Max Thrust Riot - Upgrades

[Keith Miles 2]

Colin (et al)

Okay, I'll take the bait and in good humour!

To avoid misconceptions, I bought the Riot simply and solely because, based on reviews and marketing blurb, it seemed to offer a cheap, quick-build, similar design, similar sized directly comparable alternative to my temporarily hangared IC powered Wot4 albeit without the superior flight times of IC.

But for that, and without any disrespect to anyone, I would probably have had no interest in an electric model, be it a Riot or Acrowot because I still much prefer, for numerous reasons (which continue to be extensively debated!) to fly and operate IC models.

To be honest, I bought the Riot at a time when my enthusiasm for fixing or building was at a low level otherwise I might have had the Wot4 repaired or replaced by now and saved myself the current headache and the 250 quid already spent!

To be clear, I totally value all of the contributions being made and it is genuinely interesting and educational, indeed, it greatly assists with my decision making processes!

[Keith Miles 2]

Capt. Kremen,

A white strap would be even better!

Hmm...hadn't considered cutting out most of the ply subframe. Seems a bit drastic but if it works for you...!

It certainly increases the battery options, and then some!

[Colin Carpenter]

Excellent Keith ! Tongue in cheek hence silly emojis !! 🤓🤓I fly from a small patch with obstructions on all sides and a Riot is what we recommend to a newcomer. There a quite a few and I can only think of one on 4s ! I fly Sebarts these days but the Riot is what got me into aerobatics in a F3A smooth style ! It’s still in my storage shed biding it’s time ! An interesting thread ! Colin

[Capt Kremen]

Keith,

Fair enough, and I don't blame you given the 'qualities' (sic) you have experienced of the 'Riot'!

I have a family of Chris Foss designs (all-electric powered) - 'WOT4', 'WOT4 PRO', 'Acrowot', 'UNO-Wot', and 'WOT Trainer'. Surprised as I am to admit, but I get as much 'fun' out of my 'Riot' as the 'Wotties' ('WOT Trainer' excepted which is fabulous all-rounder IMHO). The 'WOT' range of ARTFs (foam or wood/ply), I found had as many deficiencies and shortcomings, poor materials, fittings etc. and thought typical par for the course for ANY ARTFs, i/c or electric.

[IanR]

Keith

Dynamic 4S 3200mAh lipo - 25x42x128mm. I have just measured it.

Fitting it to my Riot Mk1, the battery bay lid closes properly without any pressure from the battery and without any deflection at all - just. A very slightly puffed Overlander Supersport 3S 30C 2200mAh lipo is virtually the same thickness. My 4S Dynamic is unused and completely flat with no puffiness at all. If it were to puff up, even slightly, I would imagine that the battery tray lid would be under tension.

I have only ever flown my Riot with the 3S Overlander and only with a 4" wing band around the fuselage nose against the battery lid. The lid closing mechanism is so flimsy that I would not consider flying without the elastic band.

Whilst writing I would add that at the beginning of every season I run a few drops of WD40 into the pushrod tubes. Otherwise the pushrods are so stiff that the rudder and elevator will not zero when releasing the sticks. I also changed the crappy axles for stainless steel screws and poured adhesive (can't remember which one) into the plastic rudder socket to prevent the rudder from coming adrift.

I would agree that the Riot's performance is a little lacklustre but rather than attempt to make performance enhancements I would rather buy an additional (different) model.

IanR

[Capt Kremen]

Adding to Ian Rs comment about stiff control run wire pushrod.

I 'polished' mine with Duraglit metal polish.

During radio servo installations on all my models, I use an amp meter inline with the servo and measure the operational, (albeit static) current drawn. Amazing the results before and after treating or even replacing supplied ARTF control runs! Also replace those rather 'delicate' cheap plastic kit clevis with quality ball clevis. No back lash or lost movement in the linkages then. Why have a good radio Tx and servos, (not the kit ones obviously!), and loose precision control input movements(?)

