Altercation with paraglider

[Malcolm Fisher]

There has been at least one death when a model and a hang glider had a collision. IIRC, the model glider hit one of the bracing wires which broke causing the hang gilder wing to collapse.

I also know of hang gliders sharing the slopes where I fly. There was again a fatality of the hang glider pilot, but this time no model was involved as all modellers there had decided that the wind had become too turbulent for safe flying. The hang glider took off and was carried sideways into low level high tension wires and electrocuted.

Both very sad occurrences.

Malcolm

 

 

Edited By Malcolm Fisher on 18/04/2014 21:07:34

[Shaunie]

It is of course only right that man carrying aircraft take precedence over models once in the air.

However it certainly appears to me the paraglider was in breach of the ANO for failing to ensure his flight could be made in safety and reckless endangerment of the (model) aircraft that was already in the air (I believe no distinction is made whether the aircraft that has been endangered is carrying a life-form or not).

Common courtesy should have ensured he made himself known to the modellers concerned, asked if it was OK to fly and called "clear to take off?" and "taking off". Just because his aircraft is manned and the others were not does not in my opinion give him automatic right of precedence. It appears that their opinion is to "just get in the air and then they must get out of our way".

The problem is in a fair fight it seems we always lose.

Shaunie.

[Erfolg]

It does appear that we all accept that the paraglider was in breach of some aspects of the appropriate regulations.

If a modeller likewise subsequently then does not comply with the regulations, then that is also an issue.

How such a situations are assessed by authorities is open to conjecture. I would suggest that all involved would get some blame, who is seen as being the principal person at fault, can often be determined by who and how the people involved present their version.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

If the CAA conduct an official investigation into an incident then blame will be apportioned as appropriate. I can't see how, if the facts were as presented ( "a paraglider had taken off from behind me and about 10 metres to my left and straight into the path of my oncoming plane" there could be any blame laid on the model pilot.

In both cases that I was directly aware of involving members of the gliding club I was in, no blame was apportioned to any parties involved in "air miss" cases involving military jets and a commercial airliner. The CAA were only interested in establishing the facts and not out to find a scapegoat.

[Wiltshire Flyer]

TOY.....TOY!!
One way guaranteed to turn me from my usual smiley flower picking demeanour into the bathroom door destroying mad man from The Shining.... Is to use the word "toy" when referring to our hobby!!!..... (guards! I need the jacket again!)

[malcolm woodcock 1]

I'm sure I read this article a couple of years ago else where, is it being recycled to wind people up.

[Phil May]

It's no wind up, I witnessed it yesterday.

[Rod Parsonage]

I too have a sense of deja vu - the first post almost word for word.

Of cause if it is deja vu I cannot have seen it before!

[Rod Parsonage]

Have just seen Phil Mays post. Did not mean to imply this is not a serious matter.

[Phil May]

Morning guys, this WAS a serious matter, Steve has described what happened very well.

Two things I would add.

Firstly.

When this guy first arrived at the site, well before the incident, we were not flying and he approached us and told us 'you can now f... off'......he then walked off.

To be honest I thought he was just larking about.

Secondly.

After the incident during the exchange of words, I stated that he did not call that he was taking off....his reply was.. 'I don't need to'

Phil

[ken anderson.]

sounds like a funny man Phil(political description)..... like I said earlier.....get together with Steve and write everything down factual........sounds to me like he was a bit 'iffy'...... if you see him-tell him that the matter has been recorded should it be required that you need to recall the fact's etc......and you have taken some advice....

ken Anderson ne..........1 BP dept.

[Old Geezer]

It's just a guess - but I would think said "Pilot" isn't the most popular member of his club, assuming he has joined a club at all. Such types will usually find themselves asked to moderate their language/behaviour/attitude to other members, or find another club. I'm not just referring to Hang Gliding clubs, but any other social club, let alone in a work situation.

The paraglider's bullying and confrontational attitude, if this matter goes further (CAA inquiry), should be enough to condemn him - and in the event of some form of insurance claim, leave him holding onto the wet and dirty end of the stick!

Edited for language.....

Edited By Pete B - Moderator on 19/04/2014 11:22:38

[kiwi g]

In my personal opinion . any craft being flown with an occupant has right of way . BUT.BUT .

In this case due care could not be taken by modeller . what was the paraglider doin taking off with you standing in his path of travel for a start . Thats like taking off into a tree . you dont do it .

Also . even tho he was behind you surely you knew he was there . its very similar for the modeller to know whats around him at the time of flying . . due care of surroundings here too .

I have to agree on whole that the modeller was at a disadvantage and the paraglider was a Dumbass...

