Is the hobby dying/dead

[Roger Jones 3]

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 25/01/2021 10:34:14:

Posted by David Holland 2 on 25/01/2021 09:30:56:

Oh, Andy, please don’t ruin a good whinge thread by using rational argument and, heaven forbid, actual facts.

Apologies, I will turn of my rationality chip.

According to the CAA one million quad type device sold in the UK. Approx 30,000 members of the BMFA (so I believe). UK population approx 60,000,000

Cost of BMFA membership £40 annually. Cost of CAA 'ticket' £9 annually. Cost of 'quad' typically £50-£100. Many of which will be 'once only' purchases discarded when the next gadget appears.

59,970,000 people don't care about your rationality chip, the BMFA, and possibly the CAA 'ticket'.

Unlike the Environment Agency which sells over a million fishing licenses annually and actually DOES things for anglers, including an interesting monthly email newsletter, often including videos, about its many works to improve angling, the CAA does nothing for us except make us pay an annual £9 for restrictions on our activities.

Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 11:26:24

[Tim Kearsley]

Posted by David Holland 2 on 25/01/2021 09:30:56:

Oh, Andy, please don’t ruin a good whinge thread by using rational argument and, heaven forbid, actual facts.

Well said David!

[Dickw]

Posted by Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 11:25:07:

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 25/01/2021 10:34:14:

Posted by David Holland 2 on 25/01/2021 09:30:56:

Oh, Andy, please don’t ruin a good whinge thread by using rational argument and, heaven forbid, actual facts.

Apologies, I will turn of my rationality chip.

According to the CAA one million quad type device sold in the UK. Approx 30,000 members of the BMFA (so I believe). UK population approx 60,000,000

Cost of BMFA membership £40 annually. Cost of CAA 'ticket' £9 annually. Cost of 'quad' typically £50-£100. Many of which will be 'once only' purchases discarded when the next gadget appears.

59,970,000 people don't care about your rationality chip, the BMFA, and possibly the CAA 'ticket'.

Unlike the Environment Agency which sells over a million fishing licenses annually and actually DOES things for anglers, including an interesting monthly email newsletter, often including videos, about its many works to improve angling, the CAA does nothing for us except make us pay an annual £9 for restrictions on our activities.

Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 11:26:24

And your point is?????

Dick

[Roger Jones 3]

Posted by Dickw on 25/01/2021 11:58:24:

Posted by Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 11:25:07:

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 25/01/2021 10:34:14:

Posted by David Holland 2 on 25/01/2021 09:30:56:

Oh, Andy, please don’t ruin a good whinge thread by using rational argument and, heaven forbid, actual facts.

Apologies, I will turn of my rationality chip.

According to the CAA one million quad type device sold in the UK. Approx 30,000 members of the BMFA (so I believe). UK population approx 60,000,000

Cost of BMFA membership £40 annually. Cost of CAA 'ticket' £9 annually. Cost of 'quad' typically £50-£100. Many of which will be 'once only' purchases discarded when the next gadget appears.

59,970,000 people don't care about your rationality chip, the BMFA, and possibly the CAA 'ticket'.

Unlike the Environment Agency which sells over a million fishing licenses annually and actually DOES things for anglers, including an interesting monthly email newsletter, often including videos, about its many works to improve angling, the CAA does nothing for us except make us pay an annual £9 for restrictions on our activities.

Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 11:26:24

And your point is?????

Dick

Mostly that the CAA rules won't stop ANYONE who flies illegally from doing so. Simply because they won't put any registration on the plane.

And being 'remote controlled' they can't know who you are unless they catch you actually controlling it.

One million licensed anglers. In over 50 years of frequent fishing nobody has ever asked me to produce the license (which I always have). Same will be true of this.

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

Posted by Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 12:16:46:

Mostly that the CAA rules won't stop ANYONE who flies illegally from doing so. Simply because they won't put any registration on the plane.

