Hobbyki-CK-ing

[Pete B]

I'm an almost 100% satisfied HK customer, with many purchases going back over the past 4 years. I've regularly purchased from their International and DE warehouses, fully understanding that their comparatively low prices may mean that I get less-than-top-quality products.

In the overwhelming majority of cases, I've been pleasantly satisfied with what I have ordered as it has worked as advertised, which is just what I would expect. The only real glitch I've had was being recently sent a couple of incorrect ESC's, which didn't justify the expense of returning. I couldn't prove it wasn't an error on my part, so I had to let it go. C'est la vie......

If I wanted the very best of products, I'd go elsewhere and purchase, for example AXI or Hacker motors rather than Turnigy, or Hangar 9 or E-Flite ARTF's, rather than Durafly or HK's own-brand models.

I'd apply the same philosophy to any purchase, not just aeromodelling. Waitrose or Lidl, BP garage or supermarket fuel, Audi or Kia, you get what you pay for, no more, no less. Quality, choice, service are the three factors which tend to separate one from the other.

So I've decided that, as far as quality is concerned, I'm content to aim a bit lower than the very best in order to be able to pursue my hobby.

Next, how do I acquire the items in a way which will give me the best protection should things not be as expected? The answer is to go in person to a shop where I can examine the goods before I buy, discuss the purchase and take advice from the owner/assistant, make the purchase and leave the shop, satisfied that, if anything goes wrong, I can take it back and sort out the issue face-to-face.

The alternative is to shop on the Internet. Shopping domestically (ie within your own country), there is consumer legislation related to distance selling which gives a greater or lesser degree of protection to the consumer, depending on where you live. If you live in and buy from a UK supplier, you are fortunate in having a level of protection far superior to many other countries.

However, many of us are attracted by the even-lower prices offered by Far-East retailers. Even with the possibility of Customs charges, they can be very tempting. Unfortunately, those countries are a long way away, both physically and in terms of consumer legislation. Frankly, anyone who doesn't accept that they take a chance every time they hit the 'Buy' button is just naive. Our only real prospect of recompense is through Paypal or your card provider, given that one goes about it correctly.

The good news is that, in my experience, most of those Far-East sellers are pretty honest and fulfil their part of the bargain, which is why many of us go back time and again.

Hobbyking are such a company which has realised a business model, despite criticism from some unhappy customers and fear from the established retail trade, which seems to go from strength to strength, leading to expansion and the setting-up of many overseas outlets. They must be doing something right, eh?

Yet very few days pass here and on other forums without someone publishing an account of their latest disagreement or unhappiness with this Hobbyking. I don't see any other company in this hobby on the receiving end of such regular complaint, yet I'm sure there must be unhappy customers of other suppliers out there. Hobbyking are likely to have the largest model retailer customer base in the world - and probably in many individual countries - so it stands to reason that there will proportionally a greater number of complaints.

So why is it that Hobbyking go under the public microscope more than any other retailer?

Are our expectations of them and their products too high? Do we really expect champagne products for lemonade money?

Now, I'm not suggesting that any company should ride rough-shod over consumer protection - they wouldn't last very long anyway. They are there to make money and, provided they retain their customers, that is what they will continue to do. Driving away customers through poor service isn't in their best interests, is it?

What I would suggest is that we have to temper our expectations in line with the price we pay.

I am, naturally, annoyed if an item has a minor fault or the QC inspection has been more fleeting than I would like - I'm no different from anyone else - but when all is said and done, it is likely to have cost me very much less than I could reasonably have been expecting to pay elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no apologist for Hobbyking either - they are big boys and they can look after themselves. I just think I'm looking at things with my eyes open.

There is another factor, too. If Hobbyking UK, now they are established here, find themselves constantly having to replace/refund products that fail to meet their customers' expectations, given the level of consumer protection here, just who do you think will end up paying more for the products to make up the dent in the profits?

Pete

ps I'm rather pleased with the thread title - do you see what I did there?

[Tony Bennett]

I will second all of that.

I have used Hobyking many times now with no complaints or problems. ( other than those caused by myself)

Tony.