[Keith Miles 2]

Colin,

Totally agree with your point about the Riot for confined spaces and, funnily enough, the same thought went through my mind when I first flew mine! A 40 powered Wot4 eats up a lot more sky within a much shorter time frame. Our field, by contrast is on a hill in open countryside with no such concerns. Maybe that's part of my "problem"?

Capt Kremen,

Totally agree that no ARTFs are without faults, especially the quality of some hardware. For example, the throttle wire with z-bend that comes with the Wot4 is useless because you can't get it around the tank without putting a serious curve in the run to get it from the servo and then past the fuel tank and, even then, it exits the firewall at an undesirable angle. I always replace it with bicycle gear cable and an epoxied on plastic clevis!

IanR,

Just had a look on Century's website. more confusion, it seems!

With reference to your post wherein you quote a recommendation from "Mark" of a 10x6 prop for 4S there is no 10x6 listed in the Riot spares list!

For 4S it shows, in fact, 11x5.5, the very prop that they now include with the model for 3S, instead of the previous 12x6!

The 12x6, however, is still showing as the spare standard prop for 3S!

As for batteries and my previous observations about an apparently limited choice for "upgrading" without model modification (i.e. only an Overlander would seem to drop straight in), I note that Century do supply the 4S 2500 quoted (Art Tech) plus a range of Overlander and Power Tech. Further research currently also suggests that the Power Tech might also be a Century exclusive, only available direct from them, unlike Overlander. There seems to be little difference in price on the Century site and, looking at the pictures, it would not surprise me if they all come from the same factory. At least with Overlander, one can shop around for the best price and this might work out cheaper than Power Tech.

So, everybody.....

Taking into account all observations, advice, performance figures etc. I'm thinking that a compromise might be to standardise with an APC 11x5.5 and to add a couple of 4S Power Tech or Overlander to my four already purchased Radient 3S batteries. I can then switch from "docile long play mode" to "sparkling standard play mode" mode by simply switching batteries.

So does anybody (here we go!) have a user opinion to offer on the aforementioned batteries? I mentioned Overlander to a club member today and he turned his nose up. He didn't say why though. Maybe it was just the cost?

My only reservation relates to the apparently lower physical volume of these batteries for a given capacity compared to others on the market.

Back to you guys!

[Thomas Barwick]

personally i dont use overlanders as found them to "puff" far quicker than any other battery and also found them to deliver less power than most. I either use Turnigy packs or Radients . Radients arn't the best packs in the world but are far good enough for what you are using them for.

[Denis Watkins]

Posted by Keith Miles 2 on 04/01/2020 21:35:24:

My only reservation relates to the apparently lower physical volume of these batteries for a given capacity compared to others on the market.

Lithium pack development never stops

With new manufacturing techniques the electrodes are becoming thinner and thinner

Therefore packs are getting thinner

And even now the boffs are spraying electrodes microns thin and even

Printing electrodes in geometric shapes that put more punch in less space

[Bruce Collinson]

Gone off Overlander, agree with Thomas, too many puffed up. Default is George’s from 4Max, not had a single puffy one yet despite similar stated capacities and usage as equivalent Overloader. I have a theory, 4Max are slightly larger like for like and I wonder if they are deliberately labelled a little conservatively.

BTC

[Keith Miles 2]

Ian R,

Battery dimensions/fit comments noted. Thanks.

Presumably you haven't modified the tray whereas I already have by cutting out the base straps. A couple of velcro straps go around a narrow added ply strip screwed to the ply subframe inside the fuselage to secure and take the weight of the battery so no pressure at all on the hatch cover and no need for additional security.

I also wanted to keep the battery off the subframe to allow as much air circulation as possible, especially around the otherwise enclosed ESC. Despite my modification, therefore, it still somewhat restricts the size of battery that I can fit.

I see somebody (!) has cut away most of the ply subframe, which might be perfectly fine, but I personally prefer to avoid making such alterations to a model's basic structure on the basis that if it was okay to do so, the designer would probably have done that already in order to save weight without reducing strength.

