My next assembly ( The sequel ) ..... The Phoenix Domino EP

[leccyflyer]

30 minutes ago, toto said:

***************** HEADLINE NEWS ************* SOMETHING GOES ACCORDING TO PLAN **************

 

The time and the realisation was dawning that i would have to be able to press my Watt meter into service. Now given the issues with soldering on connections to my ESC's and the " were they dry joints or were they not ............. i was not looking forward to this one little bit.

 

However, I had to bite the bullet and give it a go ........

 

 

It took two attempts with one of the wires as I managed to get solder on the outside of the brass connector which wouldn't allow the connector to " click " in. I thought ... you have to get it right this time ....... and now and behold ..... clicked in it did .... the proof would be in the connection though .... so ....

 

 

and ....

 

 

it would appear to have life. My soldering is not that bad after all.

 

I also slid a " tommy " bar through the nose cone ( thanks Ron ) and tightened the prop. 

 

I'm now going to catch up with my mate John Smith for a minute and chill before working out the best way of using this. 

 

hopefully back on a positive footing .... about time as well.

 

toto 

Don't consult your pal John Smith and then run your motor with a prop on.

 

Not being a killjoy Toto, but ale and props on the bench really do not make good bedfellows - unless that bed is in the local A & E department.

[Shaun Walsh]

Figures for 12x8

Battery Load: 10.27 C Voltage: 21.39 V Rated Voltage: 22.20 V Energy: 88.8 Wh Total Capacity: 4000 mAh Used Capacity: 3400 mAh min. Flight Time: 5.0 min Mixed Flight Time: 9.8 min Weight: 684 g   24.1 oz

Motor @ Optimum Efficiency Current: 70.06 A Voltage: 20.50 V Revolutions*: 9042 rpm electric Power: 1436.0 W mech. Power: 1192.1 W Efficiency: 83.0 %

Motor @ Maximum Current: 41.09 A Voltage: 21.20 V Revolutions*: 9755 rpm electric Power: 871.1 W mech. Power: 694.6 W Efficiency: 79.7 % est. Temperature: 79 °C   174 °F   Wattmeter readings Current: 41.09 A Voltage: 21.39 V Power: 878.9 W

Propeller Static Thrust: 3735 g   131.7 oz Revolutions*: 9755 rpm Stall Thrust: - g   - oz avail.Thrust @ 0 km/h: 3735 g avail.Thrust @ 0 mph: 131.7 oz Pitch Speed: 119 km/h   74 mph Tip Speed: 560 km/h   348 mph specific Thrust: 3.74 g/W   0.13 oz/W

Total Drive Drive Weight: 1132 g   39.9 oz Power-Weight: 338 W/kg   153 W/lb Thrust-Weight: 1.38 : 1 Current @ max: 41.09 A P(in) @ max: 912.2 W P(out) @ max: 694.6 W Efficiency @ max: 76.1 % Torque: 0.68 Nm   0.5 lbf.ft Climb Capacity: 3174 m   10413 ft

Airplane All-up Weight: 2700 g   95.2 oz Wing Load: 54.0 g/dm²   17.7 oz/ft² Cubic Wing Load: 7.6   est. Stall Speed: 34 km/h   21 mph est. Speed (level): 99 km/h   61 mph est. Speed (vertical): 36 km/h   22 mph est. rate of climb: 10.7 m/s ( ~85...90° ) 2097 ft/min

 

Figures for 12x6

Battery Load: 8.34 C Voltage: 21.54 V Rated Voltage: 22.20 V Energy: 88.8 Wh Total Capacity: 4000 mAh Used Capacity: 3400 mAh min. Flight Time: 6.1 min Mixed Flight Time: 10.3 min Weight: 684 g   24.1 oz

Motor @ Optimum Efficiency Current: 70.06 A Voltage: 20.50 V Revolutions*: 9042 rpm electric Power: 1436.0 W mech. Power: 1192.1 W Efficiency: 83.0 %

Motor @ Maximum Current: 33.38 A Voltage: 21.39 V Revolutions*: 9945 rpm electric Power: 713.9 W mech. Power: 547.4 W Efficiency: 76.7 % est. Temperature: 76 °C   169 °F   Wattmeter readings Current: 33.38 A Voltage: 21.54 V Power: 719 W

