Is the hobby dying/dead

[Nigel R]

Posted by EvilC57 on 26/01/2021 15:10:08:

I’ve lost count of the number of teenagers we’ve had come along to our club for a season or two, and then they reach exam time and we never see them again. I guess then they go off to college or uni, discover beer, girls, careers and mortgages; and they come back about 30 years later (like I did) when they’re in their 40s.

Guilty as charged.

[Nigel R]

Posted by Alan Gorham_ on 26/01/2021 15:44:01:

Well one of my points was about facilities at a "typical" R/C flying club field. I totally agree with you that indoor flying might be a way of making a safer, more youngster friendly environment. Perhaps the fact that indoor models need less support equipment also makes it more acceptable as a staring point for youngsters.

Indoor stuff is overall far cheaper and avoids a lot of the legal arguments which don't cover indoors stuff.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

We've had some great young lads over the years, one made Examiner when he was 16-17 sadly life and family took him away.

Another went on to get his full size license, ended up on commercial jets, covid has turned his life upside down.

Hopefully they'll be back some day.

[Erfolg]

What seems to being ignored is that young people, however defined, are not being attracted into the hobby.

Many people have tried many different approaches to making this happen, it has not to date. Those who have tried can be said to have done everything they could. These efforts have not lacked imagination or commitment or even time. Yet it has not happened. It is not sensible to hope that any substantial way this will Change in the foreseeable future.

IMO we need to ensure that as many currently modellers continue to do so.

I see the CAA regs as a serious obstacle to attracting and keeping modelers, the hobby needs to limit the impact as best we can. The hobby needs to resist, as best we can, mission creep by both legislators and the regulator.

Covid has had a far greater impact on the hobby than I thought. The good bit, is more spends on new models. The downside, many have been unable to fly for a considerable period, this situation shows no short term improvement.

Edited By Erfolg on 26/01/2021 17:19:46

[Piers Bowlan]

As a general observation, many of the forum posters frequently make references to how they built not just models but motorbikes, boats etc. when they were young, like Geoff S for instance. Likewise, many of my childhood memories are of me building 'stuff' too; in the garage, on the dining room table or in my room. If I wanted something, a plane, a boat, a rocket (!) I built it. I learnt the practical skills of how to make things. First visualising in my mind, then drawing a plan, before measuring, cutting, drilling, glueing, sanding, and finishing. A lot of what I made wasn't very good and it didn't always work too well but it did teach me a lot about materials and generally how to use tools, something so many young people seem to lack in my view.

I think this is, or will be, the difference for the next generation of aeromodellers whether they are trying to get into the hobby at age 20 or 40, they won't have the skills we had, even if they do have YouTube to give them some pointers. I appreciate that this is only a generalisation but a significant skills gap will be a barrier to many younger people having a desire (and confidence) to get into the hobby in the future. Especially when all they have been brought up with are computers.

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 26/01/2021 17:28:00

[Alan Gorham_]

Posted by Erfolg on 26/01/2021 17:18:20:

What seems to being ignored is that young people, however defined, are not being attracted into the hobby.

IMO we need to ensure that as many currently modellers continue to do so.

I see the CAA regs as a serious obstacle to attracting and keeping modelers, the hobby needs to limit the impact as best we can. The hobby needs to resist, as best we can, mission creep by both legislators and the regulator.

Well we did just spend the last two pages of this thread discussing the fact that youngsters aren't coming into the hobby, but hey ho...

We need to ensure that ANYBODY who wishes to enter the hobby is able to do so, but if the hobby is not attractive enough to our potential audience then that is difficult thing to change...

WHY are paying a registration fee and taking a quick test a "serious obstacle"? It doesn't seem to be a "serious obstacle" to millions of people in this country getting a passport or taking a driving test.

If I was a kid who was mildly interested in trying this hobby my first questions before any consideration of taking a test or registering would be more like:

Where can I go to do this hobby?

How do I get there?

Can I go on my own (or do I have to get my parents to take me)?

Who will help/teach me?

How much stuff do I need to start this hobby?

How much will it cost?

How much time will I need to spend to get anywhere with the hobby?

If they can answer all those questions and find the time/money/parental commitment to start, then I would suggest that paying £9 online and doing a multi-guess test online would be "childsplay".

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

Posted by Erfolg on 26/01/2021 17:18:20:

I see the CAA regs as a serious obstacle to attracting and keeping modelers, the hobby needs to limit the impact as best we can. The hobby needs to resist, as best we can, mission creep by both legislators and the regulator.

 

Edited By Erfolg on 26/01/2021 17:19:46

I see people telling other people that the CAA Regs are a serious obstacle to attracting and keeping modelers (they really aren't you know) as being a much more serious obstacle to attracting and keeping modelers.

