BMFA A-certificate 1kg minimum model weight

[David E]

Hi, it was pointed out to me that the A-certificate info from the BMFA states a 1kg minimum weight for models. My brother has a relatively small electric trainer, that falls well under this. Are BMFA examiners really likely to refuse to do the test with such an aircraft?

This minimum weight limit seems outdated and too focussed on ICE power to me.

Ok, so the wind will need to be lower to carry out the test, but it seems unfair that beginners without deep enough pockets for larger, more powerful planes should be excluded from such a baseline competency test.

Any thoughts?

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Most clubs base their level of competence to fly any model up to 7 kg without supervision on the possession of an A certificate and the minimum weight limit was brought in very recently to address concerns that people were passing the test without neccessarily having any experience on models more representative of average "club" models. So I doubt that the BMFA would consider the weight limit outdated!

 

I believe that the Silent Flight (Electric) A test can be taken with a lightweight model and would be more appropriate to this type of model. I would like to think that a club would then allow the holder to fly their small model unsupervised and then take a standard A test when they are ready to move up.

Edited By Martin Harris on 09/07/2011 23:09:12

[Alan Cantwell]

this proposal is not as old as you think, its inception is 2010, and it was from my area of the BMFA, heres the proposal, published on my own clubs website,

 

click here

 

as for reasons, i can only suggest it is so tests can not be taken with lightweight models, that bear no resemblance to higher loaded models, bear in mind, they could then go and fly anything up to 7kg, on their own, with all the risks that impares

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 10/07/2011 00:20:08

[Tim Mackey]

Yup, I think they will refuse to let you use it actually. 2.2lbs is not big, and Im actually surprised that a "proper electric trainer" doesn't hit this mark.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

The examiners in my club would certainly uphold the rule - and I think rightly. In a climate like ours, especially with the winds we have been getting lately, I wouldn't recommend a learner to use anything smaller than 40 size trainer - weight approx 2Kg.

 

Looking at the price of small foamies I don't think deep pockets comes into it. I reckon that with a bit of careful shopping around I could put a typical trainer in the air for the price of many of these small models - even less in some cases!

 

BEB

[Alan Cantwell]

oops sorry guys, i went and forgot the link rules,

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

We wont shoot you this time Alan - but you'd better watch out!

 

I'll change it for you - then these two posts will be a complete mystery to all readers from now on!

 

BEB

 

PS I'll delete them tomorrow!

[John Privett]

Martin, I don't think the Silent Flight(Electric) test would necessarily be appropriate in this case.

 

The Silent Flight tests are really for gliders - the three different SF tests being for gliders flown off a slope, gliders flown off a towline and gliders that happen to have an electric motor to haul them up. One of our members took the SF(E) test a while ago and the test was mostly concerned with the gliding parts of the flight.

 

The guidance notes for the SF(E) test in fact state;

 

The test can be performed with virtually any Electric Powered Glider model, but not an Electric Powered Sports model as the Powered Flight 'A' Certificate would be more appropriate to that type of model.

Edited By John Privett on 10/07/2011 00:35:01

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Reading the guidance notes I think you're probably right but I suspect this was formulated before the 1 kg minimum limit for the Power A.

 

It might be arguable that a model that is not regarded as an Electric Powered Sports model by the scheme as it's not eligible for the Power A could then be regarded as suitable for the test if it can be flown through the manouevres in an appropriate manner.

 

Perhaps something to be raised with the scheme co-ordinator?

Edited By Martin Harris on 10/07/2011 01:09:09

[John Privett]

Martin, yes - the SF(E) test certainly predates the 1kg. limit on the Fixed-Wing test.

 

I think some consideration has been given in the past to a possible A test for indoor models. Though I think the model mentioned by the OP would still fall into the gap between "indoor" and the current F/W test...

[David Gilder]

Maybe a FW (LW) category is required (Fixed Wing Light Weight).

 

this should be used to cover models that are under 1Kg but dont fall into the EF catagory!

 

It could be run the same as the standard FW (A) test schedule as this would all still be possible!

 

Just a thought!

