Whats The Future Hold One Man's Opinion

[ChrisB]

If we're talking about shows then I think there is some mileage in some of the comments.

As an LMA member and long time visitor to both LMA and non-LMA events I can see the benefits of having some 'mixed' events. In terms of public BMFA events, i'm not familiar with any, other than the NATs.

Obviously events such as Weston Park, Woodsprings, Wings and Wheels and Long Marston include large models, but are run by independent groups.

I must admit that in recent years the LMA events have, in general, lost their wow factor. The pyros are good, as was the 3 ship Lanc, Vulcan and Victor formation at Elvington, but when compared to the mid/late 90's, Whether thats the limited backing music during bombing sequences, flying to music, commentary or something else, I'm not sure but the shows seem to have lost their way, while others appear to flourish.

The other thing I have noticed in recent times is the speed with which the slots are rotated. It used to be about 3 hours for a model to re-appear in the air, now its about half that time, but there are lots of models on the flight line that don't fly. Fair enough, as some may be static only, or the weather is not right, or tech faults, but years ago there were as many models, so whats changed? Are there less display pilots than years ago?

Clearly the trade world has and is changing and traders seem to come and go in different numbers at different shows and thats obviously due to cost/benefit, but perhaps a mix of 'general' models and 'show' models would add to the mix somewhat and may encourage traders to attend events, as there seems to be a decline in the number attending LMA events.

If we're talking about model flying in general then I think local clubs are the backbone of the hobby and individuals in clubs do the hard work, with the assistance of the BMFA. However, perhaps the LMA is the more public face of the hobby, such as RAF Cosford show, Elvington and XH558 etc.

Cheers

CB

Edited By ChrisB on 08/09/2015 19:54:39

Edited By ChrisB on 08/09/2015 19:55:52

[Simon Wright]

Not sure if I agree with many of the points made by the OP. I too am a member of both BMFA and LMA and think both do a fairly good job. The LMA impresses me most as it is but a big club run by volunteers.

I went to the Nats and traveled to most of the control line circles and all flight lines apart from the heli line. the FPV racing had a big attendance and I went away quietly impressed that the BMFA had taken this new part of the hobby under its wing (excuse the pun).

I do think the Cat man does have one valid point and it was something that a group of us discussed at the Nats. As a BMFA event perhaps the showline should put 2 or 3 15 minute displays on each day displaying models that are flown by average club members. . Nothing too long or stressfull, half a dozen trainers doing ROG, a couple of circuits or 8s, then touch and go's, then typical sporters, small scale, warbirds, aerobats etc. In fact a display of the type of models that are readily available on the trade line. Perhaps it should be classed as a BMFA flying slot?

The LMA is a different matter, its purpose as implied by the name is LARGE models so there is little reason to promote the smaller off the shelf models. To be fair they do normally demonstrate a couple of LMA trainers though. Perhaps, if there was a BMFA type club flying team, they would allow something smaller to fly during the day as a promotion of the hobby as a whole?

[ChrisB]

If I remember correctly the LMA did at one point some years ago have a non large model/BMFA slot at one of their shows. It was a "club model" type slot. Maybe one for future discussion in the LMA and or BMFA?

[Erfolg]

Eflightray is absolutely correct, there are far more relevant activities that are appropriate to schools than model aircraft as many of us see them.

Potentially programming a quad type model for flight and control, although I would see such an exercise as a consequence of some other activity, such as programming.

[John Howes]

Posted by Mr Brown Cat on 08/09/2015 07:20:05:

OP I agree, although I think your observations can be aimed also at this forum, and most of the paper publications.

They're about 20 years behind the curve.

I get my instruction from the internet, excellent sites like flitetest for example. My instructor is the WWW. He doesn't charge and never answers back.

The stuffy "rules are rules" approach of the BMFA is a massive turn off, and the treatment of parkflyers and Quad flyers as some kind of temporary annoyance is patronising and short sighted.

The majority of model flying is now in this form, so the concentration on massive gliders and F3A seems quaint to many new to the hobby like myself.

If these organisations don't adapt quickly, they'll wither and die.

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

Posted by John Howes on 10/09/2015 13:12:14:

Posted by Mr Brown Cat on 08/09/2015 07:20:05:

The stuffy "rules are rules" approach of the BMFA is a massive turn off, and the treatment of parkflyers and Quad flyers as some kind of temporary annoyance is patronising and short sighted.

Can you give an example of this treatment?

