BMFA Country Members

[Keith Lomax]

Posted by iqon on 10/01/2017 16:26:09:

What percent live to far away to vote !!! that should also be addressed......If anybody is up for the challenge...

one man one postal vote..

Considering that the AGM is held near Coventry - pretty close to the geographical centre of the area of representation (England, Wales and Northern Ireland), and that we usually have representation from Kent, Devon, Lancashire, Durham, South Wales, and Belfast, and virtually everywhere in between, I would say that nobody is too far away to vote. We also allow proxies.

[iqon]

I`m not knocking the BMFA, I am not a country member, my club was represented I think they do a wonderful job. Just wish they treated all members as equals

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

We also allow proxies ?

And how do they listen discussion then

John

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Question raised at NFC EGM about Country members having no vote on the day, all i saw was uncomfortable people trying to reply, they looked embarrassed to me. So why has nothing been done ?

As a man says above "unforseen consequences" there's why nothings been changed. Will be more "unforseen consequences" to come when the EASA ruling is finalised. We going to keep ducking this ?

John

Edited By john stones 1 on 18/01/2017 12:02:12

[MattyB]

Posted by john stones 1 on 18/01/2017 12:01:43:

Question raised at NFC EGM about Country members having no vote on the day, all i saw was uncomfortable people trying to reply, they looked embarrassed to me. So why has nothing been done ?

As a man says above "unforseen consequences" there's why nothings been changed. Will be more "unforseen consequences" to come when the EASA ruling is finalised. We going to keep ducking this ?

Probably. In reality the system at present if perfectly designed to resist change, so if those at the top don't want to adjust the governance model there is very little the membership can do about it, especially country members who have no say in a vote. As we've seen in this thread those within the BMFA trumpet the "put yourself forward, get elected, bring about the change" argument. Unfortunately but those of us who have tried to work within the system see no evidence that large scale change is possible without wholesale change of personnel at the most senior levels within the BMFA; we know that is not going to happen anytime soon.

I can only see two possible outcomes now re: the governance question, and neither of them are that appealing...

1. The BMFA does a good job on the EASA negotiations and delivers the NFC without major financial impact on the organisation. As a result most members remain happy (and unaware/ambivalent to the democratic deficit within the BMFA), membership stays constant or grows and there is no change to the governance model.
2. The EASA negotiations go badly and/or the NFC experiences financial issues. As a result significant numbers of members rebel and/or leave for other organisations when they realise they don't have any democratic power beyond their OMOV to the Exec positions. This situation could of course result in changes being made, but the organisation is likely to be damaged by the process and weakened financially and politically by loss of members.

[Rich too]

I was a country member and I voted.........with my feet and moved to the LMA

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Adrian Smith 1]

Well I have just had an experience at club level which has clear parallels with the way the BMFA views its country members.

Normally, in the past, when I pay club fees separately my membership card is mailed to me, as due to home commitments in the evening I don't attend committee meetings. Well in December I paid my dues via cheque/mail, but I had not received my membership card. I queried this via email this week to the membership secretary and was told that to cut overheads, Country Members of the club were not being sent memberships cards! So despite paying exactly the same as other club members I am being treated somehow as an inferior being. Not very democratic I think you will agree. If it's that big an issue increase the fees by a quid to cover it rather than insult my intelligence with such a flimsy excuse.

Anyway that's my experience, but I don't really know what to make of it or whether this is now common practice.

 

Edited By Adrian Smith 1 on 18/01/2017 22:43:06

[cymaz]

Posted by Adrian Smith 1 on 18/01/2017 22:42:24:

Well I have just had an experience at club level which has clear parallels with the way the BMFA views its country members.

Normally, in the past, when I pay club fees separately my membership card is mailed to me, as due to home commitments in the evening I don't attend committee meetings. Well in December I paid my dues via cheque/mail, but I had not received my membership card. I queried this via email this week to the membership secretary and was told that to cut overheads, Country Members of the club were not being sent memberships cards! So despite paying exactly the same as other club members I am being treated somehow as an inferior being. Not very democratic I think you will agree. If it's that big an issue increase the fees by a quid to cover it rather than insult my intelligence with such a flimsy excuse.