I've just come off a phone call from a long time modeller who was on the verge of giving it all up because of this so called serious obstacle that he has been reading about online, once I explained what was what his response was, 'But that's what we've been doing for years!'

Thankfully he bothered to ring up and get an accurate and realistic portrayal of the regulations otherwise it could have been another modeller lost to social media negativity and exaggeration.

Edited By Andy Symons - BMFA on 26/01/2021 17:34:44

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

We had a talk off Andy at a club night, 3 of our old lads had been fretting over the test, (been reading and listening to people) Andy sat them down and they did their tests, all passed, grins all round.

[Erfolg]

The points Alan has made, are truly valid. To them, can be added registration etc. All of these factors are often made when considering what we should do. The arithmetic made by individuals will vary. A long list is probably going to contain enough issues to reach a decision of "lets not bother."

In fact my wife and I made a similar calculation this year with respect to holidaying in Lanzerote, as I do not like the cold. To many obstacles, unknowns and anticipated issues and policies that could cause a problem

Yes, we do make calculations with respect driving licenses, Passports. It is not unusual, in that is often how we decide what to do, the benefit must generally be perceived as greater than the debit.

Registration is not something we have always done. Restrictions with respect to age, did not apply when I was young. I did not to take a test until recently. Let us not kid ourselves that things have not changed. Do they matter, they will to some, however much others think everything is OK.

The future is not clearly known, we also need to understand the present, to be able to consider the options for the future.

I understood that BMFA is implementing change to adapt to the future. I can only applaud the recognition that we must adapt, to ensure that we have a viable future.

[Alan Gorham_]

It's perfectly possible to fly a flying model and become an aeromodeller legally without "registering" or taking a test. By flying models that are exempt. So even if the trivial aspects of registering are too much for a potential newcomer then they are not a bar to aspects of our great hobby.

Also you could argue that buying golf clubs and shoes and whatnot plus paying golf club membership is a bar to playing golf. But it's not is it?

The same as buying a fishing license isnt a bar to fishing.

Edited By Alan Gorham_ on 26/01/2021 18:42:23

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

There are 2 ways to approach the subject of the regulations when asked.

1. There are some regulations around model aircraft flying, but nothing to worry about, mostly common sense, yes you have to pay a £9 CAA registration fee that you don't get much in return for and you have to take a test every 5 years, but the test is really straight forward and pretty much an open book test and at the end of it you get told all the answers and you get to have another go if you didn't get enough right. So all quite simple really.
   
2. There are loads of really complicated regulations, its really difficult to find somewhere to fly and you have to pay a silly tax to the government then you have to answer 40 questions in a test, its all over the top and not like it used to be in the old days.

1 is realistic and the actual situation, 2 will have a potential newcomer running off to find another pastime to get involved in.

What I find most astounding is that it is some that are already in the sport that are telling people that 2 is realistic.

[Alan Gorham_]

While simultaneously lamenting the lack of newcomers. It's as if they don't want anyone new...

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

What I feel many people are missing is the assumption that things are different because children aren't coming into RC flying. Was this the case when those of us with grey hairs were young? Yes, I dreamt of RC flying but being able to afford it was something that came with earning a wage.

At the risk of sounding like a Yorkshireman in a Monty Python sketch, I have to agree with Piers. My aeromodelling revolved around Keil Kraft stick and tissue rubber powered allegedly flying scale models, free flight gliders, free flight (DC Merlin) powered models and finally control line with a constant stream of Airfix non flying plastic kits being built, painted, admired and destroyed by bangers in the autumn and airgun pellets once the novelty had worn off. We scoured the hedgerows for old bicycle parts to build our own precursors to mountain bikes (trackers, we called them) with chunkier tyres and cowhorn handlebars to save our "racers" with derailleur gears and dropped handlebars for the road. We made a lot of our own entertainment e.g. trollies with old pram wheels and indoors was the place you went when the weather was too bad for fun and not cold enough for snowball fights!

Children these days will need to learn the skills of construction, modification, basic engineering etc. as adults if they should want to become modellers, which we absorbed along with realising which actions and mistakes could hurt us, before taking on modelling tasks that seem like second nature to those of earlier generations.

Edited By Martin Harris - Moderator on 26/01/2021 23:12:46

[Phil McCavity]

Is the lack of manual skills really a worry to the future of the hobby? Kids now are way more computer savvy than most of us ever will be, their balsa knife is now a CNC laser, their ruler and pencil is now a CAD package, they're more than capable of producing the parts from scratch needed for the assembly of a model, they can use a 3D printer almost from birth. Remember Robot Wars? There was no lack of youngsters competing in that who had helped design, build and control the robots in the competition.