[Tony H]

Nice Work Pete! Well said.

I have had many experiences with Hobby King over the years and have bought a vast amount of products from them. I agree with Pete completely stop knocking them they are good for our hobby in the long term.

I too have had things delivered to the wrong address, a wrong item, damaged item and things like a servo with the wrong size horn screw, dead Lipo. 9 times out of ten they have rectified the problem with weeks, usually store credit. I have had to right a few items off but the savings I have made buying from them FAR and I mean FAR out weigh the loses.

So I have no real complaints about them.

But know this, being a Chinese Company always keep your complaints concise, respectful and level headed - The Chinese will not respond like the UK to disrepectful language it'll just drag it out and make it almost impossible!

 

Edited By Tony H on 10/01/2013 18:36:10

Edited By Tony H on 10/01/2013 19:00:29

[Frank Skilbeck]

Posted by Pete B on 10/01/2013 18:17:47:

There is another factor, too. If Hobbyking UK, now they are established here, find themselves constantly having to replace/refund products that fail to meet their customers' expectations, given the level of consumer protection here, just who do you think will end up paying more for the products to make up the dent in the profits?

Pete

ps I'm rather pleased with the thread title - do you see what I did there?

Pete, I am a pretty satisfied HK customer, I often find the reviews feedback pretty good. Just recived my first order from their UK warehouse and I don't mind if it does cost a little more as the delivery is quicker.

But re your comment above, the problem with what you state there is that if there is no customer protection then the supplier gets away with poor quality control and the ones who get the faulty goods are subsidising the rest of us, OK if you are not one of them.

Now the UK warehouse is open I'm tempted to get one of their models which I wouldn't have taken the chance on from HK.

PS - like the thread title

[Tom Wright 2]

Yep.... well put Pete , I have also been very happy with all my many many many! orders from HK .

If anyone expects a Rolls for the price of a Mini then I would agree that is an unrealistic expectation possibly born from inexperience or unreasonable view of the industry. For me any minor downsides are vastly out weighed by the savings.

Tom.

[Greybeard]

ps I'm rather pleased with the thread title - do you see what I did there?

Yes, you made a typo.

[Bob Cotsford]

and it's not just HK, remember all the posts complaing that Giant Cod were being fussy over warranties just because the complainants dog had chewed the battery a bit before it was sent back etc.?

We just have to accept that with the compo culture too many people want top class service for bargain basement prices and are surprised when the level of service matches the price paid.

[Pete B]

Posted by Frank Skilbeck on 10/01/2013 18:36:44:

if there is no customer protection then the supplier gets away with poor quality control and the ones who get the faulty goods are subsidising the rest of us, OK if you are not one of them.

I'd certainly agree with that, Frank, and I'm not advocating the provision of sub-standard goods with no recourse for the customer. That wouldn't be part of HK's philosophy either, I'm sure, as the modelling grapevine, efficient as it is, would have customers deserting them in droves if they went down that line.

As Tom says, it's about balancing price with expectations.

Pete

[Tony H]

Agreed

[pete taylor]

Hear, hear from a thoroughly satisfied HK customer.
You pays your money....etc etc

[SkippyUK]

A slightly different perspective;-

Do we really need/want HK to be ultra successful and perfect with national TV advertising?

Surely this will kill even more LHS's and manufacturers.

My experience at the moment is that many people do not know of HK's existence until they get into the sport which leaves the LHS's and other manufacturers to supply some of those first planes etc.

I doubt there's many in the sport who don't know of HK tho' irrespective of whether they would use them or not.

How many local car parts stores have been closed by Halfords?

Just a thought!

[Ben B]

Not many, Halfrauds are rubbish! They tried telling me my 1.5 diesel Megane didn't exist!

[Codename-John]

skippy, where do you ( or partner ) do your weekly shopping, where do you buy your clothes, fuel, household appliances etc

I bet its not all at the local greengrocers, tailors, small independant garage, local family owned electrical store.

How many local independant stores like that close down when supermarkets arrive ?