More importantly they won't stop anyone getting involved with our wonderful sport as long as people stop trying to persuade them its all complicated and a massive hurdle when it really really isn't

[Matt Carlton]

Whether the rules work, whether they don't, whether the CAA is useful or not is pretty irrelevant isn't it? If the cost of me continuing to fly legally is £9 and a 5 minute quiz, it's hardly an inconvenience and it's certainly not going to go away. We can all complain about it, but it is what it is.

Sure, it won't stop illicit users of drones etc, just as the price of car insurance doesn't put off people who drive without it or steal cars. That doesn't give us a reason to not have car insurance though.

 

 

Edited By Matt Carlton on 25/01/2021 12:48:16

[Roger Jones 3]

Posted by Matt Carlton on 25/01/2021 12:47:54:

Whether the rules work, whether they don't, whether the CAA is useful or not is pretty irrelevant isn't it? If the cost of me continuing to fly legally is £9 and a 5 minute quiz, it's hardly an inconvenience and it's certainly not going to go away. We can all complain about it, but it is what it is.

Sure, it won't stop illicit users of drones etc, just as the price of car insurance doesn't put off people who drive without it or steal cars.

That doesn't give us a reason to not have car insurance though.

Edited By Matt Carlton on 25/01/2021 12:48:16

I broadly agree.

But it's just another law that will not be enforced, and will be and is ignored by the majority of 'quad' type flyers - 1,000,000 eligible 'quads' purchased, 114,000 tests taken (presumably including all 30,000 active BMFA members, one of which is myself).

So pointless. And we get nothing for it.

Further, My full-size flying license is a one-off payment and lasts my lifetime provided I am not medically disqualified. Same for my driving license until age 70 and then the 5 year renewal is free, I can operate a boat of any size I can afford with no license at all provided I don't do it commercially. The 'drone' license lasts only a year and requires a re-test every three. Why?

Car insurance? Not relevant. There is no legal requirement for 'drone' or 'regular' model aircraft insurance.

Andy is being 'positive' as he has to be as a BMFA official. I have no argument with him doing that but he only represents 30,000 people.

Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 14:00:46

[Phil McCavity]

Posted by Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 13:52:12:

I broadly agree.

But it's just another law that will not be enforced, and will be and is ignored by the majority of 'quad' type flyers - 1,000,000 eligible 'quads' purchased, 114,000 tests taken (presumably including all 30,000 active BMFA members, one of which is myself).

So pointless. And we get nothing for it.

Further, My full-size flying license is a one-off payment and lasts my lifetime provided I am not medically disqualified. Same for my driving license until age 70 and then the 5 year renewal is free, I can operate a boat of any size I can afford with no license at all provided I don't do it commercially. The 'drone' license lasts only a year and requires a re-test every three. Why?

Car insurance? Not relevant. There is no legal requirement for 'drone' or 'regular' model aircraft insurance.

There are many laws passed that are not openly enforced but they are put in place to fill an omission as times change for when they are needed. Up to now there was no clear law to prosecute somebody flying illegally because there was no definition of 'illegal flying', it would have to be done under some other probably ancient legislation to get to court even if they were caught red handed, now if somebody is found to be doing so there is a definition and a precise law to get them prosecuted directly so not pointless at all. Isn't this what we've been asking for since quad-copters became readily and cheaply available?

 

Edited By Phil McCavity on 25/01/2021 14:08:24

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

Posted by Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 13:52:12:

Andy is being 'positive' as he has to be as a BMFA official. I have no argument with him doing that but he only represents 30,000 people.

Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 14:00:46

I'm being positive because there is no reason to be negative. Its never been easier to get involved, the regulatory burden is simple to comply with and still very light and equipment is remarkably cheap.

[Phil McCavity]

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 25/01/2021 14:13:01:

Posted by Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 13:52:12:

Andy is being 'positive' as he has to be as a BMFA official. I have no argument with him doing that but he only represents 30,000 people.

Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 14:00:46

I'm being positive because there is no reason to be negative. Its never been easier to get involved, the regulatory burden is simple to comply with and still very light and equipment is remarkably cheap.

Demonstrably true.

 "Only 30,000" is a significant number and the BMFA being the recognised representative body aren't just in it for the benefit of just their members their own members, they represent the hobby.

