The Frustrations Of learning To Fly At A Club

[Dai Fledermaus]

I know it's been discussed on this forum many times, and I know it makes sense for someone new, or someone returning to the hobby to join a club and get proper tuition, but it hasn't worked out for me

Now I have to admit that I'm not very good at pushing myself to the front of the queue, as it were, and I don't enjoy bothering people too much. When I joined a local club, everyone there was very friendly and made me welcome, but I found that although the club had several members who were qualified as Trainers, I found myself standing around for hours waiting for one of them to offer to give me a lesson with my own ic trainer. As a new member I didn't feel I knew them well enough to go and ask for a lesson and to be fair to them they were there to fly their own aircraft. One chap there, who like me was a novice, said "you'll have to go and ask some to help or you'll just be hanging around all day"

One senior member did take me under his wing and I did get in a few tentative flights, but he was often not there on the days I was at the field and visa versa. The field was about 40 mins away, so it wasn't exactly on my doorstep and I found it all a bit frustrating really. Gradually as the weather changed and the opportunities for a novice to get some flights in became fewer, I stopped going.

So what now? Well, I'm not giving up, I determined to teach myself. I live in an area where there is a lot of common land with just a few sheep and the odd pony to worry about. I'll renew my BMFA membership in the New Year, buy a Blixer 2 or Easy Star or something similar and just get on with it. I can go when it's convenient for me and when the weather permits. Then, when I think I'm reasonably competent, I'll join a club because despite what I've said I think club membership is ultimately the way to go. It's just that learning to fly at a club didn't work for me.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

That's a shame Dai, hope it go's well for you

John

[Tony Read 2]

I'm with you on that one. I really don't like to impose on others when they are having fun flying. I suppose I'm rather backward in coming forward. So in the end I taught myself.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Olly P]

I used to make the instructor aware I had arrived (normally by making him a brew if was flying. we would have a chat and then a flight or 2.

An idea from when I was an active Glider pilot, was students used to chaulk there name onto a blackboard and then instructors would 'assign' themselves to students, and simply call out a name when they wanted to teach - most of the time to be honest.

The key to this approach was the log-book though, an instructor could look in my log bok and get an idea where I was and what I needed to do next.

I do plan to rejoin my old club at some stage, but it all depends on my job in the new year - times they are a changing.....

[Steve T]

Despite all the advice from practically everyone on this forum, I'm also teaching myself, very slowly and cautiously admitted. Check out my post on 'have a rant' around 11th November, now my nearest other club is over an hour drive away, makes for a long and expensive few flights so I fly 'after harvest'.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

We have touched on this before. I appreciate it can be difficult, but in my experience, even in the most beginner friendly clubs, the usual etiquette is for the beginner to approach the instructor/s. The reason is simple - we don't know if you are ready/keen to go for a flight right now and we often have a couple of beginners "in the queue" who have already asked so we are unlikely to walk up and down the pits "hawking our services"!

The advice I give beginners in our club is the following:

1. Know who the instructors are - in our case relatively easy as our pictures adorn the website!

2. Before you go to the field check - have you got everything you are going to need? Batteries charged, plane in good fettle, Tx charged, starting gear shipshape and Bristol fashion? It's very frustrating for an instructor - who might be trying to help 3 or even 4 beginners that session to turn up to take you for a lesson only for him to find out that your starter battery is flat and anyway the glow plug is U/S. So make sure everything will be ready and working as far as you can. We all get the odd unexpected glitch - but it shouldn't be down to lack of planning.

3. When you get to field set yourself up with a pitch in the pits. Get everything out, fueled, lined up and ready to go.

4. Cast an eye around - identify an instructor that looks to be free. Don't pick one who is obviously prepping his complex scale Spitfire for a flight - pick one that is just standing around having a chat. Go up and simply ask "Could you take me up for a lesson please". Remember, all instructors are volunteers - we agreed to do this, in becoming instructors we've publicaly stated that we want to help beginners. So its not at all "out of order" for a beginner to ask. The worse the instructor might say is "Oh I'm just booked to take Fred up, but I'll do you next" or maybe he might call over another instructor. But if he were to just refuse (or agree in bad grace) then frankly he shouldn't be an instructor and you might want to look for another club if that experience is common as the problem there is not you - its the instructor! But I'm sure that wouldn't happen. 99.99% of instructors will simply say "Sure, are you ready to go now?" And that's where your preparation pays off and you can say "Yeap, I'm all fuelled up and just have to start it".