Cheers kiwi g

[Martin Whybrow]

In light of Phil's post, the guy's also commiting an offence under the public order act (swearing with the intent of casuing harassment), so the police may also be interested in having a word with him.

[Dai Fledermaus]

Steve,

I live in Ystrad Mynach not too far away from Fochriw, I'd be interested to know how I can get to the slope there. I've driven through Fochriw but don't know it that well.

[avtur]

You might like to think that an individual about to take to the air in any type of flying machine would have selfpreservation as their number one priority. This incident just goes to show that some people just don't have that sense. If the paraglider pilot is willing to say that he doesn't have to inform anyone of his decision to take off then he appears not to be taking all reasonable precautions to save his own neck ... there is no hope when dealing with people like that. Surely nothing is more precious than life but if the pilot is not willing to take all reasonable precautions to protect his own life ... well what can you say.

I have seen similar conflicts at two sites where model flying and paragliding share the same airspace. While it is true to say that every hobby will have its share of "wide boys" I have to say that my own experience of paraglider/hand gliders is that they have a greater than average memerbership who appear to be less concerned with their own mortality than you might expect. To be honest I would not want share airspace with some of these types and if their behavior was sufficiently wreck less I would go home rather than run the risk of a conflict where someone gets hurt. Don't get me wrong a decent constructive dialogue between all involved is obviously the best way to deal with the situation (and usually works), but that simply isn't possible with some of the characters I've seen.

Edited By avtur on 19/04/2014 18:36:53

[russ d]

Hi, this is what the bmfa have, **LINK**

 

I have found that like aero modellers, the majority of para gliders are ok but the minority are a pain, reporting the incident to the bmfa & bhpa is your best option.

just my 2p worth,

 

r.

Edited By Pete B - Moderator on 20/04/2014 10:26:07

[fly boy3]

Very good find Russ d, The last paragraph (8) puts it in a nut shell. Thanks FB3

[Pete B]

Yes - and he seems to have driven a horse and cart through rules 1 to 5 as well!

Pete

[Steve Houghton 1]

Russ. I followed the link and found it a very interesting read.

We at A470Soaring share 3 sites with paragliders when there are light wind conditions and on two of those sites, we are usually separated for launching by at least 100 metres. We always keep an eye open for the paras and a shout out is made when they launch and when our observer feels a para is heading our way so that we can take appropriate avoidance action. Unfortunately the paras seem intent on traversing the slope directly in front of us. Whether this is to intimidate us to make us move I don't know.

At the Fochriw site, there is a flying/launching area approximately 300 metres long. Now if we arrive and the paras are already established there, then we can move away from them for launching and we keep an eye on their activities and warn any RC pilot of where they are but, on this occasion, we were on site first but they insisted on launching from the same spot.

I have sent an email to Steve Milson who is the Safety Officer for the SE Wales Paragliding Club with a view to meeting up and discussing, not only Friday's incident but, co-existing together on the slopes so that we can all enjoy our hobbies in safety and with little risk of collisions and injury.

[J D 8]

I think your meeting is a good move,let us know how it goes.Our model club some years ago used to fly on an active airfield ,the full size knew we operated on the disused strip and we knew how they operated,no problems for years then one day a piper cub pilot decided to do a low pass down our strip at under 50 feet,our spotter saw him coming and models got out of his way.He never saw any,but he did wander why there was a row of cars on the side of the strip.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I think that dialogue is definitely the sensible way forward. If you can build a good relationship between the soaring club and the paragliding club at representative level then hopefully each side can keep any renegade element in their ranks in check - much better that way.

But even if you can't build a relationship, and it does go pear-shaped at some point in the future, then your efforts to "extend the olive branch" will stand you in good stead anyway. It always pays in these situations to be the one who is seen by independent parties as "Mr Reasonable"!

BEB

[Steve Houghton 1]

I totally agree BEB.

I have had a reply to my email and they are aware of the incident. Our meeting will take place this week and I will be taking along with me a copy of the document that Russ sent the link to from the BMFA. Hopefly we can bang this out so that we can all live in harmony together.

But should a renegade flier turn up, from either side, I shall be carrying a copy of that document for them to read.

[Chuck Plains]

I've met a couple of power paragliders at Little Haldon. They only seem to come up there about 4 or 5 times a year, but are agreeable chaps to talk to. Plus, of course, the have to shout when they lift off, otherwise they won't be heard over the noise of their motor!

[russ d]

Hi, I'm glad to have helped you in the right direction.

I'm lucky that there is only a couple of shared sites in the purbecks But I needed to find that info out just because of one paraglider ...........

I have found that making the effort to talk with them helps But your never going to get far with someone with an attitude like that and there has been a couple of times when I have packed up and moved on, just remember to fly for fun & there will always be the days when its too windy for the paras to fly !

r.