 

Edited By Phil McCavity on 25/01/2021 14:25:43

[Ray Wood 4]

Hi All,

Remember those good old days before Social Media Forums, when we were all happier building models and flying them ? You only moaned to your clubmates and they didn't care

Regards Ray

[Phil McCavity]

You wouldn't be able to join in here Ray if it were not for social media. 

Edited By Phil McCavity on 25/01/2021 14:27:49

[Roger Jones 3]

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 25/01/2021 14:13:01:

Posted by Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 13:52:12:

Andy is being 'positive' as he has to be as a BMFA official. I have no argument with him doing that but he only represents 30,000 people.

Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 14:00:46

I'm being positive because there is no reason to be negative. Its never been easier to get involved, the regulatory burden is simple to comply with and still very light and equipment is remarkably cheap.

Fine. If you like taking a test every three years, paying an annual fee, and writing a number on all your planes it's ok by me.

But as you point out it's another "burden".

[Roger Jones 3]

Posted by Ray Wood 4 on 25/01/2021 14:23:53:

Hi All,

Remember those good old days before Social Media Forums, when we were all happier building models and flying them ? You only moaned to your clubmates and they didn't care

Regards Ray

Dead right. I don't tell any of my friends I am on any sort of forum.

My wife knows but doesn't mind. She likes it that she is the only one of her circle who owns a genuine nerd

[Lima Hotel Foxtrot]

Posted by Matt Carlton on 25/01/2021 11:15:13:

"Anybody who tars all games and all gamers with the same brush should try playing some of them and employing a bit of unbiased critical appraisal. Yes, some are simplistic but there are a lot where the learning curve is incredibly steep"

I have been a gamer for decades. I play Fortnite, Apex, PubG, COD, Outer World's, Fallout, The Witcher etc etc, so please don't make assumptions about me. My point is that in comparison with the virtual world which a lot of people inhabit, the real one can't compete, not that gaming is simplistic.

Just because someone uses a quote from your post, it does not mean that their post is aimed at you. More often than not the quote is being used as an illustration or a starting point for a counter argument.

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

Posted by Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 14:30:54:
Fine. If you like taking a test every three years, paying an annual fee, and writing a number on all your planes it's ok by me.

But as you point out it's another "burden".

Paying an annual fee to the CAA is at worst a minor irritation, pointless apart from it ensures we are lawful, but only a minor irritation.

The test is now one every 5 years so an example where the regulatory burden is actually even lighter in 2021 from 2020, and as it is a very simple test that demonstrates we are up to speed on what we need to know to remain lawful is a burden so small that if its too much for anyone they really must have something major going on in their lives and I can only hope they get it sorted and they have my best wishes.

Putting a label on or in my aircraft couldn't be classed as any sort of burden either unless I was determined to make things seem more challenging than they actually are.

[Phil McCavity]

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 25/01/2021 15:18:00:

Posted by Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 14:30:54:
Fine. If you like taking a test every three years, paying an annual fee, and writing a number on all your planes it's ok by me.

But as you point out it's another "burden".

Paying an annual fee to the CAA is at worst a minor irritation, pointless apart from it ensures we are lawful, but only a minor irritation.

The test is now one every 5 years so an example where the regulatory burden is actually even lighter in 2021 from 2020, and as it is a very simple test that demonstrates we are up to speed on what we need to know to remain lawful is a burden so small that if its too much for anyone they really must have something major going on in their lives and I can only hope they get it sorted and they have my best wishes.

Putting a label on or in my aircraft couldn't be classed as any sort of burden either unless I was determined to make things seem more challenging than they actually are.

It actually amounts to sticking a piece of tape on the wing and writing on it! It's really no "Burden".

The only burden is having to pay an annual fee but that's the future, it's done, it's not going to change.

[MattyB]

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 25/01/2021 15:18:00:

Posted by Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 14:30:54:
Fine. If you like taking a test every three years, paying an annual fee, and writing a number on all your planes it's ok by me.

But as you point out it's another "burden".