OK, if you are the "shy type" I know that can be a bit hard - but it is what it is and this is how it works in every club I've ever been involved with - and that it works is testified to by the fact that loads of people learn to fly every year. But you do have to "take the initiative" a bit.

One final point. About 14 months ago our club started a club forum. Now often clubs start forums and after a while they fall into disuse. But this one has found a very useful purpose. There is a thread where you can post if you are going to the field. This is particularly valuable for beginners who can then see if instructors are going to be there and if so who. It really works very well.

I wish you luck what ever route you choose Dai - but those others perhaps in a similar situation - I offer the advice above!

BEB

[Jon H]

I am training coordinator at my club and we deliberately place the responsibility of organising training on the student. This is for several reasons but most of all it puts them in control.

The way I put it to newcomers is that they are the pilot, they are in control at all times. They decide when to fly, they decide where the model goes when in the air etc etc. Everything is their responsibility and if it goes wrong their fault.

As an example a common question might be 'why are you flying over there, its out of bounds?'. An equally common answer would be 'the wind blew me'. This is not a valid reason, they are in control, they are the pilot. The next question would be 'why didn't you do XXXX to prevent yourself getting into that situation or do XXXX to get out of it', they can then reply 'I don't know how' and the instructor can teach exactly that thing they don't know.

The same is true on the ground. 'are you ready to fly??' 'yup, im ready to go' 'no you aren't the engine is not running' 'I don't know how to start it'.....

It sounds draconian perhaps, or like its putting too much pressure on newcomers, but I have found it very successful particularly with younger members (11-15 who will not come up to an adult and ask for help) as it gives them confidence to take control. Also, as has been stated, people do not like to bother others all the time and feel out of the loop, so if they can take control of what they are doing and get the model fuelled/started/batteries plugged in etc etc they at least feel they have accomplished something.

In essence, they are flying solo from day one, the instructor is only there to fill in gaps in their knowledge and skill. To begin with these gaps are large and a lot of help is required, but once something has been explained and they know how to do it that's it. Clearly monitoring is still done to make sure no bad habits creep in, but that's normal anyway.

Edited By Jon Harper on 05/12/2014 14:05:49

[Steve T]

I will also renew my bmfa in January, but I will still need to join a club or do something eventually to at least get my 'A' cert. I don't want to fly around as 'Johnny no mates' for ever. I find it worrying that clubs complain about too few members and certainly not enough of the younger generation, then when someone new does turn up they are hardly encouraged and sometimes actually looked down on. Do they want this hobby to become exclusive to those whom have flown 'forever' ? I would love to see this hobby and passion receive the recognition I fell we deserve, but some attitudes need 'correctional behaviour'.

[Steve T]

And I am not 'negative' ! I love this hobby and was even asked by several mates why I don't start another club, I would love to if I could get very experienced fliers and builders along, there is available land, but that isn't the point, the clubs already exist, maybe the one I visited just needs an introduction to the cattle prodder !

Edited By Steve T on 05/12/2014 14:36:39

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Steve T on 05/12/2014 14:08:26:

I will also renew my bmfa in January, but I will still need to join a club or do something eventually to at least get my 'A' cert. I don't want to fly around as 'Johnny no mates' for ever. I find it worrying that clubs complain about too few members and certainly not enough of the younger generation, then when someone new does turn up they are hardly encouraged and sometimes actually looked down on. Do they want this hobby to become exclusive to those whom have flown 'forever' ? I would love to see this hobby and passion receive the recognition I fell we deserve, but some attitudes need 'correctional behaviour'.

Don't tar all cubs with the same brush Steve, and it's Billy no mates

John

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Dai Fledermaus]

BEB,

What you say makes sense, but in my case, if someone had said to me `When you get your model fuelled up and the engine running and you've done your range checks etc ,etc, then come and ask one of us to take you up for a lesson` I would have known what was expected of me, but it didn't happen. This despite the fact that there was never more than eight or ten members there at any one time. Everyone knew I was there to learn because my 3ch trainer being a bit old school attracted some attention.

