80 mph speed limit??

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

OK, mod's hat off - I can join in now.

 

I think Pete makes a statement that is very true, "there are always going to be accidents" - and they may not be your fault. But you're still going to be involved. Now an accident at 80+mph produces collision with a lot more violence than one at 70 - remember 30% more energy at 80 compared to 70. Maybe we should think about that? Given the inevitability of at least some accidents lets get the maximum benefit from our "safety cages" and abs etc by keeping the speed reasonable. Just a thought.

 

BEB

[Wiltshire Flyer]

Posted by Alan 4 on 11/10/2011 22:31:25:

It does seem strange, i drive what my father would class as a racing car, it has abs brakes, track control system, 6 speed gearbox, a turbo, more brake horse than any other car he has owned, a safety cell, that means an impact wont put the engine in my lap,, and most of all, impact air bags, its safety on 4 wheels, and, it has to have, every year, a test to make sure this all works, yet here i am, governed on motorway speeds, at the same he had when he drove his FORD ANGLIA!!!!!! i say again, and i do a LOT of motorway driving, its the folk who drive UNDER the limit that cause the brakes to come on, not the 80 mph jockeys, do me a favour, if you see a maroon mondeo coming up in your rear view mirror, just curse, and GET THE HECK OUT THE WAY!! some of us have places to go,

We are polar opposites on that one Alan.

[Steve W-O]

I have always thought that speed alone is not the major danger.

 

I was persuaded to think again on our way to the airport in Cagayan de Oro coming home after spending the whole summer holidays there, and only seeing the results of one accident (not saying there was only one, but here I see 2-3 a week, just going to work and back)

 

While waiting in traffic, I looked down at the dash (very large Nissan 4X4 ) and saw that the average speed over the last 640 km was 26.4 km/h (m-mouse units as that is what the display was)

 

That was including a couple of longer trips out of town where we probably got to 100km/h.

 

The main aim there is to avoid an accident, even though rules are few, and even fewer are followed.

 

Self appointed traffic cops, holding up a chain of cars, and speed freaks (both equally dangerous) are few and far between. The roads are full of all kinds of vehicles, many of which can only claim that all the wheels are going the same way as being roadworthy, travelling at very different speeds, on any part of the road there is space, in any direction that is convenient, yet there are comparatively few accidents.

 

Driver attitude is the key, and maybe the low speeds.

 

Driver agro, whether it is "you will stay behind me, I am driving at the limit" or "get out of my way, I want to get home 10 seconds earlier" are recipes for an accident, and the culprits only get away from having an accident by the grace of other drivers.

As for MOT meaning a car is safe and roadworthy, what a joke, it is a very lax and superficial test, all it means is that there is a better chance the car is not totally unroadworthy.

 

Edit: Meant to say I'm not against the MOT test, I think it serves a valuable purpose, just that it is not stringent enough to say the car is roadworthy

 

Leave the speed limit as it is, until attitudes change to encourage and ensure safe driving

Edited By Steve W-O on 14/10/2011 17:21:09

[Lazygit]

Talking at the flying field about these speed limit changes for motorways, there seems to be a correlation between those who ignore the present limit and those who think the safety on the field is for others and not them. Eg not tethering aircraft before starting engine, landing towards the pits, noisy aircraft, low passes close to the plots box/flightline, When things go wrong, (and they have done) it doesn't spoil only their day, others are affected too.

Edited By Lazygit on 12/10/2011 06:54:59

[Bob Cotsford]

Posted by Terence Lynock on 11/10/2011 23:53:45:

Alan, if I knew for certain it was you then I would adhere to the letter of the law and if you found the worst mobile road block in creation then that would be me, its the individual that thinks he has gods grace to treat everyone else like trash that causes the greatest part of the problems on todays roads, I cant really believe that you made that statement 'GET THE HECK OUT OF THE WAY!'.

Why should we?, so you can continue to break the law and put others safety at risk? NO, I would be failing in my duty as a human being and fellow traveller if I did that.

pot - kettle - black

The drivers who cause problems in my opinion are those who believe they have a god given right to drive at whatever speed in whichever lane they feel like at any given moment, and those who think it is their duty to stop anyone from travelling faster than themselves. No difference if they're travelling at 60 or 90.

