. Starred Nicholas Cage, Sean Young and Tommy Lee Jones./
Bonus points for anyone who can give me the title.
Meanwhile, for all you successful Rioters, what c/g are you flying at? I pulled the steel weight out of mine, but I might have been premature.
With both the 3000 pack and the 2200 one the c/g comes out at the rearward limit of 90mm.
Would this be ok, or should I put the weight back in?

Jeff

[Denis Watkins]

Jeff

FireBirds movie

[jeffrey cottrell]

Hi Denis

Think you deserve the points, even though it was known a 'Wings of the Apache' over here.

Well done

Jeff

[jeffrey cottrell]

Hi Guys

Well, looks like the Riot is as ready as it will ever be for its maiden. Hope it flies better than it goes together.
Pushrods are still stiffer than I'd like, but the surfaces centre ok, so I'm going with it in case they free up in use.
Also wing bolts don't really do up tight before starting to crush the foam. What do you all do?
Meanwhile couple of other thoughts.
No-one came back with their opinions on c/g position. I have now got one of those c/g balancers from HK, and can confirm that the balance is 95mm back from the LE.
Currently re-fitting the steel weight in the nose. Mistake to take it out in the first place.
Also, I believe the issue with the previous Ruckus was a combination of c/g position and very light wing loading. I worked it out to be less than 15 oz/sq ft.
Just done the same calculation for the Riot, and its even less, about 13 oz/sq ft.
I have the all up weight as 3lb 7oz. Does than sound about right?
Anyway, re-fitted the nose weight and the model now balances slightly nose down, but at 90mm. That's the rearward limit according to the manual.
Done fiddling with this. It either flies that way or it doesn't.

We'll see

Jeff

P.S.
Anyone using those HK c/g balancers? Under the balance pads there are two grub screws. Can't fathom out their purpose, apart from maybe stopping the pads from lifting off upwards. That's not likely to happen.Also why have they made the measuring arms rotate in the horizontal plane, rather than just the vertical.
Must be a reason, Am I missing something?

J

[Capt Kremen]

Sorry to hear of ALL your 'Riot' woes Jeff.

As I often say, most ARTFs made down to a price, not up to a quality.

My 'Riot' was an 'airframe only' purchase to which I replaced: Motor (now 4-Max), ESC (4-Max), Prop (balanced APC), Spinner (Ali back-plate+balanced), HiTec mini servos all round with ball-link clevis = absolutely no free-play linkages, Undercarriage 'Chinese metal' bolts replaced with DuBro axles, u/c fixing also improved to prevent pulling out, larger wheels too. AND those horrible metal snakes that bind in the outers drawing substantial current=A, not to mention making precision control nigh impossible! Replace!!!

LiPo area 'hollowed out' to easily accommodate a 3S 3300mAh pack plus secure with velcro strap. The original plastic 'rats cage' urgh!!!

C of G start as recommended in instruction sheet then adjust to your taste/preference. Many end up removing that lump of weight, you may or may not find that trim comfortable for your style of flying and requirements.

Yes, I've tried that HK C of G gadget 'orrible, now use either the Multiplex or Great Planes C of G devices = no problems.

Flying - Fly the 'Riot' in all winds and weathers, no problem, now, (with all the mods), a great hack model, loads of them in our club.

[Kim Taylor]

The c of g on mine is behind the 90mm 'rearmost' recommendation (nose weight out, bit of ply in instead).

Not 100% sure, but I seem to remember 93mm. Flies fine, no issues whatsoever and needs a slight push to fly straight & level when inverted. The 'book settings, as previously mentioned are very conservative.

My V2 also had the over long pushrods and the parts to convert to the screw type connectors were included in the kit.

Just do the wing bolts up until they're tight(ish) but not crushing the wing. Easier to do than to describe but you can feel when it's enough.

I also use the HK c of g balance thingy. I think that they use a spherical end on the upright and socket to allow for dihedral. Either way I suggest that you check and double check when using the balancer as I've found that it can give false results. Now I always balance, then take the plane off and put it on again to re check and the results can differ. I think it's because of the flexible uprights on the vernier bits - you have to make sure that the wing sits just right and doesn't push against the upright.

Kim

[jeffrey cottrell]

Hi Guys, thanks for the quick replies.