[Dave Hopkin]

Flying clubs like any other sort of grouping of humans generates its own dynamic, how that dynamic depends very much of the "Elder Statesmen" of the club, if they set an example of finding time for newcomers, offering advice and guidance (without taking over!) then that permeates through the club.

When I was first looking for a club I sent off several emails most clubs replied, some very very brusque and off hand - One in particular was welcoming and felt friendly - that was the one I went too - and found much the same attitude face to face as I did via email

But of course first impressions are a two way street, I have never been accused of being shy or retiring so I sort of made my presence known (in a nice way I hope!) and started chatting - relationships are built and slowly you become integrated

We dont have a formal training program or a lesson scheduling system, its not needed when there is only one learner and 5 or six experienced flyers and 1 instructor and 1 "trainee instructor" - it just works

Perhaps the size of the club has a lot to do with it, the more perhaps not the merrier from a trainee's point of view

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Dai Fledermaus on 05/12/2014 15:19:05:

BEB,

What you say makes sense, but in my case, if someone had said to me `When you get your model fuelled up and the engine running and you've done your range checks etc ,etc, then come and ask one of us to take you up for a lesson` I would have known what was expected of me, but it didn't happen. This despite the fact that there was never more than eight or ten members there at any one time. Everyone knew I was there to learn because my 3ch trainer being a bit old school attracted some attention.

Fair point Dai. That's why we always make a point of making it clear to newcomers that they are very welcome, but the initiative to fly has to come from them. That way everyone knows the "ground rules" and everyone knows exactly where they stand and what is expected of them. It sounds to me like the club you went to failed to take that really important first step.

BEB

[Erfolg]

Most of us who have experience of waiting or obtaining the help of an instructor will have sympathy.

In my case i wanted/needed an "A" cert, I had flown models for some 5 years on returning to modelling, outside the "A" test requirement. It took me 12 months to get a cert. Others who joined at the same time are still under instruction.

You may ask why? In most cases it is more about availability of instructors, models which remain flyable, the weather, more than anything else.

If you can fly safely, without causing an issue by yourself, with a suitable model, yes I would go for it. The Bixler seems a suitable model, from my small amount of knowledge.

At the same time I would and did use a flight simulator. On the simulator I found it is necessary to try all those things not necessary to fly safely or the "A" test. That is inverted flight, bunts, Cuban eights and anything else you can think of. The reason being my flight simulator was far easier than the real thing.

I would also keep up with the club. With time, the members will come both to recognise you and your flying needs. As confidence is gained in you, so will the help come much easier.

In my principal flying club, buddy leads for all the newcomers has become the norm, particularly as the club is 90% Spektrum. Being the odd one will cause some minor problems, in my case Futaba, others JR.

Although I am a 100% electric flyer, I actually trained with the club IC model, which I looked after, maintained, provided the fuel and kept the Rx and Tx charged. I would recommend this approach, primarily as the air time is far higher, being some 10-15 minutes per flight, rather than some 6 minutes. Then the model being some what heavier, handles the winter wind s better. Additionally trainers can be very much more robustly built than many electrics. The club trainer is a DB Mascot, many such models can be purchased at low cost, from various sources.

At the end of the day, you are always in the hands of others when waiting for an instructor. With the best will in the world, it will never be as convenient as flying at the time you feel like it. Looking at things from the club members perspective, although welcoming, many will not know you from Adam. Some I thought were aloof, turned not to be so. Others who were horrified, by me just saying, no, I do not need the model taking of, soon adjust to you not as being as incompetent that they suspect you may be. Perhaps, it would have been better, to let some one take the model of, etc. Joining a club is a two way learning process, where the talking becomes as important as the flying.

[Tomtom39]

Hello Dai,

That's a real shame.

At my club we have a "mentoring" program for all new members and the same applies with Instruction. A new "student " is allocated two Instructors that he can ring and organise lessons with, either using his own or a club trainer.