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

Posted by Phil McCavity on 26/01/2021 19:44:21:

Is the lack of manual skills really a worry to the future of the hobby? Kids now are way more computer savvy than most of us ever will be, their balsa knife is now a CNC laser, their ruler and pencil is now a CAD package, they're more than capable of producing the parts from scratch needed for the assembly of a model, they can use a 3D printer almost from birth. Remember Robot Wars? There was no lack of youngsters competing in that who had helped design, build and control the robots in the competition.

[Erfolg]

We have all expressed our opinions as to why younger people are not entering our hobby.

I would also suggest not enough post 40 years are returning or entering the hobby to avoid a decline in participants in the hobby.

At present non of us has a solution.

As for skills required for modeling, at present possibly the majority of models flown are ARTF types. Not much in the way of skills are required to assemble such devices.

I am loath to say the hobby is doomed, yet recognise that it certainly that numerically there are fewer modelers and flyers than we had in the not to distant past.

My own thoughts are along the lines, you accept to a degree this reduction and plan accordingly, looking to spot an opportunity to halt and reverse the trend. The immediate challenge is survive the present so that there is a potentially a tomorrow. I think that the BMFA is doing this. There is nothing to stop us enjoying the present.

[eflightray]

Posted by Alan Gorham_ on 26/01/2021 17:32:40:

Posted by Erfolg on 26/01/2021 17:18:20:

What seems to being ignored is that young people, however defined, are not being attracted into the hobby.

IMO we need to ensure that as many currently modellers continue to do so.

I see the CAA regs as a serious obstacle to attracting and keeping modelers, the hobby needs to limit the impact as best we can. The hobby needs to resist, as best we can, mission creep by both legislators and the regulator.

Well we did just spend the last two pages of this thread discussing the fact that youngsters aren't coming into the hobby, but hey ho...

We need to ensure that ANYBODY who wishes to enter the hobby is able to do so, but if the hobby is not attractive enough to our potential audience then that is difficult thing to change...

WHY are paying a registration fee and taking a quick test a "serious obstacle"? It doesn't seem to be a "serious obstacle" to millions of people in this country getting a passport or taking a driving test.

If I was a kid who was mildly interested in trying this hobby my first questions before any consideration of taking a test or registering would be more like:

Where can I go to do this hobby?

How do I get there?

Can I go on my own (or do I have to get my parents to take me)?

Who will help/teach me?

How much stuff do I need to start this hobby?

How much will it cost?

How much time will I need to spend to get anywhere with the hobby?

If they can answer all those questions and find the time/money/parental commitment to start, then I would suggest that paying £9 online and doing a multi-guess test online would be "childsplay".

That, 'where can I go to do this hobby', I feel is probably the major drawback.

Golf and fishing costs where also used as a comparison, but if there is no local golf course, or local fishing waters, that also adds in the 'how can I get there, ' problem.

When I was young there seemed to be no problem of flying in the local park, local fields, local sports ground, local school facilities. But then came along 'health safety' (you can't d that here'. Fields get built on. and so the number of places you could learn to fly a model plane virtually own you own and within walking or cycling distance diminished.

The BMFA National Center, is a great idea, if you live within a reasonable distance. Pity it couldn't have been some link with local sports recreation grounds, etc, to share their grounds/facilities, and dare I say subsidised by the BMFA with some of that 'National', our, money, to give more people access. ?

Unless there is somewhere for new modelers to fly and enjoy their models, why would they be interested in aeromodelling as a hobby, it could become the equivalent of building plastic kits, pretty to look at, but what else can you do with them ?

Not having local facilities is probably the the main reason why any hobby/sport/outdoor interest see fewer new and younger people interested in having a go.

Ray.

If I loose my local site for any reason, that's the end of the hobby for me.

P.S. I fly within visual range of a large school, have done for quite a few years, safely. yet never had a single school kid come over to ask questions.

[Alan Gorham_]

You are misquoting me there on the golf and fishing costs...

Erfolg was stating that the registration requirements are now a potential bar to our hobby. My point was that a 9 quid fee and a once every 5years trivial online test are trivial bars to the hobby compared to either kitting up and paying for golf club membership or "registering" and kitting up to catch fish.

IE if neither of those things deter anglers or golfers then our new requirements are not a valid bar to newcomers to aero modelling.

So many of us longstanding modellers are bemoaning the lack of kids turning up at our flying sites but I bet when we started as kids we didnt start by going to an often private site, reached only by car to fly a multi channel rc model. We probably flew something simple, cheap and either free flying or tethered on public land close to home. Society has changed since then and it is pointless wondering why kids aren't interested in our hobby. I'll say again: far better to hook in the parents of young kids now The parents will be an influx of new blood who have the resources to pursue the hobby while the kids get exposed to it ready to consider a return when they reach the stage of having time and resource to participate.

