Laser 180 Petrol

[Jon H]

Posted by Tim Flyer on 06/12/2018 06:06:04:

I thought that was strange Ron 😉. My 180 Glow in my Hurricane goes best on an 18x10 . The make I have is a “just engines” wooden 18x10 which was quite mild in pitch for a 10 , but runs well. . Anyway great to hear u managed to fly despite poor weather recently. Our runway is far too soggy now . No Warbirds there until spring I think...

No flying at all for me. Our field has gone now and i am without a club

Worst of all, im going to have to fly electric over the winter as its all i can get away with in the park :'(

[Ron Gray]

That’s a bummer Jon, what happened?

[Tim Flyer]

Bad news Jon and very sorry to hear . By the way Ron some photos here would be great of the Hurricane to inspire Us over winter 😊

Edited By Tim Flyer on 06/12/2018 10:04:38

[Jon H]

Posted by Ron Gray on 06/12/2018 09:47:50:

That’s a bummer Jon, what happened?

the usual story. Farmer retired so the house/farm buildings are being redeveloped and the farm run remotely. As they didnt want 100+ 'civilians' with access to their fancy new development we got the boot after more than 50 years on the site

Edited By Jon - Laser Engines on 06/12/2018 10:31:00

[Ron Gray]

@Jon - that just ain't fair!

@Tim - A colleague was filming it on Tuesday so I'll see what he's got. I'll also take some photos of how I've modified the basic 'plane to make it more scale-like, probably put up another thread for that.

[Tim Flyer]

Looking forward to that Ron 😊. A bit of extra detail can’t really make an ARTF outstanding.

[Scott Edwards 2]

I popped into Laser HQ this week, and whilst there Jon very kindly showed me the new GA30. It's a beautifully engineered piece of kit, and will be well worth the wait 👍

[Jon H]

A GA30 progress update request popped up on the other thread but i will answer here to keep things tidy.

Development of the engine is basically complete and the pre production batch of engines has been sent out. Currently we are waiting for feedback on the engine and its performance. As its not been flying weather feedback is a little thin on the ground at the moment but what we do have has been mostly positive so far with only a few issues. Most of these issues have been related to unfamiliarity with the engine and revised instructions have been written.

I am hoping to build another batch of engines at the earliest opportunity. If anyone is interested in getting a hold of one please let me know. If you do want one please be aware that i need it in the air asap as we still need feedback on how it performs and how you find the instructions etc. I also hope to do more GA25's as there are currently only 2 out there and we need some more.

[David Davis]

Jon, are you saying that you are looking for people to buy and test-fly a pre production GA25, which I take to be a 25cc petrol Laser? If so put my name down for one and I'll shove it in the WOT 4 XL.

[Jon H]

Posted by David Davis on 09/01/2019 14:48:11:

Jon, are you saying that you are looking for people to buy and test-fly a pre production GA25, which I take to be a 25cc petrol Laser? If so put my name down for one and I'll shove it in the WOT 4 XL.

Drop me an email David or give me a call and i can explain the whole thing

[Ace]

Already on the list for a GA25 - I hope

Zero waiting.

[Jon H]

Posted by Ace on 09/01/2019 21:47:10:

Already on the list for a GA25 - I hope

Zero waiting.

yup, you will be happy to know you are no1

[Ron Gray]

Crikey is it really over a year since we saw a post on this thread? Well I can update on my GA30, it has been in fairly regular use, well up until last November when I put all of my larger 'planes to one side for the winter! The motor has been used in sports 'planes - Great Planes Giant sportster, Warbirds - ESM Hurricane and aerobatics - SBach 300 Vantex but has come back home to the Sportster as that seems to be the airframe that it is really a good fit for. No problem with the others (well it didn't have enough oomph for 3D aeros but then I didn't expect it to, sounded lovely though!).

But what really puzzles me is where are the other reports of these engines, I certainly wasn't the only one to take on board a 'testing' responsibility for Jon but with the exception of a couple of bits of feedback I've seen nothing. I for one would be interested to know if others had the same initial issues as me when I had air in the fuel line and had a devil of a job to get rid of it with me making it worse by fiddling with the needles (slapped wrist from Jon!).