 

Dave

[Alan Cantwell]

yet if you borrow a club trainer, and pass your A, you can then get the best of both worlds, there has been talk of an indoor A, but why over egg the pudding? a lot of examiners struggle to get enthusiasm from members to take an A cert, i would like to see certs mandatory, then we might get members to get more purpose into their flying, and see better standards at flying fields,

[Ultymate]

Sorry but the original post seems to say that you would like your friend to take his "A" test on a little foamy and then become qualified to fly a 6.99 Kilo 30/40 cc petrol model. I think there has to be a line in the sand somewhere.

[Alan Cantwell]

thats the exact reason it was brought in, too many where trying to take tests with chippy cartons with small motors on,

[David E]

Interesting!

So why is flying a model over 1kg any harder than flying a model under 1kg? I'd have said it was easier. If someone is capable of flying a small, light trainer, why would those skills not scale up?

Wouldn't it be better to use the B-certificate as a requirement for more advanced flying rather than making nodels flying inaccessible to those in a very tight budget?

Dave, I agree. With this change the A-certificate has become too narrowly defined for some fliers and some clubs.
Perhaps there needs to be a new certificate for electric flight only. Another possibility would be a certificate for those that only want to fly hand launch electric models that aren't glider. At my club the field we use most (there is a 2nd) is relatively small and permits electric flight only. Most of us don't fly ICE powered models. Imho this new rule really shuts out some newcomers.

When it comes to discussion about cost of larger models, please remember budgets are relative. To many who are dipping their toes in the water, and don't want to commit lots of cash to a hobby that may not work out for then, the price of a 1kg trainer is definitely prohibitive.

[Steve W-O]

Posted by David E on 10/07/2011 11:13:35:
Interesting!

So why is flying a model over 1kg any harder than flying a model under 1kg? I'd have said it was easier. If someone is capable of flying a small, light trainer, why would those skills not scale up?

Wouldn't it be better to use the B-certificate as a requirement for more advanced flying rather than making nodels flying inaccessible to those in a very tight budget?

Dave, I agree. With this change the A-certificate has become too narrowly defined for some fliers and some clubs.
Perhaps there needs to be a new certificate for electric flight only. Another possibility would be a certificate for those that only want to fly hand launch electric models that aren't glider. At my club the field we use most (there is a 2nd) is relatively small and permits electric flight only. Most of us don't fly ICE powered models. Imho this new rule really shuts out some newcomers.

When it comes to discussion about cost of larger models, please remember budgets are relative. To many who are dipping their toes in the water, and don't want to commit lots of cash to a hobby that may not work out for then, the price of a 1kg trainer is definitely prohibitive.

 

 

 

 

I have to disagree, although I hate legislation and needless rules.

 

A 1kg trainer can be (as already said) bought for a very reasonable price, definitely not prohibitive (though you did not state what a prohibitive cost is), admittedly more than a 30" 500g toy foamie.

 

I should hope that anyone taking their A test would have got a bit further than dipping their toes in the water, so I don't see how it could put anyone off. Like any hobby, you have to make some commitments, and I don't see many getting to their A test without enough commitment to buy a suitable model.

 

Of course, had they have asked first, or joined a club, or done minimal research on the net, they would have made the correct purchase in the first place, but you can hardly blame the BMFA for them not doing so.

 

The other point is that passing the A test is only really saying you can start your learning without a tutor, very few wise flyers will pass their A then go on to much more ambitious planes without much more practice.

 

I'm not a great supporter of the BMFA, or rules and regulations, but I honestly think the present system is good, and beneficial to everyone, electric and IC

[Romeo Whisky]

I raised this issue not long ago in an email to Manny Williamson of the BMFA.

 

My view was that the safety scheme seemed to exclude fliers of small electrics, and by implication BMFA seemed to be therefore saying that there are no safety issues with flying such models, which clearly is nonsense. I mentioned also that I know some clubs and club examiners who run their "A" tests on the assumption that someone who passes an "A" on a small electric would tomorrow turn up with a beefy 7Kg i/c model - which is also ludicrous. I have only ever flown electrics and have no intention of or interest in ever flying i/c, and there many others like me.

 

BEB's point about the wind above is an interesting one, and points to the fact that many larger models are actually EASIER to fly than a small electric. I'm afraid my view is that most of the "old guard" just look disparagingly at small electric models and want to keep them out of club flying.

 

As you might expect, I got a polite reply reiterating the "party line".

