How about . . . The Nationals?

[kc]

I knew you would say Buckminster is not big enough  -so why did the BMFA spend our money on a site that is not big enough for the Nationals!  

[leccyflyer]

It was a softly weighted cross to the far post of an open goal  🙂 - presumably a site of the size capable of holding the Nationals - i.e, a site the size of Barkston Heath, was beyond the available buget?

[Ron Gray]

7 minutes ago, leccyflyer said:

was beyond the available buget

Too true, plus very few and far between, I would guess.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

26 minutes ago, kc said:

I knew you would say Buckminster is not big enough  -so why did the BMFA spend our money on a site that is not big enough for the Nationals!  

 BMFA gave the members a vote re the NFC, the vote was a Yes.

[Peter Jenkins]

35 minutes ago, kc said:

I knew you would say Buckminster is not big enough  -so why did the BMFA spend our money on a site that is not big enough for the Nationals!  

If you cannot afford a Rolls-Royce but you can afford a Mini, at least you get transport and four people can ride in the car as opposed to none.  I know that they've had 20 in a Mini but you can't drive anywhere like that!  The one site that was being looked at as a purchase was 108 acres versus over 600 acres at Barkstone.  In the end, nothing else came up for sale that was affordable and then the current owners of Buckminster came up with the lease idea.  I think that all of those who have used Buckminster are jolly glad that the vote went that way.  At least we now have a centre that can, and has been, used for individual disciplines to hold their National Championships.  Darn sight better than trying to find a Flying Club willing to give up its choice site for a weekend - turned out to be none by the way.

[Cuban8]

19 minutes ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

 BMFA gave the members a vote re the NFC, the vote was a Yes.

Oh no! Not down that rabbit hole again..................how many BMFA members actually voted yes? Very few out of a membership that TBH weren't in the least bit interested and didn't express an opinion on such an important matter.

Hence we are, where we are................nice if you live nearby - useless otherwise to the ordinary BMFA member. Sorry, just my view.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Cuban8

[Peter Jenkins]

You are aware, I hope, that members in this context, refers to affiliated model aircraft clubs.  Individual club members do not get a vote other than when a member of the BMFA Executive is being elected and there is more than 1 candidate.  If the Chairman decides, then the number of club members in a Club, verified by the BMFA beforehand and given to the Club representative, can be taken as the vote.  That is also why Fellows get 5 votes on such occasions as the minimum membership for an affiliated Club is 5 members.

 

If your Club didn't bother to attend or send in a proxy vote then that's the way democracy works.  Which is why saying that you didn't know enough to vote or couldn't be bothered plays into the hands of those who are keen to get involved and make progress.  It was ever thus in human history so please spare me the "it isn't fair" cry.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

9 minutes ago, Cuban8 said:

Oh no! Not down that rabbit hole again..................how many BMFA members actually voted yes? Very few out of a membership that TBH weren't in the least bit interested and didn't express an opinion on such an important matter.

Hence we are, where we are................nice if you live nearby - useless otherwise to the ordinary BMFA member. Sorry, just my view.

 

 

 

Apathy abounds, what cure you have for it ? Or should things always stay still because some don't care or are disinterested.

I went and took our No vote, no good whinging to me it ain't fair yonks after the vote.

The BMFA have stood by every word they said on the day of the meeting, I have no issue whatsoever with the NFC.

Weather permitting I'm sure this years events will a great success.

[kc]

The way democracy works is every citizen of age is able to vote.   BMFA members are not allowed to vote!   Not democracy Peter!  The clubs who vote do not pay subs to the BMFA their members do.  ( members of local clubs are forced to pay subs to BMFA by the 100percent rule but are never asked what their vote on BMFA matters would be.  )  Only clubs reps who attend can vote.   Neither of my 2 clubs can afford to send a rep to the AGM - too far means overnight stay and expense - and for the same reason Buckminster is not near enough for day use.

 

The fact remains Buckminster is not (it seems ) big enough for the Nationals and has been paid for by members who mostly cannot use it for everyday flying.   It's a vanity project for the elite paid for by members who cannot use it.  Rather like the subsidised restaurants and wine cellars in the Houses of Parliament - paid for by everyone but available to just the few!

 

[Cuban8]

I'm not troubled one way or another by the existence of the Nat Centre. Time will tell whether it's been a good idea or not. I don't suppose I'll ever visit it, as being something like a three hour drive away, and already having seven days a week access to two first class local flying fields, why would I? Most of my club mates share that view.

However, one would have to be totally dishonest not to agree that what has been achieved in such a short time is remarkable.

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Cuban8

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

38 minutes ago, kc said:

The clubs who vote do not pay subs to the BMFA their members do.  ( members of local clubs are forced to pay subs to BMFA by the 100percent rule but are never asked what their vote on BMFA matters would be.  ) 

If that is the case it is a failing at club level. Each club is entitled to send a delegate to their Area meetings (mostly held on Zoom these days so no real excuse not to ensure they are represented) where they get to represent the views of the club members which can then be carried forward to the BMFA board via the areas council. The system is there but it does of course require the clubs and their members to engage with it.