[Jon H]

mmm yes it has been a while.

Well...the project is essentially dead in the water following the poor response from the test engines testers.

I built a total of 10 engines and they were sold to 8 customers with two customers taking two engines each. Each customer stepped up to say they wanted to help with testing, and each agreed to get the engines flying right away with 3 weeks being a hard deadline for the thing having to be in the air, and each got a better price on the engine as a nod to their assistance and to cover potential hassle caused by teething troubles.

Over 2 years later and only 3 customers have flown their engines. One claims to have run it once and was never heard from again, one attempted to run theirs last year but had the engine molested by resident 'experts' who broke the ignition unit, and the other 3 have never made any contact at all so i assume the engines are still in their boxes.

Laser have always manufactured glow engines. Our customers asked us for petrol and these same customers then wanted to be a part of the testing. So, when these same people then dont bother to take the engine out of its box and actually test it there is very little motivation for us to continue development as clearly there is little interest.

The situation is made worse by the fact that the 3 who did fly the engines gave us excellent feedback. They confirmed a problem that i expected to see and steps have been taken to fix it. Petrol Bob has flown his two extensively and cannot fathom how they use so little fuel. Ron, you have flown yours a bunch and despite a few issues in the early days during familiarisation.. and a few lawn dart incidents, your feedback has been spot on. The final chap up in scotland has flown his in all weathers until another lawn dart situation brought it back to me for repairs. I dont think anyone has had any major problems beyond the one i expected to see. Mechanically its sound and i could release them to market tomorrow. But, we need to run another batch of parts and if there is no interest... If everyone had helped as much as those 3 guys the engine would have been on sale for probably the last 18 months.

So that is the story and i have shifted my attention to another project. The petrol is not dead and i would like to get back on it, it just seems rather pointless if no-one is actually interested in it so i am going to work on my new thing instead.

If support for this new thing is as lacking as it was for the petrol then it will be the end of Laser as i will likely be out the door. Its hard enough trying to push the company forward as it is and my motivation comes from wanting to offer new things for my customers to enjoy. If the customers dont care then the motivation to do the job is more or less gone.

And yes, i know im taking it all rather personally, but perhaps that is because i designed and developed every part of the blasted thing and then fought tooth and nail for the resources i needed to get it manufactured. I then built, tested, and shipped each one, wrote the instructions... 6 years hard work, so yea, i take it personally.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Chin up Jon, hope the next project goes better, there's nowt so queer as folk.

[Tony Richardson]

Well if one of those guys that have them sitting in a box and are not going to use them, send one out here to Canada I have a model that would be perfect for it ready to go right now and a another about to hit the building board,. Sorry to hear the frustration Jon I was really looking forward to this engine, good luck with the new project..

Tony....

[paul d]

Hang on a minute Jon, on page one of this thread someone asked a question about the engine, roller bearings etc and you said you had no details....now your claiming you designed and developed every part????

Have I missed some thing??

[Jon H]

Posted by paul d on 12/03/2020 20:24:47:

Hang on a minute Jon, on page one of this thread someone asked a question about the engine, roller bearings etc and you said you had no details....now your claiming you designed and developed every part????

Have I missed some thing??

Yes, yes you have.

And if you wish to question my integrity regarding my engine design 'claims' you might want to read the posts you reference properly first. Posts 6 and 7 on the first page.

[paul d]

Just read posts 6/7 and I'm still confused, may I just point out I am no way questioning you're integrity Jon.

[Nigel R]

You've sent 3 engines out to people who have run them and used them as intended and all 3 of those performed up to expectation. So far I'm not sure I see an impediment to getting the petrol 30cc available on a commercial basis.

As for the guys who bought - at a discount - and then vanished... I really would not take the lack of useful feedback from them (or indeed the one who messed up the ignition or the one who said he'd run it - and then vanished) as any indication of anything, other than an object lesson in how much you can rely on the general public (and there are all sorts of reasons why someone may seem to vanish, even with the best of intentions). It certainly does not indicate how easily you will or will not be able to sell the engines.

Honestly, if I was managing your project I'd now move to a small batch for proper commercial sale.