As for buying another model, I take your point, but I now have a plan, I think, and a budget limit as explained in a previous post. Indeed, another model to replace the Riot is not what I need, having a Wot4 to repair, three others needing minor work, one flyable Wots Wot plus an Extra and a Mustang still in their packaging! All are IC models!

[Keith Miles 2]

Posted by Thomas Barwick on 04/01/2020 21:47:36:

personally i dont use overlanders as found them to "puff" far quicker than any other battery and also found them to deliver less power than most. I either use Turnigy packs or Radients . Radients arn't the best packs in the world but are far good enough for what you are using them for.

Sorry, do I know you?

To bring you up to speed, I'm unable to find anything that meets my parameters that will readily fit except Overlander or now, maybe Power Tech. See previous posts!

Everybody please note that Tom wasn't the one who turned his nose up at the mention of Overlander but I thank him for his view. One down!

Sorry. Make that two!

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 04/01/2020 22:31:12

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 04/01/2020 22:33:43

[Keith Miles 2]

Posted by Bruce Collinson on 04/01/2020 22:16:32:

Gone off Overlander, agree with Thomas, too many puffed up. Default is George’s from 4Max, not had a single puffy one yet despite similar stated capacities and usage as equivalent Overloader. I have a theory, 4Max are slightly larger like for like and I wonder if they are deliberately labelled a little conservatively.

BTC

George’s? What’s that?

All I see on 4Max is Purple Power.

Did I miss something?

[Peter Beeney]

Reading Nigel R’s little comment about having to glue the rudder in it’s plastic holder reminded me that on the first turn of the first flight of the first Riot that I assembled the fin/rudder popped out of that same holder and was instantly flapping around in the breeze, just held on by the pushrod and quick link! Fortunately no harm done though, and I simply super glued it back in. I found the other models to be the same so I zipped over to the LMS where I’d bought them to warn future customers; he also then went back to Century but it was as an advisory rather than a complaint. Also a post on the forum here at the time, too. This was circa. summer 2013, hopefully it’s all been sorted by now!

I never felt that the Riot was particularly lacklustre in any way. On three cells a lively and friendly puppy. Just a nice universal trainer and hack etc. model. The flying weight was just about 3lb as I remember; as in, cop this one, one of the first Riots. The school I mentioned was a rather Upstream and Country Life sort of establishment, all Drophead Bentleys and Rolex watches; and before you could say ‘You have control’ the lads had got a FPV camera bolted on the top and a small GoPro video camera slung between the undercarriage legs so they could watch themselves filming themselves whizzing up and down the strip! I’ve still got some of that on an SD card they gave me. To all intents and purposes the extra weight and drag seemed to make very little difference to the flying characteristics.

I always used the standard battery size, and with the steel weight removed it was nice and light with a wing loading around 12oz/sqft. which I think was one of the reasons for it’s at least reasonable capabilities. I tried the 4 cell setup just to see what it could be made to do, I’ve always gravitated to flying fast close the ground at times, which can often be rather spectacular… and expensive!!
I never saw any surface flutter at all but definitely the elevator servo at least did very much appear to be struggling a bit at speed… and perhaps that’s not an ideal situation for one’s heart rate, or wallet rate, either… I mean, an adrenalin rush is one thing…. an adrenalin flood is something else entirely…

Only had one problem with the components, we had a motor that suddenly started stopping, usually with the model right in the wrong place; sorry.. I thought it was a connection perhaps but t’was the ESC. A quick email to Century and a replacement crossed the returning one in the post. Excellent stuff.

I have to say that if I had a rather unenthusiastic Riot I’d not be able to resist kicking it around a bit until I discovered what it’s particular ailment was. For one thing, I would have undoubtably learnt something anyway and it’s always useful knowledge to be able to pass on to someone else in the same circumstances.

All Power to your Prop!

PB

PS Bruce - I have read that the spec. of many proper man sized industrial cells are deliberately under rated to guarantee that they would past the commissioning test. Or at least that was the case many years ago in a working life… not sure if that’s still the case nowadays.