[i12fly]

As Alan G says above (and I did on p7) target the parents, then get them to bring their children. That way you avoid any issues about regulations.

A couple of years ago regs looked to be frightening, but BMFA have done a pretty good job in negotiating our corner so it really is very very simple. Unfortunately some people seem to be still with the mindset of a couple of years ago.

The issues with youngsters are getting to a flying site (as Alan points out) and handling the Welfare Policy for people up to age 18 particularly for a small club. Getting the parent there solves the issue.

[Geoff S]

Are people under the age of 18 deemed vulnerable? I ask because both my wife and I were living and working beyond the control of parents well before we were 18 (and in those days the majority was 21). My wife was working in Nottingham and living at the YWCA when she was barely 16 (her parents lived in Boston) and I was living in digs in Welwyn Gdn City when I was just 17 and working at Murphy Radio with day release and night school.

I was baby-sitting my half siblings at 11.

I wasn't particularly unique. Perhaps we were more responsible or the opportunities were less in the 1950s

Geoff

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I had a milk round at 11 years old, up at 4.30 am, n 45 Pigeons to look after. Kids today.

[Roger Jones 3]

I'm in my early 70's and have made model planes (and a few model boats, cars and rockets) since I was about nine years old.

Hundreds of model planes over the years but I have purchased only two ARTFs. Both scale models of planes I like but don't like enough to build them myself.

I have noticed that people who fly only ARTFs don't tend to stay in the hobby for as long as 'builders'. With the rise of ARTFs that MAY be why the model plane population seems to be ageing.

[Clarence Ragland]

Posted by Alan Gorham_ on 26/01/2021 17:32:40:

Posted by Erfolg on 26/01/2021 17:18:20:

What seems to being ignored is that young people, however defined, are not being attracted into the hobby.

IMO we need to ensure that as many currently modellers continue to do so.

I see the CAA regs as a serious obstacle to attracting and keeping modelers, the hobby needs to limit the impact as best we can. The hobby needs to resist, as best we can, mission creep by both legislators and the regulator.

 

Well we did just spend the last two pages of this thread discussing the fact that youngsters aren't coming into the hobby, but hey ho...

We need to ensure that ANYBODY who wishes to enter the hobby is able to do so, but if the hobby is not attractive enough to our potential audience then that is difficult thing to change...

WHY are paying a registration fee and taking a quick test a "serious obstacle"? It doesn't seem to be a "serious obstacle" to millions of people in this country getting a passport or taking a driving test.

If I was a kid who was mildly interested in trying this hobby my first questions before any consideration of taking a test or registering would be more like:

Where can I go to do this hobby?

How do I get there?

Can I go on my own (or do I have to get my parents to take me)?

Who will help/teach me?

How much stuff do I need to start this hobby?

How much will it cost?

How much time will I need to spend to get anywhere with the hobby?

If they can answer all those questions and find the time/money/parental commitment to start, then I would suggest that paying £9 online and doing a multi-guess test online would be "childsplay".

 

A youngster came into my hobby shop curious about flying RC airplanes. He said that since his parents only had one vehicle, therefore he had no way to get to our flying field, which was a 7 mile trip. I asked if he could ride his bicycle to the flying field. He said that he had no problem doing so since he road many more miles than that, because he loved riding.

Later on, he came back to the shop with a makeshift trailer attached so he could put the trainer outfit I gave him on it. I told him where the field was which is about 7 miles from where he lived and that I would be there on the weekend to teach him how to fly. That Saturday, he was there on his bicycle and trainer attached to his trailer.

We did this for 3 weekends and he learned how to fly very skillfully on is own within that time. My fellow club members said that he would be there every weekend and sometimes during the week having a grand time. Realizing that the lad couldn't afford to spend the $25 per gallon for fuel...to make a long story short, the lad was never wanting for glow fuel.

My point is, where there's a will, there's a way.

 

Edited By Clarence Ragland on 27/01/2021 11:03:12

[Alan Gorham_]

Posted by Clarence Ragland on 27/01/2021 11:02:40:

My point is, where there's a will, there's a way.

Edited By Clarence Ragland on 27/01/2021 11:03:12

That is also MY point in response to people on this very thread who are bemoaning the lack of young newcomers while also telling any such potential newcomers that the CAA registration and competence test are barriers to getting started.

My whole point was that if you had someone who was prepared to get to a flying site, fund and build their own model and equipment that if you then told them: by the way you have to pay a small registration fee and take a short online test they will just do it, because it is trivial.

[Clarence Ragland]

I forgot. That happened many years ago. That lad is now an airline pilot. He and his family couldn't thank me enough.