 

All the best on the other project, whatever you decide.

Edited By Nigel R on 12/03/2020 21:32:47

[Jon H]

Nigel, it needs more testing. If its not 100% i cant sell it. I wont let customers beta test an unfinished product and i really need more people to use it as the instructions need to be test driven far more intensively. I want to be sure its right before i let it loose.

Paul, in your first post you stated that i did not have answers to questions regarding design aspects of the engine when i was asked. You then used my apparent lack of knowledge to question my assertion that i designed the engine as surely i would know those things if i did the work?

Checking the thread, i can see that i answered the question about the design in the following post so am at a loss to understand your posts.

John, thanks. i will try

Tony, email me. i will put you on the list for the next batch whenever they come round.

[Ron Gray]

What you guys are missing is the fact that the first purchasers of these engines agreed to give honest feedback to Jon so that any gremlins could be ironed out, that was part of the deal, well it certainly was in my case and also that of 2 others. To not get the feedback is not just frustrating for Jon but it means that the engines haven't got the 'in field' testing from ham fisted end users like me. It is only when that feedback is received and then acted upon, that it can then move forward into full production. Of course all of this is my opinion and you can take it with a pinch of salt but that is the way I would feel if I were in Jon's shoes.

Anyway, I will keep running my 2 coz I'm happy with them, sure they could be improved and I was looking forward to seeing such improvements made but that will now probably not happen which is a great shame.

[Nick Somerville]

As someone who has recently come back after a long break to model making and flying, particularly power as I was almost exclusively a scale glider flier I would like to know what all the enthusiasm for petrol is about.

I have been researching engines for my next scale build which needs something in the 50-60cc size four stroke range of power to fit in a radial cowl. I have ruled out the petrol two strokes because they seem to sound louder and unrealistic. Then there are petrol 4 stroke radials, most of which sound amazing, but the price is eye watering. Further to that they appear to require a plethora of add on equipment like ignition systems, high capacity LIPO batteries, fuel pumps etc. All of which adds to price and complexity of running and maintenance.

So to get back to the Laser thread here and Jon’s comment about Laser being intrinsically a glow engine manufacturer.... Well I can’t think of a better choice of engine for my project than a Laser 360 V Twin. I know they are currently unavailable but the price they did sell for is barely more than an equivalent powered 2 stroke petrol, quality canister, ignition, lipo etc that probably won’t last as long or sound right.

Since I don’t have any model petrol engine experience I am quite prepared to be shot down on this post, but at least I should learn some stuff I don’t yet understand.

[Jon H]

petrol is seen as being cheaper, cleaner, and more reliable than glow but that is not the full story.

Petrol itself is a cheaper fuel than glow fuel, and you use less of it so there is a cost saving there. If however you are like me a the smell of petrol makes you sick when it stinks your car out then you can use aspen alkylate petrol which has no smell. Its great stuff but costs the same as glow fuel.

Petrol engines are also more expensive than glow when compared like for like. If you consider initial cost vs running cost it will take at least 5 years, and probably as many as 10 in some cases for a petrol engine to be cheaper than a glow, at least in the 10-50cc category. Also, if we consider your desire for a 360v and a model to go with it, i suspect you are looking at a £2000 setup once in the air assuming you buy it all new. If so, and you used £15 worth of glow fuel over a weekend flying instead of £6 of petrol, is it really going to make any difference to the bank balance?

Petrol engines are cleaner running. they use less oil, make less mess. Which is why i am running my lasers on lower oil fuel now. At 7% oil glow engines are very clean running. Not as good as petrol, but getting closer.

Reliability. Petrol is less reliable from a statistic point of view. More complexity, more points of failure etc. In the field its a wash. both engines can be screwed up by setting them up wrong or bad maintenance.

For me, the things i love about the petrol in my stampe is the sound, the vibration reduction, and the ability to turn even bigger props. The throttle is even smoother on the petrol than the glow, but that is due to my carb setup. my experience with walbro type carbs on engines this size is not very good. I also love the sound. Very quiet at low revs and a nice crackle at full power.

[Tony Richardson]

Thanks Jon I will PM you my email.