I'm glad that you are not going to give up (I'm self taught ie some forty years ago - having built my own radio from a second hand Micron kit - with help from my metalwork teacher - my first R/C model reflected his influence ie it was jolly heavy and very over engineered - It taxied very well!)

[David Davis]

I actually enjoy teaching beginners!

Brief story. A few Sundays ago I turned up at the site and saw a new member with a very popular sports model finished in red all over and guided by a Futaba FM radio. (No names no pack drill!) I admired the model and the owner said that he had flown in the Eighties but was just coming back to the hobby. I offered to trim out the model for him and to hand him the transmitter once it was flying straight and level. He'd made a splendid job of setting up the model and the engine, and I don't think it required any adjustments, so having got it flying straight and level and into wind, I handed him the transmitter.

He did ok but I remarked that he seemed to be losing a fair bit of height on the turns. He said, "That's because I keep pulling the left stick back."

The penny dropped! I said, "Do you mean you used to fly Mode 1?" He said that he did!

I explained that we had a spare Mode 1Futaba transmitter in our trainer box and we agreed that I should land the model and that we should fit his crystal and battery to the Mode 1 transmitter and have a go with that. I introduced him to an experienced Mode 1 colleague and he is now making steady progress having bought an ARTF trainer and a 2.4 GHz radio.

[Mowerman]

There is another side to this, our club has one instructor but often 'students' fail to attend or arrive with models that have little or no preparation then get upset when told what is required.

[Dane Crosby]

I have posted in the past about my return to R/C flying. I have learnt about the modern systems and now understand how it all works.

I have joined a club to regain my confidence to fly my own A/C and it has gone well. The instructor is very encouraging and really does enjoy flying the training aircraft on a buddy-buddy lead. He has even let me have a go (still on Buddy lead) with his Spitfire.

The encouragement and level of training I have received is second to none. I am a bit of a shrinking violet and don't want to interfere with the guys and girls flying their own models but all of them encourage me to fly with them as much as I can.

I'm very impressed and very grateful to the instructors and the very pleasant club atmosphere here.

I guess I've hit lucky!

[Dave Hopkin]

Posted by Mowerman on 05/12/2014 16:19:51:

There is another side to this, our club has one instructor but often 'students' fail to attend or arrive with models that have little or no preparation then get upset when told what is required.

Perhaps the more experienced members should spend a little time showing them what is required rather than "telling" them..................

After all its supposed to be an enjoyable hobby

[Mike Etheridge 1]

About eight years ago after returning to the hobby I had to pass my field test at my club that is 52 miles away. After making a mess of my first landing and failing, later in the afternoon I made what was described as a text book landing on my second test and passed. However the club now requires for any new members to pass the 'A-test' and have as a result had far less flying accidents. I decided as the club was so far away, this year I would re-join a local club also so that I could get more flying in and also address passing the A-certificate.The management of this issue by the local club has been excellent such that I was contacted by E-mail inviting me and all others without A-certificates to attend practice sessions on specific days of the week but not week-ends. We of course had to respond to all the invitations to fly and needed to turn up on time. Initial flights were carried out with the club's trainer and we were subsequently provided with second hand models and transmitters plus 'Buddy Leads'. However there has been a measure of frustration for me in as much as on most of the early flying sessions offered I was on holiday as my wife had booked three holidays. To date due to bad weather mainly, I have only been able to attend four flying sessions, the first we had a 15 mph cross wind to contend with and on the second session a 15 to 20 mph cross wind which damaged the club trainer on it's first flight so that it could not fly. A large dog also trod through the wing of the plane just before it was loaded back into a car. On the third session my trainer had a partial fuel blockage so it 'dead- sticked' on flight one and the Enya 45 was considered too loud with the standard silencer. On the forth session on the first flight the secondary silencer fitted separated and the plane-dead-sticked. On the second flight the electric power failed on take-off but fortunately no damage was done. To date I have had three silencers,two batteries,two switches,three fuel tanks and to date no flying time on the trainer (Irvine Tutor) but I am a lot clearer on what I have to do to get through the test. Who knows perhaps 2015 will turn out better?

 

Edited By Mike Etheridge 1 on 05/12/2014 20:44:43

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I think you've had everything but the Partridge in a pair tree Mike hope your luck changes soon.

John