 

Don't you realise you are just compounding any potential for an accident? Do you really think that just because you decide to act as judge and executioner faster drivers will rethink their strategy and realise the error of their ways?

 

Do you also make your car as wide as possible in stationary traffic to stop m/cycles from filtering?

I know you have more sense Terry.

 

There are many stretches of open road with good visibilty and no junctions where the current limits are too low - any competent and fit driver can safely travel faster than the current limit. There are other stretches of road where the limts are too high because of poor visibility. You get the feeling no-one has teh gumption to look at individual circumstances.

 

 

My vote - variable speed limits with a higher maximum where appropriate, but of course it would never work as some jobsworth will just decide it's his job to slow traffic as much as possible regardless of conditions - witness the M40/M42 around Brum.

Edited By Bob Cotsford on 12/10/2011 07:27:44

[Phil 9]

You are discussing motorway speed limits? Thank goodness for that.

For a second there I thought the BMFA had brought out a new ruling

[Tony Richardson]

You guys have it good, over here the speed limit on most Hwy's is 90/100 kmh thats only 55-60 mph try driving that speed when you are on the trans Canada hwy, it is dead straight for days not miles, and there's the rub you can get sleepy because it is very hypnotic driving in a straight line for a long time with nothing else to do but steer.

 

On a recent trip back to the UK I was pleasantly surprised to find I could drive from Reading to the Lake District in a few hours your roads have improved a great deal, that said I did find the lanes a little narrow and when you get passed by a road train from the continent it is a little disconcerting have to side with Neil it is not speed but in-attention and stupidity that cause most accidents, if you go with the flow you are mostly safe, just my tanners worth.

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 12/10/2011 09:36:25

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Phil B on 12/10/2011 07:38:48:

You are discussing motorway speed limits? Thank goodness for that.

For a second there I thought the BMFA had brought out a new ruling

 

LOL Nice one!

 

BEB

[Josip Vrandecic -Mes]

Hi BEB,after all ......buy a (the) horse..........

Cheers

Jo (call me farrari)

[Myron Beaumont]

Surely the most relevance to this subject is its association with the qualities of human abilities to deal with flying models as well ,

ie

Concentration ,awareness of possible dangers ,reflex response speed ,ability to control the machine when things go pear shaped and most of all common sense .

Speed in itself is not the only factor . I've gone from high speed cars (E type/Austin Healey lots of MGs etc. Now I drive a camper van in the wilds of N Yorks & take my time to be alert for wild animals of the four legged kind.Only the other day I braked quickly from just under 30 mph for two deer loose on the road .A chap all but hit me from the rear .I stopped and gave him a mouthful.

Maybe an intelligence test and a few hours on a skid pan plus driving a crashable simulator might awaken the nonchalant .Funny how engineering types like us can come up with intelligent comments such as above isn't it ?.Cos we care and think -that's why !

Back to being Grumpy (temporarily)

Myron

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

One thing that really does annoy me is the number of people of the "I will travel at the speed limit and you shall not pass me" ilk that are ignorant of speed limits in this country. How often have you found yourself travelling at 56 - 57 mph (due to the designed in speedo error they assume they are spot on 60 no doubt) in the outside lane of a dual carriageway waiting for the (often cloth capped) driver in front to pull over into the empty left hand lane.

I once travelled a good 5 miles behind a lady doing just this on a virtually empty 2 lane dual carriageway after having seen her odd positioning from a long way behind. During this time we were consistantly being undertaken by the few other cars on the road but as I wasn't in a particular hurry (although I would have been travelling faster given a free choice) and curious to observe her behaviour, I first of all waited patiently, then gave a quick headlight flash to alert her of my presence, then increased the frequency after a long enough period to avoid reasonable accusations of impatient behaviour and all the time she steadfastly maintained her position almost 15 mph below the speed limit on a clear road.

 

Of course, those "speeding and reckless" drivers who undertook to get past this self appointed guardian of the motoring nation's morals would have been held to be at fault had she suddenly swerved back into the inside lane on a whim or to avoid running over a stray Kit-Kat wrapper but although I can't condone undertaking it would be entirely understandable. Even if she'd been travelling at the legal maximum the potential for an accident was still there and the Highway Code clearly instructs drivers to use the inside lane except for overtaking slower traffic.