Capt. Kremen

You bought an airframe only, then fitted it out with top of the range gear. In your opinion, is the basic airframe good enough to warrant that expense?
I know, having wasted so much on the Ruckus, that I decided to go with the supplied gear as much as possible.
Disappointed too in the battery holder. I have loads of Turnigy 2200 packs, but they are all puffed slightly. Turnigy's do that but still work ok.
However, any puffing at all and the battery bay is too shallow for them to fit. I had hoped to use some 3000 packs instead, but they only just fit in the bay, leaving no room for the wires.
Assuming it flies ok, a re-think might be in order.
I know the c/g is adjusted to taste, but I wanted to start at a conservative position for the first flights, just to get a feel for the model.
Pulled the nose weight out at first, but that gave me a c/g of 95mm. Re-fitted it but that only took it back to 90mm, which is the rearward limit according to the manual.
Eventually I'm sure I will take that weight back out again but wanted it docile for the first few flights.
One thing did intrigue me
You mentioned replacing the metal snakes. Did you replace the outers as well?
If so, how did you get them out?
Couldn't see how to do that without major surgery.
Jury still out on HK c/g machine, only just got it. Does the job, I suppose.

Kim

Good to know it will fly with a rearward c/g. I think I'll end up there as well, but I wanted it conservative for the first flights.
So, you got the overlong pushrods as well. Century reckon about 1 in 100 come with the long rods, so that makes 198 satisfied customers and us two. Ho hum.
At least you got the conversion bits in the box, I had to find my own.
Leads me to wonder.
Obviously Century can't measure each pushrod in each kit, so should they have added the extra bits to all their kits. I missed out on that.
Did the wing bolts up until they were just starting to crush the foam, but didn't seem very tight to me, so I added a bit of Loctite as an insurance policy.
We'll see how that goes.
You may well be right about the rotating bits on the balancer being to acommodate dihedral, but I can see a situation where you catch those arms while putting the model on, one of them rotates and the upright bit goes through the wing.
If it can possibly happen, it'll happen to me.

Jeff

[Kim Taylor]

Jeff,

I've never quite 'got' the battery box thing. I use 3200 3S LiPo in mine (my first plane coming back to the hobby being an Eflite Apprentice having this size from the factory). Obviously by a complete fluke, these are a perfect fit.

I get the Eflite compatible batteries from HK - cost about £16 each from memory. They come with an EC3 plug fitted, but this can be changed if you can solder. I've standardised on EC3 for all my 3S planes, just to make life easy so I soldered the mating EC3 on in place of the Deans plug on the ESC. The battery is a snug fit in the holder but the plug / socket and wiring tuck up between the battery box and the plywood strengthener.

Wrt the 'snakes', I think you'll find that if you give them a good pull, they'll come out. Not sure how you'd get a new one in though!!

And yes, it's a pita when you try to put the plane on to the balancer and you 'ping' the vernier, which promptly swings around.

Kim

[jeffrey cottrell]

Hi Kim

Interesting. Had a look at those LiPo's you are using and, if HK dimensions are accurate, yours are even longer than mine, 129mm against 123mm.
Anyway, no matter. While I was putting the model together I though of a number of areas I would like to change more to my liking.
Eventually decided there was no point changing anything until I was sure the model would fly, and I would like it.
So, jury still out till the maiden.

Cheers

Jeff

[SCRCS]

Just bought the Riot V2 and finding this thread very informative.

Just two observations for now on mine:-

1. No circuit board fitted. Just Y aerial lead to connect to servos and light direct to receiver.

2. The ESC is just stuffed in the front and left to dangle in the bay. Hope this will be OK. At least on my Apprentice the ESC was glued in place

[Kim Taylor]

Hi Richard

If they HAVE done away with the circuit board and its' associated teeny tiny plugs for the wingtip led's then it's no loss as they are a right royal pita to get hooked up - at least they are with my banana fingers!!

Not 100% clear on how you're connecting the lights up now - you'll maybe need a Y lead to split the aileron channel (if you're not using two channels on the rx) then some other way of connecting the wingtip lights up. Or did I misunderstand??

Kim

eta

For what it's worth, I cable tied my esc to the structure underneath the battery holder, just to stop it 'rattling around' loose

Edited By Kim Taylor on 28/11/2019 14:49:40

[SCRCS]

Yep. They have supplied a Y lead for the lights to connect to a spare receiver channel to pick up the power only, not the signal lead.