Propeller Static Thrust: 2911 g   102.7 oz Revolutions*: 9945 rpm Stall Thrust: - g   - oz avail.Thrust @ 0 km/h: 2911 g avail.Thrust @ 0 mph: 102.7 oz Pitch Speed: 91 km/h   57 mph Tip Speed: 571 km/h   355 mph specific Thrust: 4.08 g/W   0.14 oz/W

Total Drive Drive Weight: 1132 g   39.9 oz Power-Weight: 274 W/kg   124 W/lb Thrust-Weight: 1.08 : 1 Current @ max: 33.38 A P(in) @ max: 740.9 W P(out) @ max: 547.4 W Efficiency @ max: 73.9 % Torque: 0.53 Nm   0.39 lbf.ft Climb Capacity: 3051 m   10010 ft

Airplane All-up Weight: 2700 g   95.2 oz Wing Load: 54.0 g/dm²   17.7 oz/ft² Cubic Wing Load: 7.6   est. Stall Speed: 34 km/h   21 mph est. Speed (level): 84 km/h   52 mph est. Speed (vertical): 9 km/h   6 mph est. rate of climb: 8.3 m/s ( ~50...55° ) 1638 ft/min

 

Figures for 11x6

Battery Load: 6.52 C Voltage: 21.68 V Rated Voltage: 22.20 V Energy: 88.8 Wh Total Capacity: 4000 mAh Used Capacity: 3400 mAh min. Flight Time: 7.8 min Mixed Flight Time: 11.4 min Weight: 684 g   24.1 oz

Motor @ Optimum Efficiency Current: 70.06 A Voltage: 20.50 V Revolutions*: 9042 rpm electric Power: 1436.0 W mech. Power: 1192.1 W Efficiency: 83.0 %

Motor @ Maximum Current: 26.07 A Voltage: 21.57 V Revolutions*: 10125 rpm electric Power: 562.1 W mech. Power: 402.2 W Efficiency: 71.5 % est. Temperature: 74 °C   165 °F   Wattmeter readings Current: 26.07 A Voltage: 21.68 V Power: 565.2 W

Propeller Static Thrust: 2324 g   82 oz Revolutions*: 10125 rpm Stall Thrust: - g   - oz avail.Thrust @ 0 km/h: 2324 g avail.Thrust @ 0 mph: 82 oz Pitch Speed: 93 km/h   58 mph Tip Speed: 533 km/h   331 mph specific Thrust: 4.14 g/W   0.15 oz/W

Total Drive Drive Weight: 1132 g   39.9 oz Power-Weight: 214 W/kg   97 W/lb Thrust-Weight: 0.86 : 1 Current @ max: 26.07 A P(in) @ max: 578.6 W P(out) @ max: 402.2 W Efficiency @ max: 69.5 % Torque: 0.38 Nm   0.28 lbf.ft Climb Capacity: 3222 m   10571 ft

Airplane All-up Weight: 2700 g   95.2 oz Wing Load: 54.0 g/dm²   17.7 oz/ft² Cubic Wing Load: 7.6   est. Stall Speed: 34 km/h   21 mph est. Speed (level): 79 km/h   49 mph est. Speed (vertical): - km/h   - mph est. rate of climb: 6.9 m/s ( ~40...45° ) 1351 ft/min

 

Figures for 11x7

Battery Load: 6.52 C Voltage: 21.68 V Rated Voltage: 22.20 V Energy: 88.8 Wh Total Capacity: 4000 mAh Used Capacity: 3400 mAh min. Flight Time: 7.8 min Mixed Flight Time: 11.4 min Weight: 684 g   24.1 oz

Motor @ Optimum Efficiency Current: 70.06 A Voltage: 20.50 V Revolutions*: 9042 rpm electric Power: 1436.0 W mech. Power: 1192.1 W Efficiency: 83.0 %

Motor @ Maximum Current: 26.07 A Voltage: 21.57 V Revolutions*: 10125 rpm electric Power: 562.1 W mech. Power: 402.2 W Efficiency: 71.5 % est. Temperature: 74 °C   165 °F   Wattmeter readings Current: 26.07 A Voltage: 21.68 V Power: 565.2 W

Propeller Static Thrust: 2324 g   82 oz Revolutions*: 10125 rpm Stall Thrust: - g   - oz avail.Thrust @ 0 km/h: 2324 g avail.Thrust @ 0 mph: 82 oz Pitch Speed: 93 km/h   58 mph Tip Speed: 533 km/h   331 mph specific Thrust: 4.14 g/W   0.15 oz/W