Its just the trend of retail in the world of capitalism that the big boys come in with their cheaper prices, bigger range etc and squash the small independant retailers out of the water because they cant compete. Its not Hobby Kings fault, its capitalisms

[Trevor Chadwick]

I've bought lots from Hobby King, and only had two faulty items - two servos costing $1.99 each (about £1.30). Considering that I can remember when servos cost an arm and a leg, what was I thinking of when I ordered them? Actually, their $3.99 servos are excellent.......

[Pete B]

Posted by SkippyUK on 10/01/2013 21:09:23:

Do we really need/want HK to be ultra successful and perfect with national TV advertising?

Surely this will kill even more LHS's and manufacturers.

I really wouldn't want to see them become so successful that they swamp the home market, Skippy, and I don't think it will happen. As I alluded to in the OP, they are aiming at a sector of the market - a significant sector, maybe - but there will still be those who will either pay a premium for quality gear or who will be buying products that HK don't see as giving them an adequate return.

As regards the LMS, this problem isn't exclusively that of hobby shops. The High Street is dying by the day as we can all see. Whether we like it or not, small traders have been gobbled up by the larger groups, right across the retail market, for some years now, and those that survive do so because they can offer something different - service, quality, niche product, whatever.

If the UK LMS wants to survive and thrive, I suspect the answer may lie with the distributors. IMHO, they do seem to take a rather large slice of the cake, given the margins the LMS apparently works to. Those distributors are sourcing the gear from the same place as Hobbyking - Chinese factories - and although HK will no doubt drive the prices down by bulk buying, a national distributor should be able to get reasonably close to HK's cost, surely.

Agreed, labour and all the other costs of running a Western business will be higher than in the Far East but I'm sure there must be some in the UK who are making money somewhere along the line.

If the UK trade doesn't come up with a workable answer to the likes of Hobbyking, you are probably right in suggesting some will find it a struggle to continue and we'll be left with just the specialist providers.

Pete

[Ian Jones]

Well there are some exceptions but on the whole I think HK have the reputaion they deserve - sometimes good, sometimes bad. If HK want to change that then it's up to them to please the customer and not the other way around.

There's huge scope for improvement and if they do improve then they may well dominate the market. Is that good or bad?

[Bearair]

Pete B said,

There is another factor, too. If Hobbyking UK, now they are established here, find themselves constantly having to replace/refund products that fail to meet their customers' expectations, given the level of consumer protection here, just who do you think will end up paying more for the products to make up the dent in the profits?

Sorry but I completely disagree with this statement. The distance selling laws in this country are rigourous but they apply to all companies operating within the UK and thus create a level playing field. I urge anyone who feels that they have recieved goods from ANY supplier of inferior quality or with faults to make themselves aware of the pertinante law and pursure their complaint fully.

If HK UK or any other company feel that there products are produced down to a price and you get what you pay for then advertise it as such. IMHO the model buyer as a whole allows suppliers to get away with far to much poor quaility and design as it is. Demand that products are of merchanable quality. We certainly do with other products why except it in the modeling trade? Challenge statements such as "we all have some problems with ARFTs" when they are made by employees of model suppliers.

In another thread on here you will see that HK UK customer service require a modeler to return a entire model because of a faulty servo. He has given them chance to resolve the issue but only because he has raised the complaint on a forum has an employee of HK taken ownership of the problem. IMHO that is why so many issues are being raised on forums.

Not all people who buy from "wharehouse" companies expect variable quality, often because they are not experienced within the hobby. So they buy expecting their "dream model" . I have very recently helped just such a modeller who purchased from HK US. I wont comment on what he recieved from them other than to say if anyone wants pictures PM me and I will send them to you. Despite there clearly being an issue HK requested he return it to the US wharehouse at his expense. Obviously he was not going to do so as it would of been throwing good money after bad.

Finally i should like to tackle the " the models all come from the same factory argument" I often see on forums. Yes often they do, but the price difference is not because of the other suppliers making a fat profit it is because of the rigourous quality control that other suppliers may enforce. Having worked in engineering all my life I am aware that in the manufacturing process errors are made, if I insist on exacting tolerences across all the items I order then I am aware of the increase in price as the factory has to throw away substandered units.