[Alan Cantwell]

Sorry, but the position is, pass your test on even a 1kilo model, and you can go right to the other end of the spectrum, a 7kilo model, with all the associated heavy weight plethoria that goes with it with no experiance of how such a model behaves,

If you pass your test with a decent weight model, then you can go down in size safely, bigger models DO take more concentration to fly, and there is the added responsibility of flying them safely, try to translate the flying quarks of a shock flyer/foamy type to a 7kilo model, and the meaning of the term SHOCK will become apparant,

Its trying to find a fine line that benefits all, any qualification has to start somewhere, with the A, its deemed by an OVERWELMING area vote, that that somewhere has to be over 1kilo, many many clever guys have voted on this 1Kilo weight, its deemed neccasary, why? because it was felt, from reports, that folk where doing just what has been mentioned, passing with too light a model, then going up in weight,

[Simon Chaddock]

 

With the miniaturisation of RC gear in general along with sophisticated foam structures there is a growing category of quite serious planes that fall below the 1kg limit.

 

Should a category like the PPL(M) for microlights be considered?

[Ultymate]

If you are going to introduce a "below 1Kilo" A test then I would say it should be just that certainly not entitle the holder to fly heavyweight (up to 7K) models whatever the power source be it electric glow or small petrol. In other words not an "easy in".

[Romeo Whisky]

No problem with that Ulty - better than being totally ignored by and excluded from the Safety Certficate system - THAT is my main issue with the present system. Loads of people don't want to fly bigger stuff, yet safety is still an issue for all model flyers, whatever the model size.

 

If they decide they want to fly big stuff later, then of course an additional test would be quite reasonable.

[Alan Cantwell]

your not ignored, take the test with a club model, then you can do what you like up to 7 kilo, its cant be that hard to come by a model that weighs over 1 kilo, if you have any problems with this rulling, then the only recoarse is to bring it up at club meetings, and send it to your area meetings, can you be bothered doing this? this is the way this was brought in,

[Romeo Whisky]

Posted by Alan 4: ... your not ignored, take the test with a club model, then you can do what you like up to 7 kilo, its cant be that hard to come by a model that weighs over 1 kilo.

If you read the first post on this thread again Alan, surely the point is why should this guy have to shell out more money to buy a model bigger than the one he currently owns and enjoys flying just to get a certificate that says he can fly his small model safely? Maybe he doesn't want to join a club - the BMFA doesn't require that he does. Personally I don't have a problem as I fly bigger than 1Kg (as well as smaller models), but I still think it is wrong that there is now no BMFA safety certification available for those who want to fly just small models. They are excluded from the scheme.

 

My PPL (in my youth) didn't allow me to fly fast jets or multi-engine, but it was still a valid qualification for the kind of flying I did do, and I didn't need to get a CPL to fly a Chipmunk.

 

[Steve W-O]

Posted by Romeo Whisky on 10/07/2011 18:07:20:

If you read the first post on this thread again Alan, surely the point is why should this guy have to shell out more money to buy a model bigger than the one he currently owns and enjoys flying just to get a certificate that says he can fly his small model safely

 

 

 

It's a fair question, but where d you draw the line?

 

You can easily get a 2kg electric model for well under £70 if you are patient, how do you prevent someone flying one of these the day after passing an A test on a 400g park flyer?

The ease and economy of getting one makes it a likely possibility.

 

How do you test someone on say a small cub in anything but a very mild breeze? I didn't realise how windy the UK was until I started flying again. It is hard enough in some places to find and examiner and weather now.

 

How many people flying small planes genuinely intend to stay with them?

 

I think some of the comments in this thread are aimed more generally than at the OP, as this has come up lots of times in the past when people ask what plane to buy.

 

It is a simple fact you can't please everyone all the time, and I honestly think that someone who wants to fly a small light plane all his life (talking of models, different story on full size) is going to be part of an extremely small group, and sometimes, as in other areas of life, it is not practical to cater for everyone's individual needs, sometimes the individual has to do things the way of the majority, even if inconvenient for a while.

 

 

[Alan Cantwell]

he does not HAVE to shell out, use the club trainer, believe me, its difficult enough trying to get poeople through any test, without it becoming even harder, your putting the load on examiners shoulders, more paperwork, more time out of our unpaid leisure time, if you want an under 1kilo cert, then take it to area, get it voted on, get it to council,