Total Drive Drive Weight: 1132 g   39.9 oz Power-Weight: 214 W/kg   97 W/lb Thrust-Weight: 0.86 : 1 Current @ max: 26.07 A P(in) @ max: 578.6 W P(out) @ max: 402.2 W Efficiency @ max: 69.5 % Torque: 0.38 Nm   0.28 lbf.ft Climb Capacity: 3222 m   10571 ft

Airplane All-up Weight: 2700 g   95.2 oz Wing Load: 54.0 g/dm²   17.7 oz/ft² Cubic Wing Load: 7.6   est. Stall Speed: 34 km/h   21 mph est. Speed (level): 79 km/h   49 mph est. Speed (vertical): - km/h   - mph est. rate of climb: 6.9 m/s ( ~40...45° ) 1351 ft/min

 

Figures for 11x7 3 blade

Battery Load: 9.17 C Voltage: 21.47 V Rated Voltage: 22.20 V Energy: 88.8 Wh Total Capacity: 4000 mAh Used Capacity: 3400 mAh min. Flight Time: 5.6 min Mixed Flight Time: 10.1 min Weight: 684 g   24.1 oz

Motor @ Optimum Efficiency Current: 70.06 A Voltage: 20.50 V Revolutions*: 9042 rpm electric Power: 1436.0 W mech. Power: 1192.1 W Efficiency: 83.0 %

Motor @ Maximum Current: 36.67 A Voltage: 21.31 V Revolutions*: 9864 rpm electric Power: 781.4 W mech. Power: 611.0 W Efficiency: 78.2 % est. Temperature: 78 °C   172 °F   Wattmeter readings Current: 36.67 A Voltage: 21.47 V Power: 787.3 W

Propeller Static Thrust: 3283 g   115.8 oz Revolutions*: 9864 rpm Stall Thrust: - g   - oz avail.Thrust @ 0 km/h: 3283 g avail.Thrust @ 0 mph: 115.8 oz Pitch Speed: 105 km/h   65 mph Tip Speed: 520 km/h   323 mph specific Thrust: 4.20 g/W   0.15 oz/W

Total Drive Drive Weight: 1132 g   39.9 oz Power-Weight: 302 W/kg   137 W/lb Thrust-Weight: 1.22 : 1 Current @ max: 36.67 A P(in) @ max: 814.1 W P(out) @ max: 611.0 W Efficiency @ max: 75.1 % Torque: 0.59 Nm   0.44 lbf.ft Climb Capacity: 3170 m   10400 ft

Airplane All-up Weight: 2700 g   95.2 oz Wing Load: 54.0 g/dm²   17.7 oz/ft² Cubic Wing Load: 7.6   est. Stall Speed: 34 km/h   21 mph est. Speed (level): 91 km/h   57 mph est. Speed (vertical): 22 km/h   14 mph est. rate of climb: 9.5 m/s ( ~60...65° ) 1870 ft/min

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[toto]

No worries Leccyflyer,

 

I only had one and then came in doors to have a look through Watt Meter info on the internet. Like Lipo's I tend to give props the greatest of respect.

 

I wont be back in the shed tonight. I need to try and get my head around the figures that the Watt Meter is chucking out. This side of things was always going to take a bit of time so I'll just Idle through this bit at my own ( normally slow ) pace. No rushing this.

 

I'll be back in the shed tomorrow to do a rerun with the connection of the watt meter and hopefully be better able to understand what its telling me. To be honest .... I'm just delighted to have achieved the connections to get it working so far .... it's a very small step forward.

 

Cheers

 

Toto

[toto]

Shaun,

 

Thanks for the above, I take it I will be comparing the output readings from the Watt Meter with those above when I hit this again tomorrow night. 

 

I can't wait 

[Shaun Walsh]

Correction

Figures for 11x7  2 blade should be

Battery Load: 7.26 C Voltage: 21.62 V Rated Voltage: 22.20 V Energy: 88.8 Wh Total Capacity: 4000 mAh Used Capacity: 3400 mAh min. Flight Time: 7.0 min Mixed Flight Time: 11.2 min Weight: 684 g   24.1 oz

Motor @ Optimum Efficiency Current: 70.06 A Voltage: 20.50 V Revolutions*: 9042 rpm electric Power: 1436.0 W mech. Power: 1192.1 W Efficiency: 83.0 %