Paying an annual fee to the CAA is at worst a minor irritation, pointless apart from it ensures we are lawful, but only a minor irritation.

The test is now one every 5 years so an example where the regulatory burden is actually even lighter in 2021 from 2020, and as it is a very simple test that demonstrates we are up to speed on what we need to know to remain lawful is a burden so small that if its too much for anyone they really must have something major going on in their lives and I can only hope they get it sorted and they have my best wishes.

Putting a label on or in my aircraft couldn't be classed as any sort of burden either unless I was determined to make things seem more challenging than they actually are.

I agree that for the moment the regulatory burden is relatively light, and that the current Article 16 Authorisation is an excellent result for us. My concern is our ability to maintain that over time and overall trajectory of regulation globally, especailly when you see what is happening in Europe and the US.

The Article 16 authorisation is great for now, but it has to be renewed every year, at least initially. I worry that many members will not comply with aspects of it that could come back to bite us collectively, most obviously pieces like the need to conduct RAs for "built up" flying sites and report flyaways etc. Any transgressions by association members are likely to result in an erosion of our new found privileges.

If remote ID becomes mandatory in the future (remember the Sec of State has already said he wants to move forward with it asap) it will definitely push a percentage people out of the hobby (many people I fly with have told me it would be "final straw" moment for them). It may not discourage newcomers buying RTF machines already equipped to comply, but will certainly discourage them from the the more traditional forms of aeromodelling which will become more complex and expensive.

Ultimately we have to remember we are in competition with many more activities than in aeromodeliings heyday, and any barrier (perceived or actual) will have an effect on participation. Whilst I am thankful for the work of the BMFA and the other national associations (who have been dramatically more effective than the AMA in the US) I'm not confident they will be able to effectively fight the rising tide of regulation backed by big business interests. I hope I'm wrong, but only time will tell.

[Roo Hawkins]

I think yes it is about dead. I have been flying for more than 20 years but the last 2 years have been so hard. I am going to give it this year and if I feel no better life will be giving up. I have also started windsurfing again after a long break and it is less stressful. But I will store my gliders away and see what happens in later life.

[Roger Jones 3]

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 25/01/2021 15:18:00:

Posted by Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 14:30:54:
Fine. If you like taking a test every three years, paying an annual fee, and writing a number on all your planes it's ok by me.

But as you point out it's another "burden".

Paying an annual fee to the CAA is at worst a minor irritation, pointless apart from it ensures we are lawful, but only a minor irritation.

The test is now one every 5 years so an example where the regulatory burden is actually even lighter in 2021 from 2020, and as it is a very simple test that demonstrates we are up to speed on what we need to know to remain lawful is a burden so small that if its too much for anyone they really must have something major going on in their lives and I can only hope they get it sorted and they have my best wishes.

Putting a label on or in my aircraft couldn't be classed as any sort of burden either unless I was determined to make things seem more challenging than they actually are.

Burden, minor irritation, whatever. it doesn't alter the fact that it's another 'hurdle' for the potential beginner.

As are some others. Such as some clubs requiring a BMFA 'A' certificate when the BMFA itself has stated several times that it was never intended to be any kind of licence.. Or the clamp down by many local authorities on where you can fly.

Despite what you say this all makes it harder and harder, certainly NOT 'easier' as you said earlier on.

And as others have said, there are more and more alternative activities which require none of this stuff. Model aircraft take a certain amount of determination and commitment and it is not generally a 'low cost' activity.

We have to accept the possibility of it declining, as are many other outdoor hobbies that require money and commitment. UK fishing licences, which are a legal requirement with severe penalties for fishing without one, but which give you NO right to fish anywhere, have declined in sales from four million a year to one million a year in the last twenty or thirty years,

And aircraft are no longer 'special' (just go to a big air display and see how many spectators rush to the beer tent when the Extras and suchlike come on). So there is no reason models are either.

I don't have any answers but I don't think anyone else has either. Also if people don't want to do it so what?