[Keith Miles 2]

Okay, “swan song” time! (No cheering, please!).

Firstly, I must thank Jeffrey for the thread (and not complaining about me, seemingly, hogging the limelight!) and for everybody’s contributions. It has extended my knowledge of the “dark side” considerably and prompted me to do much more in-depth research into the subject. That said, with the exception of small “indoor” models” I remain happy for the time being to stick with liquid power until forced to do otherwise!

So, back to the Riot “upgrade” issue!

I have concluded that, based on the generally accepted “100 watts per pound” as average for an average model, that the Riot does seem to be, from the outset, marginally powered and therefore falls short of its marketing hype, something that both ground and air testing, in my view, has confirmed.

It seems that upgrading the entire power train and making constructional modifications is, indeed, the only really practical option for improving performance to match the marketing hype without drastically reducing the flight times or inducing further issues!

So, I think I just need to accept the Riot for what it really is and to perhaps “upgrade” my own performance and flying style by flying it in a much smaller chunk of my available sky whilst getting my backside in gear to get some model repairing and building done!

For me, at least, and as someone alluded to, spending further time and money on the Riot probably isn’t a worthwhile strategy!

Having said all that, I would not totally discourage a beginner, on a budget, from buying one!

Thanks, everybody!

Oh, and belated Happy New Year!

 

 

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 05/01/2020 14:18:54

[Jeffrey Cottrell 2]

Hi Keith

No complaints from me, mate. Glad to have you with us.
However I would like to question a couple of things from your post.
First of all, one of the fun things with this hobby is everyone gets what they want from a model.
Both Colin and Kim are happy with the performance, glad to hear it.
Me, I'm a bit of a tinkerer, always thinking there is more to be had. Having said that I'm not contemplating major changes.
Like anyone else on here, I've broken a prop from time to time. Wouldn't think twice about replacing one, so changing to a different size is really no biggy.
Same with the Lipo. I use 2200 3s currently (ahem) but they also power my helicopters and quad so getting some different ones for the Riot is no worry.
Won't know for sure until they arrive but I'm convinced those Turnigy ones will fit without modding the battery carrier.
If they won't, might have to re-think.but I don't intend to 'upgrade the entire power train' or do any extensive airframe mods.
Small steps does it for me

Jeff

[Neil67]

Slightly off topic, but several people have discussed taking the steel weight out of the riot and state that this moves the c of g backwards, ok, however....

With a 3s battery my riot balances almost neutral, marginally nose down, with the 3s fully forward based on the balance point given in the instructions. Am I correct in assuming that a 4s is required, again fully forward to compensate for the removal of the weight, or am I completly missing the point.

I inadvertently flew it one day with the 3s fully back, senior moment, rushing, and it was very tail heavy and almost impossible to fly without loads of extra down trim. With a 4s, Century did advise taking out the weight and fitting a different prop but will the extra weight of 4s compensate, from the thread it appears it does?

My V1 flys well reasonably well although as others have said not exactly riot status. Fine for a lazy summers day with no surprises. A club mate has the Rukus which appears very similar, Riot with low wing but has a lot of fun with it compared to his Riot.

[Keith Miles 2]

Jeffrey,

I don’t believe I said anything different to what you are saying.

We do, indeed, all get what we want from a model. No argument, there. None whatsoever.

My issue is that I didn’t get what I expected, due to, in my view, exaggerated claims by the manufacturer and comparisons, heard and read elsewhere (not in this thread!) with a Wot4, as opposed to the Wot4e.

I understand why businesses might do that,, but Century have never, to my knowledge, made Wot4 comparisons.

As I said before, as the Riot and the IC/EP Wot4 are virtually the same size, with the Riot lighter, and irrespective of the hype, I was reasonably expecting at least similar performance and just a shorter flight time.

It would be interesting to know how the Riot compares with an electric powered Wot4 with its basic recommended set up and no “upgrades” but I am unlikely to be spending money on such an experiment!

What I do now know is that a fairly described and not over-egged, 46 powered Wot4 has far superior power and aerobatic capability than a physically similar and similarly designed Riot and, yes, that means that the Wot4 does need more sky for equitable comfort!