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

41 minutes ago, kc said:

Neither of my 2 clubs can afford to send a rep to the AGM - too far means overnight stay and expense

 

For the past 4 years there has been an option to attend the AGM via zoom. So no travel, overnight stay or expense.

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

43 minutes ago, kc said:

The fact remains Buckminster is not (it seems ) big enough for the Nationals and has been paid for by members who mostly cannot use it for everyday flying.

It isn't big enough to hold a Nats in the way Barkston did. It does however give options for the individual National Championships to take place.

Buckminster's day to day running costs are pretty much met by those that use it. However, there is a benefit even for those that do not use it for whatever reason.

Having a National centre has meant that there are a quite a few occasions every year where we no longer have to pay what can be quite substantial amounts to hire venues, it has also proved of immense value on the PR side of things which benefits us all.

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

48 minutes ago, kc said:

It's a vanity project for the elite paid for by members who cannot use it.  Rather like the subsidised restaurants and wine cellars in the Houses of Parliament - paid for by everyone but available to just the few!

 

It really isn't

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

What happens day to day is all there if you bother to look, BMFA buckminster page on Facebook will tell you plenty and who's using it, you will need to make the effort though.

[Peter Jenkins]

51 minutes ago, kc said:

The way democracy works is every citizen of age is able to vote.   BMFA members are not allowed to vote!   Not democracy Peter!  The clubs who vote do not pay subs to the BMFA their members do.  ( members of local clubs are forced to pay subs to BMFA by the 100percent rule but are never asked what their vote on BMFA matters would be.  )  Only clubs reps who attend can vote.   Neither of my 2 clubs can afford to send a rep to the AGM - too far means overnight stay and expense - and for the same reason Buckminster is not near enough for day use.

 

The fact remains Buckminster is not (it seems ) big enough for the Nationals and has been paid for by members who mostly cannot use it for everyday flying.   It's a vanity project for the elite paid for by members who cannot use it.  Rather like the subsidised restaurants and wine cellars in the Houses of Parliament - paid for by everyone but available to just the few!

 

Kc

All of those eligible to vote in general elections do not always choose to exercise their rights.  I believe around 70% vote in general elections and somewhere from 40%-50% in local elections.  However, in order to vote you should spend time to understand the issues being debated.  Many choose not to spend the time required to do so for all sorts of reasons.

I believe the BMFA Council, or it may hsve been the executive voted in by members, reviewed the Articles of Association with a view to changing the definition of BMFA Member from Clubs to individuals.  With legal input they decided to stay with the status quo.

In my experience, most Club members have little knowledge of how the BMFA is run and care even less.  When I was an Area Chairman I went out to a small number of Clubs to talk about the BMFA - at the time, I had spent 5 years on Council, 4 years as Area Chairman and 2 years on the Achievement Scheme Review Committee so I felt I was able to present a pretty good picture of the organisation.

Most members had little idea that the day to day operation is down to 3 people: the CEO;  the Development Officer; and the Club Support Officer.  They were supported by around 7-8 support, financial and administrative staff.  All other functions are by volunteers in the same way as Clubs rely on volunteers to run them.  My punchline used to be, if you think the BMFA doesn't do enough for you, look in the mirror.

This would almost invariably be answered with: I don't have the time; I can't be bothered; someone else should do it.

I have found that in life, there are those that do and those that complain.  You choose which one to be.

[jan brilman]

For an outsider it's pretty hard to draw a conclusion from all this.

 

Is there an one sentence long conclusion? 😉

 

 

jan.

[Peter Jenkins]

40 minutes ago, jan brilman said:

For an outsider it's pretty hard to draw a conclusion from all this.

 

Is there an one sentence long conclusion? 😉

 

 

jan.

Yes, mate, it's called get involved if you want things to happen.

[kc]

On 03/02/2023 at 18:59, Peter Jenkins said:

Individual club members do not get a vote other than when a member of the BMFA Executive is being elected

 

On 03/02/2023 at 18:59, Peter Jenkins said:

Fellows get 5 votes on such occasions

 

 

2 hours ago, jan brilman said:

Is there an one sentence long conclusion? 

Yes     Democracy is one man-one vote!

[Peter Jenkins]

Kc - read the Articles of Association.  The "Members" were defined as the Clubs.  It's been like that ever since.

If you want to change it then do something about it rather than just posting on this Forum.  That is democracy. 

We live in a Parliamentary democracy.  We elect MPs to represent us.  That's when we get one citizen one vote apart from the very rare occasions that we have a referendum.  That's democracy, but apparently not to you.  Ask the Swiss what it's like to have to vote several times a year on complex issues.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Topics the Nationals and people will view it for info on said topic.

If you want a debate on BMFA constitution, start a thread for it.