Anyway that's my experience, but I don't really know what to make of it or whether this is now common practice.

Edited By Adrian Smith 1 on 18/01/2017 22:43:06

I'm not a country member. If that's the case Adrian, it just stinks....how are you supposed to show you've paid your dues and are covered by the insurance if you fly at another club or ,say, go to Greenacres ?

[John Privett]

I think Adrian was saying his club isn't sending out club membership cards to club members who are BMFA country members.

If that's true then what is the point of having a club membership card? Unless they're just holding them until they have proof that the member has renewed their BMFA membership, and then sending them out - that's the only vaguely sensible spin I can put on it!

[Colin Leighfield]

Well, I'm a country member and received my 2017 card promptly. I've also received my club membership card, no problem or delay with either.

[Rich too]

Posted by Adrian Smith 1 on 18/01/2017 22:42:24:

Well I have just had an experience at club level which has clear parallels with the way the BMFA views its country members.

Normally, in the past, when I pay club fees separately my membership card is mailed to me, as due to home commitments in the evening I don't attend committee meetings. Well in December I paid my dues via cheque/mail, but I had not received my membership card. I queried this via email this week to the membership secretary and was told that to cut overheads, Country Members of the club were not being sent memberships cards! So despite paying exactly the same as other club members I am being treated somehow as an inferior being. Not very democratic I think you will agree. If it's that big an issue increase the fees by a quid to cover it rather than insult my intelligence with such a flimsy excuse.

Anyway that's my experience, but I don't really know what to make of it or whether this is now common practice.

Edited By Adrian Smith 1 on 18/01/2017 22:43:06

That's outrageous!

[Denis Watkins]

Nah Adrian, they are cutting small pence from overheads, insulting people, and in truth, cutting work for the secretary.

Lame, as has been said, and thoughtless, and inconsiderate. Bring it to their notice as we are too short of good

membership to treat people like this.

[Colin Leighfield]

I did what I always do, 'phoned BMFA, renewed both my own and my son's (country) membership, paid with the credit card. It took less than five minutes from starting the call to putting the 'phone down. Both cards arrived within the week by post. My club membership has always been renewed on time. Nothing has changed at all, so this all sounds a bit odd. I've never had a problem with renewal, I've found that the 'phone call is the fastest way to do it.

[Adrian Smith 1]

Correct John P that is what I meant. I paid my country BMFA fees direct online in early December so I don't suspect that was the reason for my local club not supplying me with a membership card. If it was the reason, and I would understand that, why not come out and say it up front rather than waffle around the subject and give an excuse not to send one at all.

[LMA Dave]

Hi everyone, please forgive me, but, I am somewhat confused here, so maybe someone can help me out. Not being an BMFA member I don’t have any issues or axe to grind with them on how they do business, but according to this thread, country members don’t have a say or a vote, but yet most of you are members of a BMFA club to which its members do have a vote. I am sure there is a perfectly good explanation for this but I am failing to see what it is.

[MattyB]

Posted by LMA Dave on 19/01/2017 09:05:10:

Hi everyone, please forgive me, but, I am somewhat confused here, so maybe someone can help me out. Not being an BMFA member I don’t have any issues or axe to grind with them on how they do business, but according to this thread, country members don’t have a say or a vote, but yet most of you are members of a BMFA club to which its members do have a vote. I am sure there is a perfectly good explanation for this but I am failing to see what it is.

Simple - I and many others who have posted in this and the many NFC threads believe the BMFA should allow all it's members equal OMOV rights on the very biggest issues, irrelevant of whether they are club or country members. For example, a decision was made at the NFC EGM to proceed with a programme that (as set out at the time) required investment anywhere between 4-10x the net worth of the BMFA. Despite being a decision that if it were to go wrong could sink the organisation, getting on to 1/3 (~10k) of members had no right to vote despite them paying exactly the same subs as members joined through their clubs. That is unfair, it's undemocratic and it's unnecessary.