 

I assume we are all aware that the speed limit on a dual carriageway (that's any road with a physical separation between opposing directions of traffic BTW) is 70 mph unless indicated otherwise?

Edited By Martin Harris on 12/10/2011 11:56:21

[Codename-John]

Posted by Eric Bray on 12/10/2011 11:36:56:

I wasn't going to get involved - but -

Alan 4, to quote a tennis character - You cannot be serious!

Cars may be made safer, with better brakes, airbags, scaffolding frames, etc, but the nut behind the wheel is still the same!

So you have a F1 Ferrari or whatever, it doesn't stop a cyclist (pedal or motor) falling off because he/she hit a pot-hole, a missing grid, an oil-spill, wet leaves, etc, in front of you. Can you stop in time from 30 mph? Probably. Can you stop from 100 mph? Not a cat's chance, and neither has the poor soul in front of you!

 

If you HAVE to be somewhere at a given time, Start out earlier to leave time to get there at a sensible speed.

 

with regards the above statement and some others Im wondering how many of you are actually thinking of whats actually happening here, we are supposed to be discussing 10 mph more on a motorway,

nobody in their right mind (i would presume) condones speeding in built up areas where there are kids, pedestrians, cyclists, farmer giles on his tractor etc
but when there is an open flow of traffic on three lanes of an uncongested motorway it is very unrealistic to keep us from travelling that little bit faster than we have for the last however many years with all the technological development of vehicles, if you want to drive at under the speed limit, that is what the inside lane is for, the middle lane is for lorries etc to overtake you, then move back over and the outer lane is for when people overtake said lorries etc then moves back over themselves, ive just been sat behind an idiot on a dual carridgeway doing 55 mph in the outside lane with nothing in the way on the inside lane, blatently not paying attention, and from whom i recieved a load of abuse when i had the audacity to beep at her to move over so i could pass and not run the risk of prosecution from undertaking, she is free to carry out this obstructive and in my view dangerous behaviour, yet if i had passed her i could have run the risk of fines, points etc where is the fairness in that ?

[Myron Beaumont]

Weren't motorways built for speed ?

Sorry about deviating from motorway speed limits in my contribution .

I fully agree with Neil on his comments.Says it all doesn't it.

edit :   And Eric

Edited By Myron Beaumont on 12/10/2011 12:55:27

[Roger 2]

Hi all

 

I did say in one of my earlier posts;

 

I cannot understand the need for greater speed, the only conclusion I can make is the : ..."no one is telling me what to do scenario.

I still think this is true, but we now seem to be living in a more aggressive era .

 

 

People are now in my way......you are driving too slow..... look at that dodderer, he could be doing another 15mph faster....she/he shouldn't be on the road.....etc..etc...etc.

 

 

What happened to common courtesy? Any body remember being tought to drive defensibly? Being told to set of early incase of problems?

I agree there are some on the road that shouldn't be, a lot due to legal reasons, some too old, some with instabilities. That is life.

I still feel that the go-faster people probably havent had to pick any "sticky bits" up .

 

Before you all say another Anglia driver, my car a Merc is 3l v6.

 

Cheers

 

Roger

.

 

[Myron Beaumont]

Roger

I must say that the "go-faster type society " hasn't worked & won't work ever will it ?

Maybe 'tis mi age but I've never had a single point on my licence nor a parking ticket after 52 years on motor bikes & in cars (no flat cap either !)

I was driving around fields when I was 11 years old mind you in a clapped out car that I learned how to keep running.

Thinks?!

What about the new high speed proposed rail link between the South & the Midlands.

It'll only cost countless millions / billions to accelerate the growth in the economy saving about 20 minutes on the journey!. Maybe for bankers etc to be first on the scene to make bigger bonuses . Sorry -I didn't start out to be political - BUT as has been mentioned about the "Green" thinkers and how some benefit financially from oil revenues with a higher speed limit , it's difficult to leave politics out of the issue .What manipulated statistics do we believe and more to the point ,which ones are relevant ?

I'll get mi coat .

Getting even grumpier (My apologies)

What a good debate Eh!

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Roger 2 on 12/10/2011 12:56:43:

 

People are now in my way......you are driving too slow..... look at that dodderer, he could be doing another 15mph faster....she/he shouldn't be on the road.....etc..etc...etc.

 

 

What happened to common courtesy?

