mark bullement Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Hi, we are having a little debate at our club and I wanted to get some other opinions. Quadcopter, would it be classed as a helicopter or a fixed wing? Over to you. Thank you in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Manuel Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Hi Mark There is another similar thread on here already, which answers your question. **LINK** The bottom line is that it's an issue for your local club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John F Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 A guad copter is also called a quadrotor helicopter or multirotor helicopter. Lift is generated by the rotating airfoils. A fixed wing is exactly what it says - fixed. If you only had the two choices of heli or fixed wing by definition it cannot be fixed wing. Is your club really debating this so much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 IMHO a quad is a form of helicopter deriving its lift from rotating aerofoils that are powered. As for 'A' tests, the fixed wing requirements don't fit the bill at all and although the Heli 'A' could be emulated by flying a quad, I believe the inherent electronically derived stability of these machines disqualifies them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 It's probably being discussed in a number of clubs, as in this thread. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Gary is obviously correct - ultimately, at the moment, it is a matter for each club. Personally, I would class them as a form helicopter. Not only because of the fact that they derive their lift via a rotating aerofoil - an autogyro does that and yet I personally would group those with fixed wing aircraft - for the reason given below. For me the essential difference between a helicopter/multi-rotor on the one hand and a fixed-wing/auto-gyro on the another is the question of the necessity of translational motion in the case of the second group. A fixed wing aircraft/autogyro must move through the air to generate lift - they cannot remain stationary, a helicopter or multi-rotor does not have this restriction. They can move through the air - but they don't have to. Some might say "but what about a fixed-wing aircraft that is prop hanging" - I would respond that in that particular flight regime the fixed wing aircraft is really operating as a rather poor helicopter! Why do I see this as the important element of distinction? The answer is because it fundamentally affects the flying area management. When fixed wing aircraft are flying together one does not normally expect to encounter a stationary aircraft in the air. When helicopters (or multi-rotors) are added to the mix this is a distinct possibility. Therefore the "rules" governing flying in that common area must take this into account. On a slightly wider topic. The lack of an A-cert schedule for multi-rotors is causing some clubs difficulties. In clubs such as mine it is a condition of our lease from the council that you cannot fly solo without an A-cert. This means we effectively cannot really operate multi-rotors. I understand that the BMFA are looking into this matter - I think they need to get their finger out! BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Where a club's presence on a site doesn't require as part of any lease, an 'A' cert, then common sense can prevail. Where such a restriction does exist and a new quad flier needs an 'A' to satisfy the land owner, then I suppose the simplest thing at the moment is to have the new quad flier take a F/W 'A' with a hand launched foamy. Not ideal, I grant you, but it should satisfy the local requirements, whilst not being too onerous on anyone who's serious about moving forward without too much delay. Eventually, BMFA will come up with something more appropriate, based on the heli 'A' but tuned towards the needs of multi rotor technology (don't hold your breath though). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Well fella's I am a member of the club in question The thread was moved here because any discussions on club rules are for club meetings not our forum Thus it was removed from our forum and asked to be brought to the members, now its here Our club will discuss any problem at the correct place, a club meeting, not on the forum. We will address any supposed issue using common sense not a dictionary definition and when ALL members can be present, not just the ones on the forum. BEB I spoke to Duncan Mc Clure again, the draft for the multi test was objected to by one area, so it never got passed. I agree it not good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Skilbeck Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Posted by Cuban8 on 08/07/2014 09:32:27: IMHO a quad is a form of helicopter deriving its lift from rotating aerofoils that are powered. As for 'A' tests, the fixed wing requirements don't fit the bill at all and although the Heli 'A' could be emulated by flying a quad, I believe the inherent electronically derived stability of these machines disqualifies them. Depends on the Quad in question, the most basic ones don't have any more stability than a helicopter, my Dualsky quad doesn't have any autolevel, just a 3 axis gyro, much like my Blade 300 flybarless heli. This might be part of the problem developing a suitable A test for a quad, because some have a higher degree of electronic control which will hold level and height and maybe even have a return to home. Not so much flying the quad as guiding it round the air, if you are developing an A test for a quad what mode of operation do you base it on. They still all fly by beating the air into submission though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Posted by Frank Skilbeck on 08/07/2014 12:19:38: Posted by Cuban8 on 08/07/2014 09:32:27: This might be part of the problem developing a suitable A test for a quad, because some have a higher degree of electronic control which will hold level and height and maybe even have a return to home. Not so much flying the quad as guiding it round the air, if you are developing an A test for a quad what mode of operation do you base it on. They still all fly by beating the air into submission though Providing it's not self righting, self levelling, self landing etc but needs pilot input to keep it one place or steer it around the sky, then as a test of basic competence, the flying part of the heli 'A' would surely be OK. Edited By Cuban8 on 08/07/2014 12:46:57 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark bullement Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply to my post. It seems that this matter is causing