If, indeed, an EP version Wot4 (with standard recommended set up) has a performance no better than the much cheaper Riot.......well, you can probably guess what my views would be on that one!

Happy landings, y’all

P.S. And small steps is certainly wise with electric power to avoid big smoke.

For example, during a conversation this morning, it seems that even some experienced people believe that the ESC maximum rated current is the maximum figure we should look for on the clamp meter when testing prop combinations rather than the maximum rated current of the motor.

The Riot has a stated 40A ESC but motor maximum current is not stated. At that size, it is likely to be about 30A.

Nothing wrong with the combination but spot the possible “gotcha”!

😊

 

 

 

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 05/01/2020 22:16:33

[Kim Taylor]

Posted by Neil67 on 05/01/2020 20:03:38:

Slightly off topic, but several people have discussed taking the steel weight out of the riot and state that this moves the c of g backwards, ok, however....

With a 3s battery my riot balances almost neutral, marginally nose down, with the 3s fully forward based on the balance point given in the instructions. Am I correct in assuming that a 4s is required, again fully forward to compensate for the removal of the weight, or am I completly missing the point.

I inadvertently flew it one day with the 3s fully back, senior moment, rushing, and it was very tail heavy and almost impossible to fly without loads of extra down trim. With a 4s, Century did advise taking out the weight and fitting a different prop but will the extra weight of 4s compensate, from the thread it appears it does?

My V1 flys well reasonably well although as others have said not exactly riot status. Fine for a lazy summers day with no surprises. A club mate has the Rukus which appears very similar, Riot with low wing but has a lot of fun with it compared to his Riot.

Hi Neil67

I guess it all depends on whether you've got it balanced at the forward or rearward end of the 75 - 90mm range in the manual before you change anything.

For whatever it's worth, I fly my Riot (currently on my 2nd, a V2) with a 3200 3S, which basically fills the battery tray, and with the weight removed. Mine balances just aft of the rearmost (90mm) recommended by Century for "initial flights". From memory, it's at about 93mm. Now I don't claim to be an 'ace' flyer, or have the reflexes of a cat, but for me, it's entirely stable and controllable at that.

As you can see, no room to really move the battery, although on my first Riot I re-routed the esc wiring and had the battery pushed fully aft in the tray, so maybe 10mm further back. By the time I 'retired' that one, it had gained so much weight through being repaired that tbh I have no idea where the c of g actually was!!

By the way, in case anybody's wondering, the wiring and connector is tucked up in the void between the battery tray and the plywood subframe.

I'll be back later in the week with my amp and rpm readings, as promised in an earlier posting.

Kim

[Keith Miles 2]

Kim,

Still lurking!

I seem, somehow to have a missed trick there! Along with a pair of APC 13x6.5 props that I was recommended to buy at the MS at the time (and won’t now be using!) it seems that I should have waited and bought different batteries as well instead of ones that required cutting out the tray base!

Oh, well. Another lesson learned!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 06/01/2020 03:27:10

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 06/01/2020 03:37:34

[Jeffrey Cottrell 2]

Hi Keith

Unless I'm mistaken, Kim is using these, which show as 22mm deep. Should fit the battery bay with room to spare.

Jeff

[Keith Miles 2]

*Posted by Jeffrey Cottrell 2 on 06/01/2020 08:52:51:

Hi Keith

Unless I'm mistaken, Kim is using these, which show as 22mm deep. Should fit the battery bay with room to spare.

Jeff

Yes, the one in the photograph!

Model shops don’t sell Turnigy nor, necessarily, other batteries that will fit without cutting away the base of the tray, hence my comment about having spent my money prematurely!

And I’m guessing that even that 3S Turnigy (22mm deep) barely clears the hatch cover once the strap is on and provided that it doesn’t puff up!

And, as for the 13x6.5 props I was sold, and as Century seem to agree, the 40A ESC might cope with the increased current without a premature failure but the stock motor, probably no more than 30A rated, might not!