 

 

Ignoring the implied accusations to anyone who finds themselves frustrated by that sort of driving, isn't the "dodderer" (I'm assuming they're doing this speed in an outer lane) at least equally guilty of being discourteous to the driver behind, who may be trying to get to an urgent appointment (not necessarily business, could be to take someone to hospital, pick up a child, family emergency, who knows?) and arguably guilty of driving without due care and attention if the inner lane is available?

 

I fully accept that we should ALL adopt a defensive, non-combative and "live and let live" style to our driving but in the real world, some behaviours trigger unreasonable reactions from a minority of drivers who are not then in the best frame of mind to drive safely for a period of time, in which they are arguably more likely to be involved in an incident - and one probably not involving the original "trigger".

 

I'm not advocating higher driving speeds but an official acceptance of the existing situation where drivers and enforcement agencies have come to an unofficial and unstated agreement of an unrealistic speed limit on roads designed for high speed travel in relative safety. The operative word is relative - we all know that accidents would reduce to zero if every car was wheel clamped!

[Shaun K]

What a fascinating thread this is for a model flying forum! I've just read the entire thread thus far and I'm surprised that it has only been in recent posts that a key issue in motorway safety has been raised and it was very well described as "lane discipline".

 

Humour me for a bit while I draw an analogy to another high-risk activity made a whole lot safer with a little "lane discipline" - road cycling in large bunches. Cyclists pack together very tightly to take advantage of reduced wind resistance from drafting behind others. I've been cycling for many years and there are unwritten rules of cycling in large bunches which we call "bunch etiquette". I've ridden many thousands of kilometres in tighlty packed bunches of riders, often with just a few inches from one rider's front wheel to the next wheel in front. More often than not you return home safely from your ride because the experienced riders know and respect the rules - it's a different game when your only protection is a small foam helmet and a layer of lycra that disappears on first contact with the tarmac!

 

Any rider who is new to bunch riding will be told two key rules of bunch etiquette - ride straight and hold a steady speed. Things can go horribly wrong in an instant when someone suddenly slows or changes their line - I've seen that too many times and it's almost guaranteed to bring down more than one rider.

 

So what's my point? The Germans got it right with their rules around lane discipline on the autobahns - the figures show the truth. If everyone respects the need to go fast in the fast lane and move out to the slow lanes when you're driving under any specified limit there's going to be a whole lot less tears, regardless of the relative speeds, be it 60mph or 100mph. Order and consistency are key to avoiding incidents.

 

In my home country of Australia we also have variable speed limits on some highways depending on weather conditions - 100 or 110km/h in the dry, 90km/h when it's raining and it's been statistically proven to be successful in poor weather. It makes sense and it works. Driving at high speeds can be safe, but it's important to choose a speed that's appropriate to the conditions, considering theweather, road or other traffic.

 

As for Terence's need to drive slowly in which ever lane he so decides - In Australia there are large fines for drivers like Terence. We have signs on all our major highways / freeways / motorways stating "Keep left unless overtaking. Large fines apply".

 

One final tip I was given by a traffic safety officer at a local Council was to always maintain a gap of at least 2-3 seconds between you and the next vehicle in front. No matter what speed you're travelling at you will have time to process, decide and take evasive action. Try it out - this works too and has saved me a number of times since I was first told this approach.

 

Stay safe, no matter what the speed limit may be.

 

Shaun K.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

"Only a fool breaks the 2 second rule"

[Simon]

Posted by Eric Bray on 12/10/2011 11:36:56:

I wasn't going to get involved - but -

Alan 4, to quote a tennis character - You cannot be serious!

Cars may be made safer, with better brakes, airbags, scaffolding frames, etc, but the nut behind the wheel is still the same!

So you have a F1 Ferrari or whatever, it doesn't stop a cyclist (pedal or motor) falling off because he/she hit a pot-hole, a missing grid, an oil-spill, wet leaves, etc, in front of you. Can you stop in time from 30 mph? Probably. Can you stop from 100 mph? Not a cat's chance, and neither has the poor soul in front of you!

If you HAVE to be somewhere at a given time, Start out earlier to leave time to get there at a sensible speed.