issues for the bmfa as well as local clubs. Its nice to be able get other peoples options and opinions on matters. Having read the posts that have been put and previous posts, it seems to me that they definitely fall into the category of helicopters. Thanx again mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Privett Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I saw the draft of the multi rotor a test a few weeks ago, the one that was apparently subsequently rejected. It bore a very close resemblance to the heli a test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Manuel Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Posted by mark bullement on 08/07/2014 18:09:36: .... it seems to me that they definitely fall into the category of helicopters. Thanx again mark Mark, Not sure how you concluded this. The only thing that is definite is how your local club has chosen to categorise them. Your club has definitely given them a category of their own. The BMFA are also developing separate category A and B tests. Apologies to anyone else for the leakage of local club politics onto this forum. Edited By Gary Manuel on 08/07/2014 20:20:34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_tj_ Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Not sure how you concluded this. The only thing that is definite is how your local club has chosen to categorise them. Your club has definitely given them a category of their own. The BMFA are also developing separate category A and B tests. Apologies to anyone else for the leakage of local club politics onto this forum. Edited By Gary Manuel on 08/07/2014 20:20:34 I've been reading this with interest, The majority of posts seem to mention it is more helicopter than fixed-wing. I myself believe it's a more helicopter than fixed-wing. IT's a VTOL to in my opinion. it takes off vertically, it lands vertically. It flies very similar to a heli. Not sure where club politics came in to the original post, it mentioned a debate as in most of the clubs are having a debate anyway. It was simply a fixed wing or helicopter question. No one had to mention which or what club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Manuel Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Hi TJ I fully agree that a quad is more helicopter than fixed wing. A cat is more like a dog than a goldfish, but it's still a cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Privett Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Posted by Gary Manuel on 08/07/2014 20:13:44: Apologies to anyone else for the leakage of local club politics onto this forum. Whether it's 'local club politics' or not, I think it's a very valid topic to discuss here. I have no idea (and no interest in knowing) which club the question comes from, but it's a question that affects, or will affect, many clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I agree John - it is indeed a question a lot of clubs are examining - or as things stand with the BMFA - not examining (Oh dear - I apologise profusely!). As long as the debate ranges around the general question fine. But please note, we don't know (or wish to know) the club or the specific background, the general position on here is that we do not accept the exporting of any club politics to the forum - if it does stray into those dark and murky waters it will cease to be! BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Pothamwaite Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Yes Mark this was a valid and a good question ,(quad copter) is a helicopter which has four equally spaced rotors, usually arranged at the corners of a square body. With four independent rotors, the need for a swash plate mechanism is alleviated. It seems to me reading all the posts that this was a good question which many clubs will have there own view and rules ,but who has brought club politics into this ? I think Gary you was on wrong forum or you misunderstood the initial post easy mistake have done it my self .keep up the good work lads good forum ,actually there is a species of cat called fishing cat and does swim and dive to catch food ,dog doesn't do that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_tj_ Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 To me, It doesn't need a category as such. It just needs the user to be able fly it safely. If you fly a quad while fixed wing aircraft are up, the user needs to be able to move it out of the way in the case of a deadstick etc. Someone asked me the other day if they should take off the prop guards, erm no! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I am the one who said i was a member of the club in question, please accept my apologies folks. T.J I would take safe flyers anytime whatever they fly. John BEB I have more sense and respect for this forum than to do something so silly. Edited By john stones 1 on 08/07/2014 22:28:52 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Pothamwaite Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 TJ your comment is common sense in my eyes ,I fly at a club that has a FPVquad copter flier and has been useful finding lost planes, and lost members too if that what you like I am all for it .I would Just like one that can go to the off licence pay and bring me back a 4 pack .This is first time I have been on this forum as at my age was hard to learn to to use the computer but I will be up all night reading all these forums, what I have seen so far is very good info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Oh watch it Jim - at 12:00am the "night shift" come on - and they are even odder that the day lot! BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vecchio Austriaco Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 being a bad boy I would classify it as a toy VA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Posted by Jim Pothamwaite on 08/07/2014 21:43:51: Yes Mark this was a valid and a good question ,(quad copter) is a helicopter which has four equally spaced rotors, usually arranged at the corners of a square body. With four independent rotors, the need for a swash plate mechanism is alleviated. It seems to me reading all the posts that this was a good question which many clubs will have there own view and rules ,but who has brought club politics into this ? I think Gary you was on wrong forum or you misunderstood the initial post easy mistake have done it my self .keep up the good work lads good forum ,actually there is a species of cat called fishing cat and does swim and dive to catch food ,dog doesn't do that Dogfish do John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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