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Look on Doms Nats video threads is that the BMFA hosting Quad comps, park flyers being flown of an evening also, you got some popcorn in your eye ?

John

[Martyn K]

Posted by John Howes on 10/09/2015 13:12:14:

Posted by Mr Brown Cat on 08/09/2015 07:20:05:

OP I agree, although I think your observations can be aimed also at this forum, and most of the paper publications.

They're about 20 years behind the curve.

I get my instruction from the internet, excellent sites like flitetest for example. My instructor is the WWW. He doesn't charge and never answers back.

The stuffy "rules are rules" approach of the BMFA is a massive turn off, and the treatment of parkflyers and Quad flyers as some kind of temporary annoyance is patronising and short sighted.

The majority of model flying is now in this form, so the concentration on massive gliders and F3A seems quaint to many new to the hobby like myself.

If these organisations don't adapt quickly, they'll wither and die.

Sorry, but I am lost with this argument/discussion

Where is the concentration on Massive Gliders and F3A? The BMFA have delegated responsibility for both to BARCS and the GBR/CAA for competitions and development of the classes and rules. If its not competition then it is sport flying and has the same standing as any club/individual flying activity. It's simply what some people choose to do with their time and money and is one of the wonderful things about this hobby, the breadth is incredible and flyers can chop and change as their heart and mind dictates. Personally, I would like to see far more involvement in competition but as we have discussed elsewhere, that is unlikely to happen in the near future.

<snip>If these organisations don't adapt quickly, they'll wither and die.

Which organisations?

Martyn

[Andy48]

Posted by Erfolg on 10/09/2015 12:18:00:

Potentially programming a quad type model for flight and control, although I would see such an exercise as a consequence of some other activity, such as programming.

Pupils, even at primary schools, have been taught activities like this as part of the National Curriculum since the late 80s'.

[ChrisB]

Posted by John Howes on 10/09/2015 13:12:14:

Posted by Mr Brown Cat on 08/09/2015 07:20:05:

OP I agree, although I think your observations can be aimed also at this forum, and most of the paper publications.

They're about 20 years behind the curve.

I get my instruction from the internet, excellent sites like flitetest for example. My instructor is the WWW. He doesn't charge and never answers back.

The stuffy "rules are rules" approach of the BMFA is a massive turn off, and the treatment of parkflyers and Quad flyers as some kind of temporary annoyance is patronising and short sighted.

The majority of model flying is now in this form, so the concentration on massive gliders and F3A seems quaint to many new to the hobby like myself.

If these organisations don't adapt quickly, they'll wither and die.

I think its a bit steep to say Stuffy rules. What rules do the BMFA set?

The CAA sets the rules in CAP 658, and over 20 kg. The BMFA provide good practice/guidelines and advice..not rules. Yes there are competiton rules, or BMFA affiliation rules (conditions of membership). Believe it or not you can fly a model solo without an A cert. It isn't a rule, its just advice that you have one and its for the club/group/individual to decide accordingly.

CB

[ken anderson.]

The stuffy "rules are rules" approach of the BMFA is a massive turn off, and the treatment of parkflyers and Quad flyers as some kind of temporary annoyance is patronising and short sighted.

The majority of model flying is now in this form, so the concentration on massive gliders and F3A seems quaint to many new to the hobby like myself.

If these organisations don't adapt quickly, they'll wither and die.

...........................................................................................................................................................

bold statement from a new flyer...the majority of model flying is now in this form...is it?...how do you arrive at that conclusion? please share your info etc?

ken anderson...ne...1 curious dept.

[Peter Miller]

Posted by Andy48 on 08/09/2015 12:28:20:

Posted by Mr Brown Cat on 07/09/2015 20:52:06:

The one thing that can be predicted is without a united effort by all modellers working with schools to educate in a fun and entertaining manner, accidents will happen.

 

Forget kids in schools. My last job was a Technician ina Upper School. They ran a special exhibition and show for the new intake of 13 year olds.

There were stands for just about every hobby and past time you could think of.

I was asked to provide one on aeromodelling. I had models there,a Video running of models, free copies of magazines. It was a pretty impressive stand if I do say so myself.

The kids all came round and they could ask questions etc. Of course it was only some 300 youngsters.

I was overwhelmed with three questions!!! No one wanted a free magazine. No one stopped to watch the video.

Maybe a few years down the line one or two might have been inspired to look into modelling further but I doubt it.