Motor @ Maximum Current: 29.05 A Voltage: 21.49 V Revolutions*: 10052 rpm electric Power: 624.5 W mech. Power: 462.2 W Efficiency: 74.0 % est. Temperature: 75 °C   167 °F   Wattmeter readings Current: 29.05 A Voltage: 21.62 V Power: 628.1 W

Propeller Static Thrust: 2673 g   94.3 oz Revolutions*: 10052 rpm Stall Thrust: - g   - oz avail.Thrust @ 0 km/h: 2673 g avail.Thrust @ 0 mph: 94.3 oz Pitch Speed: 107 km/h   66 mph Tip Speed: 529 km/h   329 mph specific Thrust: 4.28 g/W   0.15 oz/W

Total Drive Drive Weight: 1132 g   39.9 oz Power-Weight: 239 W/kg   109 W/lb Thrust-Weight: 0.99 : 1 Current @ max: 29.05 A P(in) @ max: 645.0 W P(out) @ max: 462.2 W Efficiency @ max: 71.7 % Torque: 0.44 Nm   0.32 lbf.ft Climb Capacity: 3375 m   11073 ft

Airplane All-up Weight: 2700 g   95.2 oz Wing Load: 54.0 g/dm²   17.7 oz/ft² Cubic Wing Load: 7.6   est. Stall Speed: 34 km/h   21 mph est. Speed (level): 86 km/h   53 mph est. Speed (vertical): - km/h   - mph est. rate of climb: 8 m/s ( ~45...50° ) 1577 ft/min

[Shaun Walsh]

2 minutes ago, toto said:

Shaun,

 

Thanks for the above, I take it I will be comparing the output readings from the Watt Meter with those above when I hit this again tomorrow night. 

 

I can't wait 

I usually find that the eCalc figures are pretty close to those measured with my wattmeter.

Remember that static current figures will be higher than those measured when the model is flying.

[Shaun Walsh]

5 minutes ago, toto said:

Shaun,

 

Thanks for the above, I take it I will be comparing the output readings from the Watt Meter with those above when I hit this again tomorrow night. 

 

I can't wait 

I also measure thrust using a set of luggage scales attached to the tail of the model.

something like this

[toto]

Hi Shaun,

 

I've just finished watching a utube video stating the same thing with regards to the differences between static and flying model outputs.

 

Quite a lot to grapple with ...

 

Cheers

 

Toto

[toto]

That's funny,

 

I'll be using the same in order to measure the gross laiden weight ( including battery ) of the model.

 

Toto

[Learner]

14 minutes ago, Shaun Walsh said:

I usually find that the eCalc figures are pretty close to those measured with my wattmeter.

Remember that static current figures will be higher than those measured when the model is flying.

What prop manufacturer does e calc relate too as the efficiency differs between makes?

[Shaun Walsh]

1 minute ago, Learner said:

What prop manufacturer does e calc relate too as the efficiency differs between makes?

I've used APC-E for the 2 blade props and Master Airscrew for the 3 blade. Other options are available.

[toto]

Dubro 3.5 inch wheels arrived today.

 

I'll get them fitted tonight. It might just encourage me back into the shed.  been a bit lacklustre lately.

 

Cheers

 

Toto

[Nigel R]

28 minutes ago, toto said:

been a bit lacklustre lately.

 

It's taken me over a year to not quite finish one model, I don't think you're suffering a lack of pace.

[toto]

Well ..... the wheels were changed over .... 

 

 

for ....

 

 

and .......

 

 

for .....

 

 

What a job I had getting the originals off.  I had used thread lock on the screws .... and they would not slacken under any condition. luckily the rear wheels had a rear locking nut ( Nylock ) that I was able to remove to get the axle out and replace the wheels ...... but no such luxury with the front nose wheel.

 

It was stuck fast to the point where I knackered the screw head trying to slacken it off ........ this called for the heavy mob .......

 

 

so .... some heat applied to the collett and ..... off it came. 

 

Wheels now replaced. 

 

that's me for the moment.

 

toto 

[aidan mcatamney]

10 minutes ago, toto said:

Well ..... the wheels were changed over .... 

 

 

for ....

 

 

and .......

 

 

for .....

 

 

What a job I had getting the originals off.  I had used thread lock on the screws .... and they would not slacken under any condition. luckily the rear wheels had a rear locking nut ( Nylock ) that I was able to remove to get the axle out and replace the wheels ...... but no such luxury with the front nose wheel.