How about the ESC installation. Is it just left to lie in the front space

[Kim Taylor]

Posted by Richard Mellor on 28/11/2019 15:34:23:

How about the ESC installation. Is it just left to lie in the front space

As I said above, I tied mine to the wooden structure under the battery.

I'm sure it won't come to any harm if left loose, it's just the engineer in me that doesn't like it!

Kim

eta

Just thought - when I got my first Riot (actually a 'Devil' badged one as no Riots were available at the time) I put the 'Safe' rx from my old Apprentice in it and it flew beautifully, much better than the Apprentice ever did. I reckon that combination would be a perfect combination if someone was 'going it alone', as I was originally.

Just fyi.

Edited By Kim Taylor on 28/11/2019 17:43:40

[SCRCS]

The reason I bought the Riot is to move on from the Apprentice to take my A test. You cannot take the A test with the SAFE function or gyro assist as in the Apprentice so need a ‘clean’ receiver to take the test.

[Keith Miles 2]

Been flying glo-powered Wot4s for some years. Engine failure (a very rare event for me) just after take-off recently resulted in a close encounter of the arboreal kind.

Being used to fifteen or twenty minute flights with fuel still in the tank, I have never felt any inclination to go electric! On this occasion, however, with other things to do, I wanted a quick build “hack” to replace the Wot4 pending repair or replacement. The Riot seemed to be just about the only option.

So, initially, out of the box, I was impressed by the ingenuity of the design but, as is often the case the build has turned out to be not quite as quick as expected (although, admittedly, much quicker than a Wot4 ARTF) or as easy as described in the instructions and, in this case, mostly due to some annoying design flaws.

Room for the battery, it seems, has brought mixed reports. I did not fancy 2200mah and the only larger lipo I could find that looked like dropping in without bother was a 2900 mah Overlander. Model shop was out of stock so, as many have done, it seems, I ended up modifying the battery bay in order, in my case, to fit a similarly sized Radien 3000. This being a very slightly deeper battery which did not allow the hatch cover to be closed without putting a strain on it (not good) meant resorting to cutting out the battery holder entirely. I then fitted a 1/4 inch wide piece of ply, lengthwise, to the ply section below, to allow for two Velcro straps, air gap and plenty of clearance for the hatch cover. I’m sure a 2200 would have fitted fine, so no real gripe on this one, however.....

The wire pushrod-in-tube set up for rudder and elevator is dreadful.

Such an installation only works efficiently when the run between servo and control horn is virtually straight in order to minimise friction, prevent binding and to avoid putting undesirable excess load, physically and electrically, on the servo. These requirements are most certainly not met with the Riot! Things might have been considerably improved, though not perfectly, if the pushrods had been assembled crosswise during manufacture.

So, I’m scratching my head to come up with a fix, because I’m really not happy with it the way it is. One thing’s for sure. If I can’t sort it, I will be doing a load check on the servos before committing to the air!

In addition to the tight pushrods, the elevator horn has not even been angled inwards to align with the pushrod and clevis so, unless somehow corrected, this will impart a twisting force to the horn, and additional friction or, potentially, something worse! Again, very poor.

Oh, and as for the z-bends apparently previously used on the Riot, it seems that this point has been taken on board because the servo horns now have those swivel link pushrod connectors used for throttle linkages, so no z-bends required. That said, despite suggestions to the contrary, I reckon that any work on the servo is still going to be fiddly due to their somewhat submerged location.

Assembly and head scratching continues.......😊

 

 

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 30/11/2019 02:46:57

[Shaun Walsh]

I have a MK1 Riot and the battery bay is probably the worst feature of the model. In order to fit a decent sized battery I had to cut away the base of the bay and attach a velcro strap to the ply former underneath. The other problem is with the hatch, after some use the side catches crack and break. To strengthen them I epoxied a length of thin piano wire along the sides of the hatch on the inside to act as a torque rod, this seems to work well.

The riot responds well to a power system upgrade too, I swapped out the original motor with one from 4-Max which puts out about 400 watts which enables a vertical climb out on take off although enthusiastic use of the power does reduce flight time of course. To be on the safe side I also upgraded the ESC to 50 Amps.

[colin wray 2]

Been flying my Riot all year Iuse 2200 lipo as suggested Had no trouble with rudder/elevator linkages or servos up to now everything has worked well The only problem has been the u/c mounting which has cracked possibly due to my landings All in all Ihave been impressed with the model

[SCRCS]

Colin, what sort of flight time do you get on the 2200?