So the idea of modellers working with schools would be one bloke sitting in a class room waiting for customers.

[Erfolg]

The structures of the BMFA does belong to an earlier era, such as the voting system, the process/procedure of raising issues. Yet I do not think for one minute that these issues are relevant to the future of this hobby.

There was a time when railway steam trains were new and very novel, at this time the public would come out in their legions just to stand and stare, as a train passed. Children wanted to be engine drivers etc. There was a time when the sound barrier was seen as a very exciting concept, could it be broken etc. In this era my granddaughters hear and see Tornadoes and Euro fighters hurtle up and down the coast and do not raise their heads from what ever they are doing. Aircraft are passe, to kids.

In general, as has been stated so many times, making things is not very exciting, or attractive to many in their youth, in this era.

If programming quads and the like, is what kids do in school, that is perhaps the nearest that many will come to doing the things that I do enjoy.

Ironically the BMFA are trying to come up with a "A" type test for quads. I personally have difficulty in seeing quads as necessarily requiring hand eye co-ordination discipline. I suspect the future for quads is one where when things go wrong, the quad shuts itself down descending to the ground safely under control of pre set systems, the equivalent of a "fail safe" for 2.4. But the point is, the BMFA is trying to be relevant, even if in the short or long term the direction is away from manual intervention as per the "A" test.

I am not aware that the BMFA are anti quads. They even seem to have had quad racing at the Nationals this year.

Fortunately, at present there are a enough middle aged and older people joining our hobby.

In my opinion the real issue is protecting existing flying sites and getting the NT on side for electric sport flying. Sort out today, then there could be a tomorrow for future aero modellers.

 

Edited By Erfolg on 10/09/2015 20:18:06

[ChrisB]

I started as an 11 year old, but I'd been brought up with aircraft, going to shows, plane spotting etc. Now, 23 years on myself and my father are still building and flying. It is difficult to get youngsters interested in the hobby, especially if they don't have a general interest in aviation from an early age.

We recently had a group of about 6 children aged about 13 visit our field. One of our members is a design technology teacher and as an end of year event he brought 6 lads to the field for a flight experience day. They were all very interested and several picked it up very quickly, especially as none of them had flown before. Apparently they all spoke about it for several days afterwards.

Maybe in a few years, when they have their own transport and money they may take it up. Unless they have support from family members it is difficult.

In my earlier posts I mentioned publicising shows and having a wow factor so more day trippers attend and perhaps get into the hobby, rather than making them public fly-in type events. Its ok looking after ourselves now, but what about in years to come.

CB

[Don Fry]

Long and short, if the bug do do models is planted, one day it sprouts, and then it will grow. My big fear is I am on the flight line one day. A young one comes along, gets his machine out, and then does 2 slow rolls, down the flight line, at 2 meters altitude, programmed inputs. I swallow, cross everything and say, yea, but I can do that manually. He says why. Then I will be past it. And that day is not far off. Things change. I do not accept that today's young are only receptive to instant results. They will work to get skills just as hard as every generation before them. Those that don't are called that traditional description, unskilled canon fodder. Except footballers and celebs.

[mightypeesh]

Mr BC has been very quiet - Bit of throw a grenade in the room and then walk off?

[John Howes]

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 10/09/2015 14:19:10:

Posted by John Howes on 10/09/2015 13:12:14:

Posted by Mr Brown Cat on 08/09/2015 07:20:05:

The stuffy "rules are rules" approach of the BMFA is a massive turn off, and the treatment of parkflyers and Quad flyers as some kind of temporary annoyance is patronising and short sighted.

Can you give an example of this treatment?

I get this treatment for example any time I suggest teaching yourself. Because it's easy.

The combined might of the "boring brigade" decends to call me an idiot.

Coming here to seek ideas and help others, I often leave very disalusioned with the so called experts on the forum. They often seem more keen to point out thier knowledge of the BMFA hand book than offer any encouragement.

Some parts of this forum are good, but the new flyer sections are patronising and full of rule sprouting trolls.

I fly on a large Park in Worcester where I've met loads of great flyers, happy to give the support and advice seriously lacking in here. Most are fans of flitetest, a site dedicated to real modern Park flyers, unlike the BMFA magazine which dedicates page after page to F3A, and little Jonny who just got his A-cert (big deal) and dire warnings to drone flyers.

Where's the fun?

[KingKade]

Posted by mightypeesh on 10/09/2015 21:22:35:

Mr BC has been very quiet - Bit of throw a grenade in the room and then walk off?