So to summerise, if HK UK can make a profit selling UK quality goods under UK law cheaper than anyone else I wish them all the best in there venture. Anyone who wishes to import goods from abroard understanding the risk they take good luck to them.( as long as they are prepared to declare the correct amount and do not attempt to defraud me or other uk tax payers)

[Codename-John]

Posted by Bearair on 11/01/2013 11:04:20:

In another thread on here you will see that HK UK customer service require a modeler to return a entire model because of a faulty servo. He has given them chance to resolve the issue but only because he has raised the complaint on a forum has an employee of HK taken ownership of the problem. IMHO that is why so many issues are being raised on forums.

that isnt true, they havent said for him to return it

he cannot get the just the faulty servo out without damaging the model, and Youd probably have to do the same with any other item you purchase from anywhere, if you buy a faulty TV you dont just send them the damaged part back for replacement do you ? No the whole TV goes back, you usually have to pay the return postage and get it re-imbursed

Edited By Codename-John on 11/01/2013 12:15:16

[Bucksboy]

I was lucky enough to receive two HK for Christmas, one from my wife that I selected, a 1600 mm Skyraider and a small Rare Bear from my boys as a complete surprise. Both came from HK in the UK. The Rare Bear is fantastic, it flies really well and is stunning value. The Skraider flies really well but, as predicted in all the forums, the retracts failed virtually immediatley, one never even managed a take off never mind a landing.

I've raised a request with support to have them replaced, I dont want to send the plane back, just the retracts.

I've bought several times in the past but only from the the UK warehouse and have been really pleased with my purchases. I know about building down to a price but this is one bit that has gone a tiny bit wrong.

[Piers Bowlan]

I am a very satisfied HK customer having made many orders over the past few years. Never have I received the wrong item, defective item, an incomplete order or a damaged item through inadequate packing. I wish I could say that about orders I have placed with some UK model businesses.

One or two UK modelling companies could learn a thing or two about Website design too. HK fully describe their products, accurately in my view, usually with many detailed photographs. The product information contains customer reviews, some good, some bad. Read them! Some of the reviews are clearly well informed and contain critical information that may dissuade you from buying. I remember reading on a forum of a very disgruntled HK customer who complained bitterly that the RTF he purchased was a dog to fly. Had he bothered to read the reviews he wouldn't have parted with good cash to buy one. Buyer beware, as ever.

[scott cuppello]

I really do want to stay out of this, but so much of the stuff I read about quality control is just plain wrong and therefore I would like people to be aware of some real facts from the horses mouth before this goes any further. As a company, our average warranty claim/sales ratio is 2.8%......yes, you read it right......and that is the total figure, please bear in mind that a high percentage within that 2.8% is user error, I think that figure speaks for itself.

Secondly, we offer a massive number of different products, some of which are exactly the same products as sold by other suppliers but for a much higher retail price......the reason for their pricing is not mine to explain.....but I can assure you the reason for ours is not inferior quality.

Finally, the construction of the Tiger Moth mentioned is such that this particular servo failure meant that we have decided to replace the whole model for the customer, this unique aspect of the design is why I got involved, not because it was "on the internet", if it had been a model with a conventional arrangement, it is very unlikely that I would have needed to get involved.

That is all I have to say, thank you.

[Bearair]

Posted by Codename-John on 11/01/2013 12:14:51:

Posted by Bearair on 11/01/2013 11:04:20:

In another thread on here you will see that HK UK customer service require a modeler to return a entire model because of a faulty servo. He has given them chance to resolve the issue but only because he has raised the complaint on a forum has an employee of HK taken ownership of the problem. IMHO that is why so many issues are being raised on forums.

that isnt true, they havent said for him to return it

he cannot get the just the faulty servo out without damaging the model, and Youd probably have to do the same with any other item you purchase from anywhere, if you buy a faulty TV you dont just send them the damaged part back for replacement do you ? No the whole TV goes back, you usually have to pay the return postage and get it re-imbursed

Edited By Codename-John on 11/01/2013 12:15:16

I think youre missing my point, neither option is really practical, one being to return the entire model the other to butcher the plane. My point is it is hopefully being resolved by HKs representative because it has been raised on a forum.