This is about Motroway speeds being increased to 80mph, do I need to point out that Cyclists are NOT allowed on Motorways, so you point is invalid

Edited By Simon on 12/10/2011 14:15:57

Edited By Simon on 12/10/2011 14:16:27

[Bob Moore]

I actually referred to 'lane discipline' in my first post in this thread.

 

The first time I ever drove in Germany 40 years ago I was immediately struck by how good the lane discipline was on autobahns. Overtake and immediately return to the middle land or 'slow' lane.

 

This was particularly important when you might be travelling at 110 kph and along comes a Porsche at 200kph.

 

Part of the problem is the fact that the 'outside' lane is almost always referred to as the 'fast lane' as has been done in this thread.

 

It isn't the fast lane, it's the OVERTAKING LANE.

 

Maybe it 's the 'fast lane' mentality that makes drivers think they can sit in the right hand lane and just cruise along. (While on their phone and completely unaware of other traffic around them .)

 

That said with traffic densities as they are on many of our UK motorways, it's quite common to see 3 solid lanes cruising along together, so the pulling back into the centre lane might be pretty difficult.

 

I just got back from a month touring in France. Big empty autoroutes (well worth paying the tolls for IMHO.) And generally speaking I saw good lane discipline there too.

 

If there was a genuine 80 mph limit that was rigidly policed, plus a great improvement in UK driving standards, I guess it would be ok.

 

But as I don't see the latter happening, I'd say leave it as it is.

 

 

Edited By Bob Moore on 12/10/2011 15:59:49

[Josip Vrandecic -Mes]

Hello Bob,exactly...but and today,unfortunately, in Germany many drivers use the overtaking lane as the fast lane (owners of the fast cars)....it's very hard and tricky to drive with them

p.s.I hope your health is good.

[Roger 2]

HI all

 

I was not trying to make any implied accusitions to any one, I am suggesting that peoples expectations and wants in this world, do not in every case heed others.

 

We live in a world where people have "rights" some expect more rights than others, people no longer wish to work for or even wait for any thing. " I want it I should have it."

It applies even down to clearing up whether it is a smash on the M1 or rubbish from a picnic left to rot.

 

It would now seem to even apply to the manner people drive or would like to. Every one can find and justify his driving manner, legal or not.

 

I will possibly now have to sign the post as Victor Meldrew!!!

 

But I would still advocate the 70 mph limit, I also believe, as I stated earlier that we appear to live in a more agressive time.

 

Cheers

 

Roger

 

 

[Erfolg]

The introduction to this thread is perhaps erroneous in the description of the 80 mph proposal, The limit is concerned to motorways only, no other class of road.

 

To hold a rational position with respect to the changes, some consideration to the actual number of accidents which occur on motorways and other roads. By proportion and other measures the most dangerous roads are country roads by a significant margin. Motorways are the safest.

 

Consideration of road accidents indicates that speed is not the principle cause of accidents, again being much lower than other issues. This does not fit well with preconceptions and entrenched positions.

 

Yet the evidence does point to a good case in lowering speed limits by considerable margins on non "A" roads in the country from the current 60mph.

 

Those who wish to take account of the stopping distance of modern account cars have good recorded tests on their side. Recent tests with a VW Golf revealed stopping distances almost half those quoted in the Highway Code. Similar tests with a Ferrari were also indicative of much better than frequently quoted values. Apparently there is evidence that public service vehicles and heavy tucks do not exhibit similar performance in their braking capabilty.

 

Some old data indicates that a disproportionate ratio of accidents which resulted in death on UK motorways involved Heavy Goods Vehicles. As can be imagined there was resistance to any consideration of any reduction in the speed limit for the aforesaid vehicles.

 

I personally do think a very good case can be made for higher limits on motorways for cars only.

 

It seems some of views of the type, no death or injury is acceptable, would have modelling banned on the basis it serves no economically useful purpose, resulting in many injuries each year, with deaths having been historically recorded, exposing society to risks and cost to the nation including the NH service which cannot be justified.

Edited By Erfolg on 12/10/2011 18:05:43

Edited By Erfolg on 12/10/2011 18:49:35

[Myron Beaumont]

Bob

I lived in France for the best part of 5 years up until about 2004,so I know what you mean .Yes the "fast"lane was for overtaking -not sat there at the limited speed .Tis no wonder my youngest son has taken up residence in Bordeaux

Grumpy today--No flying