Its been 3 days since OP!

Anything to add? Mr Brown Cat.

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

So that treatment isn't from the BMFA then.

Judging by your comments regarding the BMFA news it appears you haven't looked at it.

[Peter Jenkins]

Dear John Howes, without wishing to be classed as one of the "boring brigage" I would just observe that by an act of Parliament there is an instrument called the Air Navigation Order (ANO) that governs the use of all the airspace in the UK. In case you were unaware of this, there is no such thing as private airspace, the ANO covers you as soon as you get airborne with a model or full size aircraft. The "rules for rules" sake may be so but most are merely a rehash of what the legal position is as regards operating in the UK's national airspace as set out by an act of Parliament.

Clubs make rules which if you wish to belong to that Club you have to follow. The BMFA makes recommendations provides helpful interpretation of the ANO and uses the combined wisdom in the model aircraft world to develop recommendations that improve safety for all and that keep you within the law. The law requires that the pilot of a model or full size aircraft must be confident that they can complete their flight safely before taking off. This is as much to protect you as the general public. If you cause an accident with your park flyer e.g. a small child loses the sight of an eye after being hit in the face following a loss of control due to either pilot or equipment error, it is you who can be sued for damages, which in such a case, could be substantial particularly if it can be shown that you have ignored "the rules". As the law states "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

[John Howes]

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 10/09/2015 23:05:43:

So that treatment isn't from the BMFA then.

Judging by your comments regarding the BMFA news it appears you haven't looked at it.

Free Flight? Really? That's the front page?

Wow!

[John Howes]

Posted by Peter Jenkins on 10/09/2015 23:34:37:

Dear John Howes, without wishing to be classed as one of the "boring brigage" I would just observe that by an act of Parliament there is an instrument called the Air Navigation Order (ANO) that governs the use of all the airspace in the UK. In case you were unaware of this, there is no such thing as private airspace, the ANO covers you as soon as you get airborne with a model or full size aircraft. The "rules for rules" sake may be so but most are merely a rehash of what the legal position is as regards operating in the UK's national airspace as set out by an act of Parliament.

Clubs make rules which if you wish to belong to that Club you have to follow. The BMFA makes recommendations provides helpful interpretation of the ANO and uses the combined wisdom in the model aircraft world to develop recommendations that improve safety for all and that keep you within the law. The law requires that the pilot of a model or full size aircraft must be confident that they can complete their flight safely before taking off. This is as much to protect you as the general public. If you cause an accident with your park flyer e.g. a small child loses the sight of an eye after being hit in the face following a loss of control due to either pilot or equipment error, it is you who can be sued for damages, which in such a case, could be substantial particularly if it can be shown that you have ignored "the rules". As the law states "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

Thanks for proving my point

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

Posted by John Howes on 10/09/2015 23:35:15:

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 10/09/2015 23:05:43:

So that treatment isn't from the BMFA then.

Judging by your comments regarding the BMFA news it appears you haven't looked at it.

Free Flight? Really? That's the front page?

Wow!

You seem to be saying the BMFA news shouldnt cover all disciplines? There is a sizable number very active in the free flight fraternity. The BMFA embraces all disciplines, as I would suggest does this forum ( which is nothing to do with the BMFA btw) seems to me that it is perhaps you that is somewhat blinkered in your outlook.

[mightypeesh]

Like I said. Throw in a grenade and leave the room.

It's poor 'little Jonny' that I feel sorry for just by getting his 5 minutes of fame. Why is it always the kids that suffer?

Seriously though this thread does seem to be getting a bit out of control considering the initiator has gone awol. Maybe he just likes stirring thing up. It seems to be degenerating into points scoring when really what is the problem?

Forums are a bit like the modern equivelant of magazines - you find one you like that suits your needs. If it is rcgroups, flitetest or whatever then so be it. Go to wherever you feel at home and where you feel the information you seek is best. Like different flying diciplines surely there is room for all?

I come here for exchange of skills and advice in a friendly enviroment and see it as a very welcome extention to the hobby and appreciate the time and thought that forum members put in to threads and replys. We still have not quite worked out why Mr BC started this thread here - it is everybody else that is getting the stress from it.

Well....... Mr BC?

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Aye little Jonny always cops for it, seems him and his old fella having a bit of fun/pleasure winds some folk up, I reckon they're just small minded myself, kids flying models ...it's the future

Where's the stress Simon, lot of nonsense.

John