[Codename-John]

Posted by Bearair on 11/01/2013 12:45:27:

Posted by Codename-John on 11/01/2013 12:14:51:

Posted by Bearair on 11/01/2013 11:04:20:

In another thread on here you will see that HK UK customer service require a modeler to return a entire model because of a faulty servo. He has given them chance to resolve the issue but only because he has raised the complaint on a forum has an employee of HK taken ownership of the problem. IMHO that is why so many issues are being raised on forums.

that isnt true, they havent said for him to return it

he cannot get the just the faulty servo out without damaging the model, and Youd probably have to do the same with any other item you purchase from anywhere, if you buy a faulty TV you dont just send them the damaged part back for replacement do you ? No the whole TV goes back, you usually have to pay the return postage and get it re-imbursed

Edited By Codename-John on 11/01/2013 12:15:16

I think youre missing my point, neither option is really practical, one being to return the entire model the other to butcher the plane. My point is it is hopefully being resolved by HKs representative because it has been raised on a forum.

No I completely dont see your point, Practicality has nothing to with it, He recieved a faulty item, as Scott says its been replaced, usually it would be the same scenario for ANY item you purchase by mail order, You have to send it back for replacement.

Scott isn`t a representative from Hobby kings customer service dept, as I understand He`s product development etc but actually cares enough to come onto the forum and in his own time will assist other forum members who may be having a problem, Is there anybody ever from Ripmax, Perkins, Horizon etc that does that ?

[Erfolg]

I have to agree with John, my faulty Perkins Lipo charger issue was never resolved by Perkins. It was just tough luck. Buy another.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Interesting thread. I have bought stuff from HK - not a lot admittedly, but some, and yes generally been happy with what I bought, occassionally I've been "content".

OK. that's my perspective out of the way.

Traditionally we had the LMS and we either called-in or mail ordered. The LMS was supplied in turn by the distributors: Ripmax, Perkins, Horizon etc.

Then the internet came along. Some of the more wide awake LMS's saw an opportunity to branch out the mail-order side of their business. Some have been very sucessful at this - think of Webbies, SMC, Slough, TJD etc. But basically we are still in the same model. We are still buying form an "LMS" - just at a distance and that LMS is still supplied by the distributors.

I think that outfits like HK and GS (formerly GC) are to be congratulated. They have brought a whole new way of doing the model business to the scene. Bulk buying, direct dealing with manufacturers, large scale discounting etc.

The problems, it seems to me, are twofold:

1. Some of us are dealing with HK and GS - but wanting stay within the framework of the LMS model. This leads to unrealistic expectations. These new outlets offer incredible value and I'm sure they do try to address customer needs. But with the best will in the world they cannot be the LMS! So, having taken your discount it is, in my opinion, then unfair to criticise the volume vendor because he doesn't act exactly like an LMS would in terms of "hand-holding" customer support. Note I'm not saying he doesn't respond to legimate problems or faulty goods - he does. But due to volume he has to have a "system" for doing this and inevitably that "system" tends to be less flexible and more impersonal than we might experience from the LMS. I believe this is basically a short term problem - people will get used to new ways of working and except new "ground rules"

2. This is more contenious. The model is very agrresive and very sucessful. It is perfectly possible that the purchase of modelling equipment could degenerate to a situation where a small number of very large outfits effectively domninate the market completely. Now at present you could argue that we already have that in effect because before the advent of HK & GS the whole UK market was effectively in the hands of half a dozen distrubutors. But, and I'm speaking purely personally here, I do not think that a market totally dominated by a very small number of discounters is really in our long term interest. They will decide what models we see, they will decide how much they cost and how we will get them. Anyone who doubts the problems control by a small group causes - think of retail banking. OK the scale is different - but the principle holds good.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 11/01/2013 14:35:35