That I personally have a vote through my club under the current system is irrelevant - I hold this view despite the fact that (at least in theory) "my" vote would be less valuable if every member is on an equal footing.

Edited By MattyB on 19/01/2017 09:59:53

[Cuban8]

Posted by Adrian Smith 1 on 18/01/2017 22:42:24:

 

Normally, in the past, when I pay club fees separately my membership card is mailed to me, as due to home commitments in the evening I don't attend committee meetings. Well in December I paid my dues via cheque/mail, but I had not received my membership card. I queried this via email this week to the membership secretary and was told that to cut overheads, Country Members of the club were not being sent memberships cards! So despite paying exactly the same as other club members I am being treated somehow as an inferior being. Not very democratic I think you will agree. If it's that big an issue increase the fees by a quid to cover it rather than insult my intelligence with such a flimsy excuse.

Anyway that's my experience, but I don't really know what to make of it or whether this is now common practice.

 

Edited By Adrian Smith 1 on 18/01/2017 22:43:06

It never ceases to amaze me what levels of parsimony some clubs will stoop to. Presumably, the club in question treats its members who renew through another club in the same way. 55p for a second class stamp is hardly a fortune, for goodness sake. My club (of which I am membership sec.) would never countenance such meanness, and I'd be surprised if many others would also. Takes all sorts though, and it's a matter for the club and its members to live with.

As for the way the BMFA is run, the present system (which does actually work, and was OK back in the mists of time but that doesn't necessarily mean it's right in 2017) will only be changed when, as we've seen in national politics of late, a voluble and effective number of people give up their time to challenge the status quo. I don't know whether those members exist within our ranks, or indeed whether there is the appetite for  a lengthy political battle within our organisation, that TBH, most members don't really care about, one way or the other.

Without a ground swell of popular dissent to drive it, proposed change along the lines of which much keyboard time has been lavished of late, will not be forthcoming. Personally, I think we're stuck with what we've got for the foreseeable future - perhaps the time is not right anyway for what could be a very destabilising time for the BMFA, especially  in the face of external regulating pressures that are being formulated against model flying at the moment?

 

 

 

Edited By Cuban8 on 19/01/2017 09:58:38

[Gary Manuel]

Posted by LMA Dave on 19/01/2017 09:05:10:

Hi everyone, please forgive me, but, I am somewhat confused here, so maybe someone can help me out. Not being an BMFA member I don’t have any issues or axe to grind with them on how they do business, but according to this thread, country members don’t have a say or a vote, but yet most of you are members of a BMFA club to which its members do have a vote. I am sure there is a perfectly good explanation for this but I am failing to see what it is.

I'm a member of a club and pay my BMFA through the club.

I still think country members are being unfairly treated by the BMFA.

Unfair is unfair whether it affect you or not.

[LMA Dave]

Okay, thanks for the explanation on how the BMFA treats its country members, which I have to agree seems bazar to say the least. But why aren't the country members getting there membership though the club they are a member of which will give them a vote? That is the bit that is confusing me.

[MattyB]

Posted by LMA Dave on 19/01/2017 09:49:56:

Okay, thanks for the explanation on how the BMFA treats its country members, which I have to agree seems bazar to say the least. But why aren't the country members getting there membership though the club they are a member of which will give them a vote? That is the bit that is confusing me.

Lots of country members are not members of a club! As to those affiliated club members who choose to renew their BMFA membership as country members, I suspect perceived convenience is the main one; they can renew online in seconds or (if they prefer) over the phone with the BMFA direct and the card will arrive in a few days. Also the vast majority of members do not realise that by joining as a country members they are disadvantaging themselves in terms of voting; only a fraction of members will have read the Articles of Association, so their implicit assumption will be that the organisation will be democratic and that they will receive a vote in crucial matters.

[LMA Dave]

Posted by MattyB on 19/01/2017 10:08:40:

Posted by LMA Dave on 19/01/2017 09:49:56:

Okay, thanks for the explanation on how the BMFA treats its country members, which I have to agree seems bazar to say the least. But why aren't the country members getting there membership though the club they are a member of which will give them a vote? That is the bit that is confusing me.