 

It was stuck fast to the point where I knackered the screw head trying to slacken it off ........ this called for the heavy mob .......

 

 

so .... some heat applied to the collett and ..... off it came. 

 

Wheels now replaced. 

 

that's me for the moment.

 

toto 

Good job Toto.  Those new wheels will make a difference.   

[Don Fry]

Hi Toto. I am the bearer of bad new. No but. There are two sorts of flyers. Those who have had a wheel fall off, due to a collet. And those who will.

Now, use locktite. Secondly your slow forgiving airframe will give you an interesting landing if a wheel falls off, but will survive. Suggest, relax, get it down lightly, don’t tense up for perfection, or even where you wanted it, or you will fail. But it’s still not the end of the earth, it’s a tough trainer. 
Next time you attach a wheel, a brass tube, soldered over the steel axle, can be drilled out, and a split pin inserted and it’s there forever. 
Steep learning curve.

[toto]

Hi Don,

 

I like that that Idea. Will the brass solder to the steel wheel ?

 

if so .... which kind of solder do you advise ..... just a heinz variety 60 / 40.

 

Toto

[toto]

OK ..... for now ..... two tasks that I still need to do prior to any pre maiden flight check by my mentor / club buddies.

 

1.    determine the draw with the Watt meter with the model set up as it is. 

 

I had already been familiarising myself with this but still have the final task to undertake properly. I've sort of been easing myself back into this as the past couple of days my brain has been pickled. So this will be coming up. 

 

2.    set up the electrics again with Battery, receiver, all servo's etc etc and check all the servo settings / throws etc. 

 

Again, I'd like to ease my frazzled brain back into this as when I present this for a pre - maiden check over, I'd like my buddies to see that my initial set up has been at least attempted and not just handed over for someone else to do it. Also ..... I need to get used to doing this on every model I bring into service.

 

I think the above ( notwithstanding generally assembling the airframe ) is the bread and butter of preparing the model for flight.

 

However, for tonight .... thats it ..... one small step at a time for now ..... the rush is off. 

 

toto

[Don Fry]

Clean the inside of the tube. Clean the axle. Drill the tube, but long from final position. Easier to file down to right length, than just get it right. 60 / 40 is good, and flux. Don’t forget, a washer or so each side to act as thrust races.

But not the current build, locktite, and hope. That’s what I would do, and it won’t break that airframe. Different story, long hours scale build. 

[toto]

Thanks Don,

 

As you say, leave the current build as is. The locktite is far better / stronger than I imagined. It has welded the collar to the axle. As I mentioned, it needed heat to get it off. .... well impressed but makes you think a little before using. Especially if you can ever foresee a reason to get the part back off.

 

Build with it by all means but make sure all the test fits etc are done before applying .... 

 

Cheers

 

Toto

[John Stainforth]

I don't use loctite for the reason you encountered.

 

One thing I found, when I was learning landings and touch-and-goes on a hard strip, was that the rear wheels would get splayed out by heavy landings and then the plane would sit on the ground with the nose slightly up - which makes for bouncy landings. Better to bend the rear legs back into their correct positions or shorten the nose leg so that the plane always sits horizontal or slightly nose down. The other thing I found, with a steerable nose wheel coupled to the rudder, was to have only a very small movement on the nosewheel compared with the rudder.

Edited August 9, 2023 by John Stainforth
omission

[toto]

Thanks for the tips there John. 

 

These are things that you either pick up as you go ...... or learn through the school of hard knocks.

 

Toto

[GrumpyGnome]

@toto Your head must he spinning by now, with all the conflicting advice!  You'll soon learn what to discard (I may already fall into this category!), what to try, and what suits you best.

 

Personally, I've never had an issue with loctite (the blue stuff) if using the correct allen key/tool to undo it.

 

You'll find what you like regarding amount of movement on rudder and nosewheel.  For starters, use what's recommended in the manual, then adjust if necessary. Inability to control the model due to too much or too little steering is a pain....

 

@John StainforthI've only ever had one plane with a tricycle undercarriage, and am curious as to why splayed rear legs would cause/exacerbate bouncy landings......

[Learner]

Advice(good or bad) is in abundance now with forums and youtube etc, it was easier when you had to just deal with the 50 club experts!! 😂

[toto]

It can be over powering but I'd rather have that than no help at all. I think everyone means well. 

 

I know a lot more now than I did a few months ago. I just wish my flying had come on so well. 

 

Cheers

 

Toto