The same two issues will arise with a 4S battery which is why, for one thing, Century seem to advise reducing the prop to 10x6 (to keep the current down) and why it will probably be necessary to modify the tray to get any 4S battery in.

Maybe Century, as I suggested previously, have reduced the supplied prop size because they were getting too many complaints about motor and ESC failures!

Seems to me, as at least one contributor has found, that the only “upgrade” that is worthwhile in terms of performance without risking component failure requires replacing the battery, the motor, the prop and the ESC!

And as has also been said, it could be argued that it might have been more cost effective to have bought a different model!

Oh, and just putting any larger battery in will also increase weight, further reducing the watts per pound figure!

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 06/01/2020 11:05:55

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 06/01/2020 11:10:28

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 06/01/2020 11:16:44

[Peter Beeney]

Keith,

With the greatest respect of course, but may I ask if you think that all Riots ‘are from the outset, marginally powered?’ Or is that just some models? Or have I totally misread that anyway? I’m only asking because in my experience I would think that a standard Riot does at least have adequate power.

The chap flying the Riot in the video that I highlighted, one of the first and using (presumably) the rather limited recommended first flight control surface movements, in a 16mph wind gusting to 29, made a pretty good fist of it in my humble opinion, but by the same token and with the best will in the world he could have only done this with sufficient power available. In the past I’ve flown other models belonging to other people that were less capable than that, both i/c and electric.

From your first flight description I still tend to think that your power train may have some sort of a problem; therefore it should be possible to find out what it might be.

Also it’s possible to upgrade the performance without too much hassle and expense. I simply changed to 4 cells and a different propeller. I only did the servo mods because I thought that the existing setup was not really capable of coping with the increased power and speed, at least in the fashion that I was flying it anyway. Of course, other pilots that use 4S may well be more than happy with it as it is.

With a measured 33.3 amps of current flow at full throttle I also felt this was not really going to overtax any of the hurry up stuff in the front either; and indeed, when I checked occasionally everything was well within the hot limits. That’s only another of my ‘for better or worse quirky ideas’, if a component is cool and collected under all conditions there is unlikely to be any excess current to cause it harm. Maybe all that extra air rushing though the cowl at high speed was helping this effect. A beneficial result from unexpected consequences for once.

Just a few observations in an idle moment really, simply my curiosity rather getting the better of me…..

PB

[Colin Carpenter]

A bit off the Riot topic , but I have a Pelikan Ballet . It’s a ST Models Acrobat in a different colour scheme. About flight 70 the motor gave out ! A direct replacement motor was about £60 ! Wasn’t paying that when it only cost £113 😤. I had an Extreme Flight PA 40 motor hanging around so fitted that ! As far as I can tell it flies the same ! I wouldn’t have paid more than 20 quid to remotor a foamie so I’m happy with how it’s turned out ! ST make the Acrowot Foam E and the Ballet has the same awful battery loading system ! Flys great though ! Foamies are like cheap shoes. You don’t bother getting them repaired 😂😂😂😂. Colin

[Kim Taylor]

Posted by Keith Miles 2 on 06/01/2020 11:01:26:

*Posted by Jeffrey Cottrell 2 on 06/01/2020 08:52:51:

Hi Keith

Unless I'm mistaken, Kim is using these, which show as 22mm deep. Should fit the battery bay with room to spare.

Jeff

Yes, the one in the photograph!

And I’m guessing that even that 3S Turnigy (22mm deep) barely clears the hatch cover once the strap is on and provided that it doesn’t puff up!

Oh, and just putting any larger battery in will also increase weight, further reducing the watts per pound figure!

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 06/01/2020 11:05:55

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 06/01/2020 11:10:28

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 06/01/2020 11:16:44

No, I've got a couple of slightly puffed ones as well, and there's no problem closing the hatch.

Don't forget you can lose the weight of the er....... weight (previously buried in the nose).

Iirc, that is about 80 - 100g, so overall, you probably lose a little weight, so watts/lb goes up a bit.

Kim