[Stuart Z]

Posted by Ray Wood 4 on 25/01/2021 14:23:53:

Hi All,

Remember those good old days before Social Media Forums, when we were all happier building models and flying them ? You only moaned to your clubmates and they didn't care

Regards Ray

Agreed, the lockdown will end and flying will get going again and I for one am pleased that the BMFA are doing their stuff. Looking forward to getting a plane in the air!

S

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

Posted by MattyB on 25/01/2021 15:57:49:

Ultimately we have to remember we are in competition with many more activities than in aeromodeliings heyday, and any barrier (perceived or actual) will have an effect on participation. Whilst I am thankful for the work of the BMFA and the other national associations (who have been dramatically more effective than the AMA in the US) I'm not confident they will be able to effectively fight the rising tide of regulation backed by big business interests. I hope I'm wrong, but only time will tell.

We are indeed in competition with many more activities, which is why we don't need those already within magnifying the size of any barriers that are there beyond all reality. Tell people the barriers are high and complicated and they will believe it and will be put off from getting involved, it is very damaging. I can't think of a more effective way of killing model flying off.

There are a few barriers to participation, they are small and they are easily cleared without breaking step and certainly not worthy of all the angst and very damaging negativity that people are putting out.

Lets keep some perspective, tell people that any barriers are small and easily cleared, put your energies in to attracting new blood not actively pushing people towards other activities.

I really struggle to see the motivation to talk down our amazing sport and all its amazing facets.

[Stuart Z]

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 25/01/2021 16:47:29:

Posted by MattyB on 25/01/2021 15:57:49:

Ultimately we have to remember we are in competition with many more activities than in aeromodeliings heyday, and any barrier (perceived or actual) will have an effect on participation. Whilst I am thankful for the work of the BMFA and the other national associations (who have been dramatically more effective than the AMA in the US) I'm not confident they will be able to effectively fight the rising tide of regulation backed by big business interests. I hope I'm wrong, but only time will tell.

We are indeed in competition with many more activities, which is why we don't need those already within magnifying the size of any barriers that are there beyond all reality. Tell people the barriers are high and complicated and they will believe it and will be put off from getting involved, it is very damaging. I can't think of a more effective way of killing model flying off.

There are a few barriers to participation, they are small and they are easily cleared without breaking step and certainly not worthy of all the angst and very damaging negativity that people are putting out.

Lets keep some perspective, tell people that any barriers are small and easily cleared, put your energies in to attracting new blood not actively pushing people towards other activities.

I really struggle to see the motivation to talk down our amazing sport and all its amazing facets.

Spot on Andy!

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I'm with Andy Symons, talk your hobby up, I very much doubt your so gloomy when out flying.

Why keep dwelling on what's done and we can't alter ?

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

A couple of years ago I wrote a bit in the BMFA news about how wonderful our sport/hobby is, I adapted it for a Facebook group which had the doom-mongers talking model flying down at the time. I think it may be worth adding it here. Feel free to add your positives to the list! Need to do it over a couple of posts as its a bit long. (Sorry)

Time to be positive about what we do folks, too much negativity in this group and too many incorrect and frankly damaging negative posts going on. Lets actually start to give an accurate picture of what we do and how wonderful flying model aircraft of all types is! This group should be promoting all the good things about our sport.

Reasons to be positive, a list to get things started! (In no particular order)

1) Wonderful people! What makes any activity worth doing is the people.

2) Model flying clubs, advice, banter, training, support, quite simply the best place to go to get started in our wonderful sport.

3) The chance to get off on your own to a slope or open space to fly on your own, just you and you model!

4) The sheer variety of what we do!

5) The BMFA, we get so much for so little, what a bargain. Especially the work in Europe and with the CAA/DFT, led by the BMFA CEO to reduce the impact of any new regulation on us. Priceless!

6) Great for all ages and abilities.

7) The competition scene, the sportsmanship, the talent!

8) Those relaxing sport flying sessions on a lovely afternoon at the club.

9) Awesome scale model aircraft, real works of art that very talented builders lavish love and hours of dedication to build, then risk them flying in all sorts of conditions.

10) Foamies!! Brilliant for those without the knowledge to build, or the time, but still let people experience flying a model aircraft.