Lots of country members are not members of a club! As to those affiliated club members who choose to renew their BMFA membership as country members, I suspect perceived convenience is the main one; they can renew online in seconds or (if they prefer) over the phone with the BMFA direct and the card will arrive in a few days. Also the vast majority of members do not realise that by joining as a country members they are disadvantaging themselves in terms of voting; only a fraction of members will have read the Articles of Association, so their implicit assumption will be that the organisation will be democratic and that they will receive a vote in crucial matters.

Then I would of thought the BMFA had a duty to make sure all members are aware of this other than burring it in its literature which nobody reads. The BMFA News is the perfect platform.

I am sure I am just repeating what has been said before and I apologise if I am, I just find it sad (as big as the BMFA is) that so many country members are paying the same price as everybody else but because they didn't join though an affiliated club they don't have a say or a vote. Sorry but it has got to be wrong.

I am so glad I am in a position that I don't have to be a member, I don't doubt the BMFA and what it has done for the hobby and what it is continuing to do, the price you pay for membership is worth every penny. But I do strongly disagree with the way it treats its country members, so maybe it is time they reviewed there policy on this.

[MattyB]

Posted by LMA Dave on 19/01/2017 11:41:14:

Posted by MattyB on 19/01/2017 10:08:40:

Posted by LMA Dave on 19/01/2017 09:49:56:

Okay, thanks for the explanation on how the BMFA treats its country members, which I have to agree seems bazar to say the least. But why aren't the country members getting there membership though the club they are a member of which will give them a vote? That is the bit that is confusing me.

Lots of country members are not members of a club! As to those affiliated club members who choose to renew their BMFA membership as country members, I suspect perceived convenience is the main one; they can renew online in seconds or (if they prefer) over the phone with the BMFA direct and the card will arrive in a few days. Also the vast majority of members do not realise that by joining as a country members they are disadvantaging themselves in terms of voting; only a fraction of members will have read the Articles of Association, so their implicit assumption will be that the organisation will be democratic and that they will receive a vote in crucial matters.

Then I would of thought the BMFA had a duty to make sure all members are aware of this other than burring it in its literature which nobody reads. The BMFA News is the perfect platform.

I am sure I am just repeating what has been said before and I apologise if I am, I just find it sad (as big as the BMFA is) that so many country members are paying the same price as everybody else but because they didn't join though an affiliated club they don't have a say or a vote. Sorry but it has got to be wrong.

I am so glad I am in a position that I don't have to be a member, I don't doubt the BMFA and what it has done for the hobby and what it is continuing to do, the price you pay for membership is worth every penny. But I do strongly disagree with the way it treats its country members, so maybe it is time they reviewed their policy on this.

How is the LMA constituted Dave? Do you have OMOV for decisions over a certain size? If (say) you wanted to purchase or rent a flying site and the project was estimated to cost more than a certain % of the value of the LMA, how would the final decision be made?

[LMA Dave]

Hi Matty, No offence but the views I have expressed here were my own opinion as a member of this forum, they are not the views of the LMA. I am not getting drawn into politics between the two associations. As I have said I am not a BMFA member nor do I want to be at this moment in time. 

I do however, feel as a fellow model flyer that there is an in justice towards the BMFA country members over not being able to vote.

Edited By LMA Dave on 19/01/2017 20:12:18

Edited By LMA Dave on 19/01/2017 20:14:14

[MattyB]

Posted by LMA Dave on 19/01/2017 19:57:19:

Hi Matty, No offence but the views I have expressed here were my own opinion as a member of this forum, they are not the views of the LMA. I am not getting drawn into politics between the two associations. As I have said I am not a BMFA member nor do I want to be at this moment in time.

Apologies, but I think you have misunderstood. The questions I asked above are genuine, and I am not asking for "the views of the LMA". I am not being combative - I would just like to understand how the LMA constitution/Articles of Association are put together. I looked on the LMA website, but could not find this information. Is it published online somewhere?

Edited By MattyB on 20/01/2017 00:03:23